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AMajor

What is it with Tier V IJN and USN dds?

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Is there a good reason for me to hold on to my Tier V USN and IJN dds if I have their Tier VI replacements?  I still have the Isokaze (IJN) and Clemson (USN) Tier IV dds and enjoy their play immensely.  I am very much enjoying learning the Tier VI Fabuki's (IJN) torp play and the amazing ROF of the Farragut's guns (USN).  Holding my own against the bots in Co-Op play and even when I get zapped in Random, it's my decisions and not my hardware that is tripping me up.

That leaves two "orphan" Tier V ships,  the Minikaze (IJN) and the NIcholas (USN).  Is their any reason for me to keep them?  In all honesty, I'm not a fan of either ship.   My win rate in the Minikaze is 37% with 9,800 average damage and although my WR numbers are better with the NIck, my damage points are not good.  I will keep them and play them more if they help me play their Tier VI upgrades better.  If they won't, then it's time to cut the deadwood lose.

Been reading other forum posts, Ytube videos, etc.  Doesn't seem to be a lot of love for Tier V WOWs dds.  Given my experience so far, I am hesitant with moving up with my other dd lines.  Both my V-170 (German) and SHenyang (pan Asian) dd have close to a 60% WR with around 15,000 average damage.  Don't want to waste my time if the T-22 (German) and Jianwei (pan Asian) are as much of a disappointment as the other Tier V dds. 

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I would say just the ships that you want/do good in. 

I pretty much keep everything, but I have port slots to spare.

Remember, you could always buy them back with credits.

When you sell, I would suggest destroying upgrades using credits instead of paying doubloons.

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The T5 DD ARE much lamer than their T4 counterparts. It's mostly due to MM, though almost every T4 DD is good to great, and almost every T5 DD is average at best, for their tier.

I doubt things will ever be as good for you, ever again, (as a DD player) as they are a T4. Keep some T4 DD, that's for sure.

However - I suggest you push through to T7, which, like T4, also benefits from beneficial MM.

(Jianwei is awful, though T22 is a decent torpedo boat; but both the T6s are decent - esp Fushun - and the T7s are good (Maas) and great (Gadja).

EDIT: Fun fact - except for slightly shorter ranged torps (but Farragut cannot stealth torp either) the Nicholas has better hard stats than the Farragut - stealthier, more agile, faster, equal dpm, more torpedoes, has alternate guns, has more hitpoints). In theory, it's flat out better than the T6....  My 10c as to why it is worse - it sits much higher in the water and is about 50% larger a target.

Edited by evilleMonkeigh

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Don't know much about the T-22.  Liked the V-170 alright, but I'm not a dd main, so i'm probably not the best one t answer your questions. Keep what you enjoy and sell what you don't like.

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Though I have played some of everything, I am very much a DD main. Currently, I have one tech-tree Tier V DD in my port (Jianwei), and that is because it is still too new for me to have decided whether to keep it or not. In my opinion, the old IJN Isokaze and Minekaze used to set the effectiveness bar very high, which led to disappointment in the Tier VI Mutsuki. The IJN DD changes nerfed the Isokaze and Minekaze, which made the change to Tier VI seem less disappointing, but made the Isokaze and Minekaze less effective. Unless you are a serious history buff (USS Nicholas, along with USS O'Bannon and USS Taylor, was awarded the honor of escorting the USS Missouri into Tokyo Bay for the Japanese surrender ceremony for her importance to the efforts in the Pacific Naval Theater, particularly early on in the war) I would sell her. Same with the Minekaze. They are not, in my opinion, worth hanging on to as anything other than ornament or historical importance. Especially if you are short on space in your port.

Respects,

Am

(*edited for clarity)

Edited by Amracil

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Unless you are good with mini-map awareness, concealment use, and stalking targets into point-blank range without being seen; Mutsuki isn't worth keeping.

Minekaze I can't comment on, because I didn't keep it very long, and its cousins; Apple, Pumpkin, and Blueberry are a whole different beast. (Kamikaze, Fujin, and Kamikaze-R.)

Nicholas can be a keeper because it can equip Defensive Fire at T5, which can occasionally be a real shock to low tier CVs; but many would argue that Clemson is still a better destroyer, and Farragut certainly is.

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4 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Unless you are good with mini-map awareness, concealment use, and stalking targets into point-blank range without being seen; Mutsuki isn't worth keeping.

Minekaze I can't comment on, because I didn't keep it very long, and its cousins; Apple, Pumpkin, and Blueberry are a whole different beast. (Kamikaze, Fujin, and Kamikaze-R.)

Nicholas can be a keeper because it can equip Defensive Fire at T5, which can occasionally be a real shock to low tier CVs; but many would argue that Clemson is still a better destroyer, and Farragut certainly is.

I have to disagree with @Estimated_Prophet on this subject;

Minikaze is a monster in the right hands, and one of the main reasons she was hit so hard with the nerf-bat was her ability to wreak havoc on enemy BBs. She is much less than she used to be, but still very deadly. If you're not having success with Mini you're definitely doing it wrong.

