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Prothall

Please nerf coop bots - make them stupid

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Sometimes I just want to take out my Atlanta and blast stuff. Co-op is the ideal place to do this. I am noticing more and more that Co-op players are to o afraid to come out from behind their islands. The bots can actually shoot now and everyone is afraid to be the first person shot at.

I will wade in, get 2-3 kills and then die gloriously. I will then look at the map and see 4-5 players still taking the edge or hiding behind rocks. It is just co-op. Dumb it down, make the ships fire blanks, whatever you have to do. We need to get these people actually playing.

Oddly enough, it seems the higher tiers are the worst at it. When I find myself in tier 9 matches it is always the Missouri or the Musashi that hides first. I guess the better the guns are the more eager people are to hide.

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16 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Sometimes I just want to take out my Atlanta and blast stuff. Co-op is the ideal place to do this. I am noticing more and more that Co-op players are to o afraid to come out from behind their islands. The bots can actually shoot now and everyone is afraid to be the first person shot at.

I will wade in, get 2-3 kills and then die gloriously. I will then look at the map and see 4-5 players still taking the edge or hiding behind rocks. It is just co-op. Dumb it down, make the ships fire blanks, whatever you have to do. We need to get these people actually playing.

Oddly enough, it seems the higher tiers are the worst at it. When I find myself in tier 9 matches it is always the Missouri or the Musashi that hides first. I guess the better the guns are the more eager people are to hide.

Bots are a little smarter in the high tiers.  But no, they don't need to be dumbed down.  if the players are going to be stupid like you describe, they deserve to lose.

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Bots are stupid already. In high tiers they shoot better and more accurately.

They are still dumb, following DDs, or picking the lowest HP ship. They still cheat on impossible torpedo beats, and they know when you target them. They had RPF even before we knew what it was. But dumbing them down? No. Make it more of a challenge.

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18 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

How is this different than high tier random battles?

Got a point there.. PT high tier matches are a campfest like you read about...

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18 minutes ago, alexf24 said:

Bots are stupid already. In high tiers they shoot better and more accurately.

They are still dumb, following DDs, or picking the lowest HP ship. They still cheat on impossible torpedo beats, and they know when you target them. They had RPF even before we knew what it was. But dumbing them down? No. Make it more of a challenge.

The majority of PVE players  do not play for the challenge. It's either to test/learn new ships or to " relax" 

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A lot of people are eternal cowards. Nothing WG can do will help that. I imagine that kind of person is more likely to be playing co-op than PvP.

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41 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Sometimes I just want to take out my Atlanta and blast stuff. Co-op is the ideal place to do this. I am noticing more and more that Co-op players are to o afraid to come out from behind their islands. The bots can actually shoot now and everyone is afraid to be the first person shot at.

I will wade in, get 2-3 kills and then die gloriously. I will then look at the map and see 4-5 players still taking the edge or hiding behind rocks. It is just co-op. Dumb it down, make the ships fire blanks, whatever you have to do. We need to get these people actually playing.

Oddly enough, it seems the higher tiers are the worst at it. When I find myself in tier 9 matches it is always the Missouri or the Musashi that hides first. I guess the better the guns are the more eager people are to hide.

Yeah have like 10k games in PvE and hardly ever see people camping behind islands or on the map edges. On the rare occasion someone is staying out of the fight, I always laugh to myself and think "more for me". Now at higher tiers you play a bit more cautiously, move slower and stick together a bit more because once the bots see you, they can and will rain death down on you so you tend to wait and see what they are doing before charging ahead. Personally I don't see a problem with PvE players hiding out. When you do that you don't generate damage and you can't make book. Nothing worse than taking out your tier 9 Missouri and performing badly and when you look to see your earnings, you make like 3000 credits. It is embarrassing. 

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48 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Sometimes I just want to take out my Atlanta and blast stuff. Co-op is the ideal place to do this. I am noticing more and more that Co-op players are to o afraid to come out from behind their islands. The bots can actually shoot now and everyone is afraid to be the first person shot at.

I will wade in, get 2-3 kills and then die gloriously. I will then look at the map and see 4-5 players still taking the edge or hiding behind rocks. It is just co-op. Dumb it down, make the ships fire blanks, whatever you have to do. We need to get these people actually playing.

Oddly enough, it seems the higher tiers are the worst at it. When I find myself in tier 9 matches it is always the Missouri or the Musashi that hides first. I guess the better the guns are the more eager people are to hide.

