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Ju87s

Buff Idea for Manual Secondaries

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I was thinking that this skill needs a buff. It's very expensive at 4 points, so it shouldn't be as sacrificial as it is: completely turning off secondaries if nothing is manually selected. I think that if no target is selected or if the selected target is out of range, then the secondaries should behave as they would normally, firing on any target in their range automatically with no bonus to accuracy, but once the target is selected, then they focus in on that single target. With manual AA, the AA still works as normal when nothing is targetted, so why give the shaft to secondary builds compared to AA builds?

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Because then it's too powerful. 

Even with the current setup, I can easily get 200-300 secondary hits and almost as much damage as from my main guns. Remember that the manual secondaries also gives a buff to both range and accuracy for those guns. 

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4 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Because then it's too powerful. 

Even with the current setup, I can easily get 200-300 secondary hits and almost as much damage as from my main guns. Remember that the manual secondaries also gives a buff to both range and accuracy for those guns. 

No it doesn't. It only buffs the accuracy and that's it.

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9 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Because then it's too powerful. 

Even with the current setup, I can easily get 200-300 secondary hits and almost as much damage as from my main guns. Remember that the manual secondaries also gives a buff to both range and accuracy for those guns. 

Not to be rude, but if that's true, then you really need to work at aiming your main guns better. I'll usually do about 100-110k damage in an average game with my GK, or about 80 something K in my Tirptiz, with main armament. My damage from secondaries never comes anywhere remotely close to those numbers.  Also, no, manual secondaries do not buff the range to the guns.

Edited by Ju87s
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1 minute ago, Ju87s said:

Not to be rude, but if that's true, then you're really bad at aiming your main guns. I'll usually do about 100-110k damage in an average game with my GK, or about 80 something K in my Tirptiz, with main armament. My damage from secondaries never comes anywhere remotely close to those numbers.  Also, no, manual secondaries do not buff the range to the guns.

BFT buffs the reload time
AFT buffs the range
MFCS buffs the accuracy
No single skill buffs two aspects of secondary batteries. 
Secondary batteries only do real damage to destroyers and cruisers, and simply pick and pin BBs while setting some fires on occasion. The only way to get the most damage out of it is running IFHE, but then you waste those 4 points on it.  You also lose out on the fire chance. 

If your secondaries do as much as your main guns, then you must have terrible aim and/or shotplacement. Your mainguns can easily break 100k every match, but for 300 hits you at best do maybe 15-20k damage if it was focused largely on destroyers and weak cruisers. Most of your damage from secondaries actually comes from the fires they set, which is a different aspect. 
As Flamu says for Bismarck, avoid over-reliance on secondaries! 
They are not a main damage dealer, they are not there to make you a god inside their range, and you shouldn't close distances just to get into secondary range. They're a bonus, treat it as such. The true strengths are the armor and the main battery of the ships. 
I run full secondary build on my Bismarck but instead of the +20% Secondary range module, I run the Gun Accuracy module actually. This makes my real firepower more deadly and reliable. The Secondaries have a 9.9km range with flag, which is plenty. 

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13 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Because then it's too powerful. 

Even with the current setup, I can easily get 200-300 secondary hits and almost as much damage as from my main guns. Remember that the manual secondaries also gives a buff to both range and accuracy for those guns. 

No it wouldn't be and you are mistaken about what the skill does. It gives 15% (T1-T6) or 60% (T7-T10) better dispersion to the secondary guns ONLY. There is no range or damage increase.  The issue is they ONLY fire when a target is selected and the ones on the other side of the ship won't shoot.

That skill really should work the same way Manual AA works. With Manual AA the AA guns work automatically until a target is selected and then the guns that can fire at the selected target get a 100% damage increase but the rest can still shoot at other planes. I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to the Manual Secondary Guns skill too.

The guns could work normally/automatically unless you select a target. IF you select a target the secondary guns that can fire at it will and they will get that 60% dispersion bonus. The rest of the guns can fire at other targets normally. 

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I tried offering my idea for a buff and was flatly told it was already strong enough.

Don't expect people to take to any ideas of buffing Manual Secondaries. To them it's "use your main guns".

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5 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

It doesn't need a buff. 

Think so? Just seems to me like more and more people are abandoning secondary builds for tank/survivability/mainguns builds.

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1 minute ago, Ju87s said:

Think so? Just seems to me like more and more people are abandoning secondary builds for tank/survivability/mainguns builds.

Because cruisers learned they didn't need to do anything but spam HE and start fires on battleships to even the score.

Why chase destroyers when they can rack up big damage numbers with fires and earn easy silver?

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7 minutes ago, Ju87s said:

Think so? Just seems to me like more and more people are abandoning secondary builds for tank/survivability/mainguns builds.