Nicholas suffers from 2 issues; 1). She cannot stealth torp and 2). She gets hammered by tier 5 MM. IMHO Farragut is definitely not a better DD; she has bargain basement hit points, crap AA, and fewer torps, though her torps do get an extra 0.9 K range. Nicholas would be seriously OP with those torps, or any torps which would allow her to stealth fire.

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Grinding through I usually sold off the old ships.  Since I do a lot of training and instruction for clan members wanting to improve their performance I have ended up buying back tons of ships.

My best suggestion for guys wanting to improve is join one of the competitive clans.  Most have a training farm teaching guys the ins and outs of the business.  Forums and videos will never get as in depth or explain things as thoroughly.  I know theres guys out there thinking they dont have the stats to join, and they might not for the top teams in the clan, but its always possible to join, learn and improve, them work your way up.  It never hurts to ask.

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

Nicholas suffers from 2 issues; 1). She cannot stealth torp and 2). She gets hammered by tier 5 MM. IMHO Farragut is definitely not a better DD; she has bargain basement hit points, crap AA, and fewer torps, though her torps do get an extra 0.9 K range. Nicholas would be seriously OP with those torps, or any torps which would allow her to stealth fire.

Perhaps true, but Farragut has the unmeasurable advantage called 'I like it.'

I may actually suck wind in Farragut, but my perception is that I do well, and that means a lot.

Classic example is Leander. Other players swear by that thing; but I hate it with a passion; mainly because 'my perception' is that SAP is worthless, and doesn't do any useful damage to anything; even though my actual average damage in it isn't that far off the WST listed average.

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23 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

but Farragut has the unmeasurable advantage called 'I like it.'

And that is what it all boils down to; personal choice. Though you do have a marked tendency to do well in ships others disdain!

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4 hours ago, AMajor said:

Is there a good reason for me to hold on to my Tier V USN and IJN dds if I have their Tier VI replacements?  I still have the Isokaze (IJN) and Clemson (USN) Tier IV dds and enjoy their play immensely.  I am very much enjoying learning the Tier VI Fabuki's (IJN) torp play and the amazing ROF of the Farragut's guns (USN).  Holding my own against the bots in Co-Op play and even when I get zapped in Random, it's my decisions and not my hardware that is tripping me up.

That leaves two "orphan" Tier V ships,  the Minikaze (IJN) and the NIcholas (USN).  Is their any reason for me to keep them?  In all honesty, I'm not a fan of either ship.   My win rate in the Minikaze is 37% with 9,800 average damage and although my WR numbers are better with the NIck, my damage points are not good.  I will keep them and play them more if they help me play their Tier VI upgrades better.  If they won't, then it's time to cut the deadwood lose.

Been reading other forum posts, Ytube videos, etc.  Doesn't seem to be a lot of love for Tier V WOWs dds.  Given my experience so far, I am hesitant with moving up with my other dd lines.  Both my V-170 (German) and SHenyang (pan Asian) dd have close to a 60% WR with around 15,000 average damage.  Don't want to waste my time if the T-22 (German) and Jianwei (pan Asian) are as much of a disappointment as the other Tier V dds. 

After tier 4 you keep the Akizuki, Kagero, maybe the Akatsuki, and there is nothing after Shima, so it really doesn't matter at that point. USN, the Fletcher, the whole Fletcher, and nothing but the Fletcher.

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I only have the IJN DDs. The Minekaze is a good ship, and a fun torpedo boat. But I have the Kami R so that makes having the Minekaze obsolete for me. Looks like you are more comfortable with a more balanced, gun boat DD, so pure torp DDs may be a steep learning curve. But if you're enjoying it, keep it. 

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:35 PM, AMajor said:

Is their any reason for me to keep them?  In all honesty, I'm not a fan of either ship.

You answered your own question.  It's easy enough to buy them back if you decide to revisit the ships somewhere down the line.

  • Cool 1

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The T in T-22 stands for "turd"...I can't even remember how I powered through it anymore...the Gaede after it is okay. The 15cm is surprisingly accurate and it has decent torpedoes.

Tier 5 is a bad place to be in for pretty much any ship...you best save some FEXP or brace yourself for a bumpy ride.

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It is harder but I stealth torp with a Farragut quite regularly. I do have a 14 pt captain for her to bring her detection range to only .2 km larger than her torp range.  You can even hit those slow US standards if you let them get close enough. Just let them come to you, drop torps and peel away. Slower torps allow for them to close the range difference easier than faster ones. It does get you called a hacker some though. But back to point, I think the Farragut is a better boat which is why I kept it vs the Nicholas. Found it more fun to play. 

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On 2/19/2018 at 12:57 PM, pyantoryng said:

The T in T-22 stands for "turd"...I can't even remember how I powered through it anymore...the Gaede after it is okay. The 15cm is surprisingly accurate and it has decent torpedoes.

Tier 5 is a bad place to be in for pretty much any ship...you best save some FEXP or brace yourself for a bumpy ride.

Then you obviously haven't played it recently. It's got some of the best concealment in the game, in fact all those after it in the line have much worse concealment.
Used it quite often to get behind enemy lines and dismember CV's. That has it's own fun, for that alone.