You and I are having very different experiences. I notice players doing anything they can for a kill. At least twice a day I watch someone with almost full health ram a bot that has less than 1K health, sacrificing themselves... just for a kill. I think the bots are a perfect balance of challenge, and quite frankly, due to the difficulty increase at higher tiers, I think the rewards should be increased quite a bit to better scale with the difficulty increase. Most of my AI matches are more challenging than my PvP matches because bots actually fight instead of hide and run, and the higher the tier, the more potent their accuracy. 

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I wrote an article a while ago about the cognitive dissonance evident in PvE players and got roasted for it. But I still feel its true. 

Despite experience, most PvE players refuse to recognize:

1. The bots are coming right down the middle. If you can't position yourself to get broadside shots, you're doing something wrong. Also, heading off to one of the wing caps is pointless. 

2. Bots don't care about caps. Don't try to "out cap" them.

3. Bots will target the closest threat, unless destroyers are nearby

 

Really, they're so predictable that they NEED to have super accuracy in order to avoid being boringly easy. It's not that the bots are hard, it's that the average PvE player plays them so poorly they make it more challenging than they have to. 

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5 minutes ago, DingBat said:

I wrote an article a while ago about the cognitive dissonance evident in PvE players and got roasted for it. But I still feel its true. 

Despite experience, most PvE players refuse to recognize:

1. The bots are coming right down the middle. If you can't position yourself to get broadside shots, you're doing something wrong. Also, heading off to one of the wing caps is pointless. 

2. Bots don't care about caps. Don't try to "out cap" them.

3. Bots will target the closest threat, unless destroyers are nearby

 

Really, they're so predictable that they NEED to have super accuracy in order to avoid being boringly easy. It's not that the bots are hard, it's that the average PvE player plays them so poorly they make it more challenging than they have to. 

LOL well they come down the middle on Standard battle mode unless a human DD is trying to "flank" them. Bots will cap, they tend to leave the cap if chasing a target but they will cap. Some will go straight for a cap late game instead of charging at the human players. Capping provides lots of xp for human players, ignore them and you earn less. Bots will almost always target the human ship with the least HPs, however they will shoot at perfect broadside targets as well even though they are not the closest. Setting up a broadside shot isn't that hard on bots, nor is it all that hard on humans. When bots come at you they stay angled and maneuver to avoid fire. If you charge them at an angle (assuming they have no torps) and keep your guns pointed to the side facing the bot, you just have to survive the incoming fire until you get broadsides and fire all your guns into their citadel. I do this all the time in BBs and delete them in one salvo. 

You may "feel" all of what you said is true but I am not going to validate your feelings. There is truth to it, just not always the case. Course I am not speaking from my feelings about it, just experience. Maybe that is the difference. 

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19 minutes ago, DingBat said:

I wrote an article a while ago about the cognitive dissonance evident in PvE players and got roasted for it. But I still feel its true. 

Despite experience, most PvE players refuse to recognize:

1. The bots are coming right down the middle. If you can't position yourself to get broadside shots, you're doing something wrong. Also, heading off to one of the wing caps is pointless. 

2. Bots don't care about caps. Don't try to "out cap" them.

3. Bots will target the closest threat, unless destroyers are nearby

 

Really, they're so predictable that they NEED to have super accuracy in order to avoid being boringly easy. It's not that the bots are hard, it's that the average PvE player plays them so poorly they make it more challenging than they have to. 

Points 1, 2, and 3 are wrong.

1. Bots will almost (ALMOST) always chase the low tier DD (woe to you if you are the ONLY DD) - even if said DD is not detected (because AI cheats know exactly where it is at all times). More than one (same low tier) DD?  - go to point number 2.

2. Bots will always defend a cap. They may not intentionally drive into it (unless a green DD is trying to cap - then it becomes a priority for them), but they sure as heck will shoot with nearly infallible accuracy any green ship in a cap - usually waiting until there is only 5 or less seconds left - and bam! RESET.

3. Bots will always, ALWAYS, target the lowest health ship on the map. I have seen them shoot across the map, more that 15 km to hit me when I'm lowest on health, even though there are green ships between me and them - INCLUDING SPOTTED DDs and full broadside cruisers.

Plus,

4. Bots will nearly always start a fire with the first HE hit. 

5. Bots know exactly when your guns are just about to reload AND WHAT AMMO IS LOADED. They will always angle into you if AP - even if they are fighting another, closer ship at the time (unless that ship is about to fire AP as well).

6. They can dodge torps as they come out of your tubes, regardless of whether the torps are detected or not. Their torp beats are UNICUM level. I've seen bot BBs do dodges that would put skilled DD players to shame. 

7. They almost always disable your torp tubes just as you are about to fire if you are brawling them. And they ALWAYS disable/destroy the LOADED launcher.