As Brandon pointed out it's not due to manual secondaries needing a buff. It is due to a change in the meta and not being able to get in secondary range due to focus fire.

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Just now, RipNuN2 said:

As Brandon pointed out it's not due to manual secondaries needing a buff. It is due to a change in the meta and not being able to get in secondary range due to focus fire.

I didn't say secondaries didn't need a buff.

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ah... my favorite topic....manual secondarys.... The infamous skill that gives you a -60% dispersion off of an unknown dispersion starting point...... WHILE, get this.......also disallowing at a minimum 50% of your secondary's to fire at all even if there are other ships 2k away. 

This skill is arguably the biggest con in the game.

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Visually ...Secondaries are awesome. As for damage and hitting things ----Hey look over there ---- visually--- secondaries are awesome!

My experience with them in BBs built for 2nds --- they tend to on average 150hp to 200 maybe 300 per hit - when they hit anything even with 4 point skills.

They hit BBs more often

They hit Cruisers a little less often than BBs.

and DDs [edited] ----a fleeing moving zig zigzag'ing DD - did I mention how secondaries look visually awesome? A broadside, slow moving DD..yeah they might hit a few times more.

When I play my DD's --- pffftt a BB with maxed secondaries - I can honestly say - a BB with maxed secondaries - not a care in the world about them!

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I think get away with not being able to shoot unless targeted give a base 10% accuracy buff and decrease the manual accuracy buff to 50%

And for the low tier buff add an extra 10% base range as well even with the extra 10% base accuracy for a only 25% accuracy is still paltry for a 4 point skill

Edited by Jerkster

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1 minute ago, Sweetsie said:

ah... my favorite topic....manual secondarys.... The infamous skill that gives you a -60% dispersion off of an unknown dispersion starting point...... WHILE, get this.......also disallowing at a minimum 50% of your secondary's to fire at all even if there are other ships 2k away. 

This skill is arguably the biggest con in the game.

Lol right?

It's one of those troll skills that lures certain players to spend for it, thinking they're actually benefiting from it.

I believe the devs put it there just for laughs.

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1 hour ago, OgreMkV said:

Because then it's too powerful. 

Even with the current setup, I can easily get 200-300 secondary hits and almost as much damage as from my main guns. Remember that the manual secondaries also gives a buff to both range and accuracy for those guns. 

I take it you don't play secondary builds, or you're really bad with main guns.

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1 hour ago, BrandonKF said:

I tried offering my idea for a buff and was flatly told it was already strong enough.

Don't expect people to take to any ideas of buffing Manual Secondaries. To them it's "use your main guns".

I remember that and it's still true.

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6 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

I remember that and it's still true.

It isn't. Though I do enjoy a few of the ideas presented here.

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43 minutes ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Secondaries need a buff across the board for the most part.

Absolutely this.  Secondaries without relevant skills are absolutely useless and secondaries WITH skills are struggling to even be mediocre.  Don't get me wrong,  I don't think secondaries should ever be a main form of damage but I think if you focus on them they ought to be good.

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A full secondary build Bismarck or Tirpitz already has an 11k zone of magic death ray surrounding them, I'm against anything that would make that worse. A DD or CA coming within 11k basically takes auto-damage just for being in range as is.

Shorter version: NO

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2 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

No it wouldn't be and you are mistaken about what the skill does. It gives 15% (T1-T6) or 60% (T7-T10) better dispersion to the secondary guns ONLY. There is no range or damage increase.  The issue is they ONLY fire when a target is selected and the ones on the other side of the ship won't shoot.

That skill really should work the same way Manual AA works. With Manual AA the AA guns work automatically until a target is selected and then the guns that can fire at the selected target get a 100% damage increase but the rest can still shoot at other planes. I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to the Manual Secondary Guns skill too.

The guns could work normally/automatically unless you select a target. IF you select a target the secondary guns that can fire at it will and they will get that 60% dispersion bonus. The rest of the guns can fire at other targets normally. 

In a nutshell, This one.

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I really like manual secondaries on my German BBs, even if other builds like CE/FP are generally better on battleships. I love the sheer intimidation that comes from this hallucinating rain of HE fire.

That being said, I like the OP's idea. When I play German BBs, I often forget about the secondaries in the middle of a pitched battle and won't immediately notice that some enemy ships have come within range. In fact, when I *don't* have the skill slotted, I can usually count on my secondaries giving me immediate warning of just spotted enemy DD trying to torp me, an advantage I lose when I have Manual Secondaries equipped.

So yeah, I'd love for them to always fire, but have the accuracy buff only apply when I ctrl-clicked a target.

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3 hours ago, OgreMkV said:

Because then it's too powerful. 

Even with the current setup, I can easily get 200-300 secondary hits and almost as much damage as from my main guns. Remember that the manual secondaries also gives a buff to both range and accuracy for those guns. 

This man Bismarcks.

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