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 Personally, I really like Nicholas- it's very effective!   Yes, being a tier V makes it MM's whipping boy, and the pve bots are beginning to be decidedly unkind to DD's at this tier, but it's fun to play.

  I like the 2 sided torpedo arrangement.  I frequently find myself wishing I had that second side of torpdeos in my other DD's, lol.  Can't argue with either set of guns- one has flatter arcs and is easier to hit with; the other reloads faster for extra DD tearing apart action in cap fights!   Once you get used to the 5"/38's, the lead time and effective range become second nature.

  As others have pointed out, Farragut is even better- and well worth the grind.

  To be honest, though- my favorite tier V DD is Podvoisky.   Gunboating is definitely to my taste- and this lil beast is insanely fast.   Enjoy it, and learn it well: You'll encounter it again at tier 7 in the form of Minsk (and Leningrad)- which is almost the same ship, with some incrimental improvements.

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I can't comment on the Minekaze anymore as the last time I played it was 2 years ago. The Nicholas however I've played over a year ago and recently.

The Nicholas is a really good ship, but it's not new player friendly. What makes the Nicholas good are the following.

  • Default hull has the 5''/51 guns. These are flat firing and extremely effective at range against enemy DD's. You can easily win a gun battle vs a Farragut with these guns.
  • Hit points, you have good hit points for your weight class at tier 5

Now, the issue with the above is, the Nicholas is entirely against the normal progression of ships to keep the A hull for the better guns. After Nicholas you're shoehorned into the 5''/38's which are good guns, but not great against enemy DD's over 6.5km away due to how much they arc making enemy DD's hard to hit with them doing hard turns. Knowing how and when to properly smoke up to use your guns in a low tier USA DD is what the Nicholas is good for teaching. The Torpedo's can also be very useful as you still have torps on both sides unlike Farragut which allows you to if you can get into a good ambush position to hammer a ship line with both sets. The short range means you really have to know what you're doing to make them work against tier 7 enemy vessels.

The main reason why most people do poorly in the Nicholas is that Tier 5 MM means you see up to tier 7 often. Due to the fact you don't have the best concealment and that the likelihood of you having a 10 point captain for concealment expert puts you at a disadvantage. The ship itself is a good ship, just it's at a tier that see's itself moved up vs hard targets where tier 4 has a safety net and the skills you need to make it succeed you don't usually get till tier 6/7.

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:35 PM, AMajor said:

Is there a good reason for me to hold on to my Tier V USN and IJN dds if I have their Tier VI replacements?  I still have the Isokaze (IJN) and Clemson (USN) Tier IV dds and enjoy their play immensely.  I am very much enjoying learning the Tier VI Fabuki's (IJN) torp play and the amazing ROF of the Farragut's guns (USN). 

I have found a reason to hold onto the Tier V dds.  In the USN dd line, there is a BIG change in gun arcs between the Tier IV Clemson and the rest of the ships up the line.  Playing the Nicholas let's me hone my gun aiming skills.  That is critical once you are in Random play with the Farragut since she has many more threats to face (radar cruisers, better carrier play, etc.).  Hitting what you aim at the first time is crucial to not losing HP early on in the match.  Playing the Nick is starting to make me better in the Farragut.

Same thing with the IJN line except that the aiming skill to practice is torps.

There IS a reason to spend time at each Tier.  You hone skills that you will need at the next step.

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thanks for your wisdom, professor

 

the Nicholas is a cow though.  I played it long long ago and didn't do well in it because I was nobob, but compared to other DDs it is way worse.  Get a T-22.  That is the best Tier V DD in the tech tree.

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I would have stopped at the Clemson, which I love for the gunplay and the relative protection of the +/- 1 matchmaking, except...

1) Most missions, tasks, challenges, etc. require at least a Tier V ship, and there are some tasks which are best performed by (or occasionally mandated to require) a destroyer of at least that tier. So the Nicholas was a must.

2) Operations require at least a Tier VI ship and occasionally taking a destroyer would be fun, so the beat goes on to at least one more Tier (I am 2/3 of the way through the Nicholas grind and see no reason not to finish it; I suspect that I will miss those double-sided torps, and wonder what I will get by way of compensation when I have fewer torpedoes and about the same number of gun barrels).

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On 2/19/2018 at 10:57 AM, pyantoryng said:

The T in T-22 stands for "turd"...I can't even remember how I powered through it anymore...the Gaede after it is okay. The 15cm is surprisingly accurate and it has decent torpedoes.

Tier 5 is a bad place to be in for pretty much any ship...you best save some FEXP or brace yourself for a bumpy ride.

It's one of the DD's that, when I see it, I think "I hope we get into a gun fight".

And I'm talking in the Kamikaze, not a great gun boat. The T-22 seems like a dreadful boat, but it maybe just newer players who haven't figured things out yet.

If anyone's been at the top of the leader broad at the end of the game, in the T-22, shout out, so I can say "Well done to You sir".

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I sold my USN, IJN, and KM T5 DDs mainly because of MM. I liked the USN and KM T5s but I know I will never play them again now that I have the T6s unlocked.

Maybe if I went back and put a 10 point commander in Mutsuki it might be better, but that is not worth it to me.

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