8. Dead bots almost always get a 'last ditch' attack as they die. Resulting in a full spread of highly accurate torpedoes (which remain unseen in many cases until right next to you), or a gun blast which miraculously does massive damage/cits.

9. Bot accuracy is amazing at times, depending on AI needs. For example: I had a game just today at tier 10 in my Yamato. There were two enemy Yamatos. They sailed full broadside to me for 5, yes FIVE, bow on salvos about 10 km away from me (that's 30 shells worth). I know EXACTLY where to aim to strike their massive citadels with my AP rounds. You know how many cits I got with the AI controlled RNG? ZERO. You know how many cits they got against me while I was bow on to them? THREE. 

10. Bot torpedoes can pull magical stunts. They can remain undetected despite Hydroacustics running, until too close to dodge, They can go through islands. They can be stacked in impossible patterns no human player could ever do. They can actually turn ever so slightly if it looks like you might dodge some of them, so you get hit anyway. 

11. Bots ships will occasionally pull the magical 'immunity to all damage' ploy. Got a bot down to 150 hp? Suddenly it just stops taking damage, AP, HE, torps all hit it - nope - still alive. Damage saturation my butt! The AI just says, "I need this ship to fulfill whatever mission I had for it for anther 30-45 seconds so no matter what you hit it with, or where, its gonna to keep going. I have NEVER in all my thousands of matches ever had one of my ships become immune to damage when I'm that low on hit points. Quite the opposite - see numbers 2 and 3 above for an instant kill of my ship.

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Yeah no, they are already dumb enough. I'm not sure why you need them nerfed other than perhaps. What the person above me is saying however is a tin hat conspiracy. Capncrunch needs to start learning about game mechanics before calling cheats. 

Edited by TheNargacuga

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The leaping to conclusions here is frightening. Players might be hiding and you might be the only manly man in PvE. But I kinda doubt it. Confirmation bias, or you not understanding what you are seeing. People might be practicing long range fire. Or seeing how they can use certain islands. Or you missed them killing a bot that was close. Etc.

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Bots used to be LOTS dumber; to the extent they would all collide somewhere and go into ‘if/then’ loops trying to decide who went first until they were mostly all shot up and sunk like fish in a barrel.

They rescently got another buff; at about the time operations started. T6 and up, the bots didn’t used to use Defensive Fire very often, if at all. Now you can count on it, even down one more tier if a Nicholas is in the game.

2 hours ago, alexf24 said:

Bots are stupid already. In high tiers they shoot better and more accurately.

They are still dumb, following DDs, or picking the lowest HP ship. They still cheat on impossible torpedo beats, and they know when you target them. They had RPF even before we knew what it was. But dumbing them down? No. Make it more of a challenge.

Bots cheat on torpedo beats. Like was said earlier, they had RPF when nobody knew what that was, and still use it to go after targets that have NEVER been spotted. They always seem to avoid citadels when broadside, while returning them against angled targets. They fire one salvo and get a fire, while a real player generally has to fire many salvoes to get one on a bot. Bot CVs can get damage and a fire with a single divebomer, while a player will get zero damage with an entire squad.  Bot CV torpedo bombers can get flooding with a single hit, while players get only damage with 2-4 hits.

...and the one I love the most; Bots will often magically manage to knock out  the ‘can’t miss’ torpedo launcher; especially if you just dodged their torpedoes.

1 hour ago, DingBat said:

Really, they're so predictable that they NEED to have super accuracy in order to avoid being boringly easy. It's not that the bots are hard, it's that the average PvE player plays them so poorly they make it more challenging than they have to. 

Pretty much; especially as a cv driver, the only excuse for a loss is your team tanks so badly you can’t kill all the bots before they cap out or swamp you.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet
bloody autocorrect stupidity
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6 minutes ago, capncrunch21 said:

Points 1, 2, and 3 are wrong.

1. Bots will almost (ALMOST) always chase the low tier DD (woe to you if you are the ONLY DD) - even if said DD is not detected (because AI cheats know exactly where it is at all times). More than one (same low tier) DD?  - go to point number 2.

2. Bots will always defend a cap. They may not intentionally drive into it (unless a green DD is trying to cap - then it becomes a priority for them), but they sure as heck will shoot with nearly infallible accuracy any green ship in a cap - usually waiting until there is only 5 or less seconds left - and bam! RESET.

3. Bots will always, ALWAYS, target the lowest health ship on the map. I have seen them shoot across the map, more that 15 km to hit me when I'm lowest on health, even though there are green ships between me and them - INCLUDING SPOTTED DDs and full broadside cruisers.

Plus,

4. Bots will nearly always start a fire with the first HE hit. 

5. Bots know exactly when your guns are just about to reload AND WHAT AMMO IS LOADED. They will always angle into you if AP - even if they are fighting another, closer ship at the time (unless that ship is about to fire AP as well).

6. They can dodge torps as they come out of your tubes, regardless of whether the torps are detected or not. Their torp beats are UNICUM level. I've seen bot BBs do dodges that would put skilled DD players to shame. 

7. They almost always disable your torp tubes just as you are about to fire if you are brawling them. And they ALWAYS disable/destroy the LOADED launcher.

8. Dead bots almost always get a 'last ditch' attack as they die. Resulting in a full spread of highly accurate torpedoes (which remain unseen in many cases until right next to you), or a gun blast which miraculously does massive damage/cits.

9. Bot accuracy is amazing at times, depending on AI needs. For example: I had a game just today at tier 10 in my Yamato. There were two enemy Yamatos. They sailed full broadside to me for 5, yes FIVE, bow on salvos about 10 km away from me (that's 30 shells worth). I know EXACTLY where to aim to strike their massive citadels with my AP rounds. You know how many cits I got with the AI controlled RNG? ZERO. You know how many cits they got against me while I was bow on to them? THREE. 

10. Bot torpedoes can pull magical stunts. They can remain undetected despite Hydroacustics running, until too close to dodge, They can go through islands. They can be stacked in impossible patterns no human player could ever do. They can actually turn ever so slightly if it looks like you might dodge some of them, so you get hit anyway. 

11. Bots ships will occasionally pull the magical 'immunity to all damage' ploy. Got a bot down to 150 hp? Suddenly it just stops taking damage, AP, HE, torps all hit it - nope - still alive. Damage saturation my butt! The AI just says, "I need this ship to fulfill whatever mission I had for it for anther 30-45 seconds so no matter what you hit it with, or where, its gonna to keep going. I have NEVER in all my thousands of matches ever had one of my ships become immune to damage when I'm that low on hit points. Quite the opposite - see numbers 2 and 3 above for an instant kill of my ship.

Most of this is completely over exaggerated nonsense. 

2 minutes ago, TheNargacuga said:

Yeah no, they are already dumb enough. I'm not sure why you need them nerfed other than perhaps. 

They could use a few tweaks, but they are moderately challenging at higher tiers. 

2 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

The leaping to conclusions here is frightening. Players might be hiding and you might be the only manly man in PvE. But I kinda doubt it. Confirmation bias, or you not understanding what you are seeing. People might be practicing long range fire. Or seeing how they can use certain islands. Or you missed them killing a bot that was close. Etc.

True. Many people I find in PvE I think are trying out new ships, or new mechanics, new ways to use their ship... so on. So the perspective from other players may be a bit twisted. 

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1 minute ago, Lazy_Zombi said:

Most of this is completely over exaggerated nonsense. 

You don't play nearly enough PvE then. If you did, you would know this is no exaggeration.

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Typical troll post about co-op from a Random main.

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3 minutes ago, Patton5150 said:

Typical troll post about co-op from a Random main.

Seems so...

No stats.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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Yeah I'm 99% sure this is a troll post... OP is probably upset he had a passive team and he died.

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4 hours ago, Jim_Byrnes said:

Got a point there.. PT high tier matches are a campfest like you read about...

This reminds me of a line from a movie. I'm not sure which, but it'll come to me.

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4 hours ago, capncrunch21 said:

Points 1, 2, and 3 are wrong.

1. Bots will almost (ALMOST) always chase the low tier DD (woe to you if you are the ONLY DD) - even if said DD is not detected (because AI cheats know exactly where it is at all times). More than one (same low tier) DD?  - go to point number 2.

2. Bots will always defend a cap. They may not intentionally drive into it (unless a green DD is trying to cap - then it becomes a priority for them), but they sure as heck will shoot with nearly infallible accuracy any green ship in a cap - usually waiting until there is only 5 or less seconds left - and bam! RESET.

3. Bots will always, ALWAYS, target the lowest health ship on the map. I have seen them shoot across the map, more that 15 km to hit me when I'm lowest on health, even though there are green ships between me and them - INCLUDING SPOTTED DDs and full broadside cruisers.

Plus,

4. Bots will nearly always start a fire with the first HE hit. 

5. Bots know exactly when your guns are just about to reload AND WHAT AMMO IS LOADED. They will always angle into you if AP - even if they are fighting another, closer ship at the time (unless that ship is about to fire AP as well).

6. They can dodge torps as they come out of your tubes, regardless of whether the torps are detected or not. Their torp beats are UNICUM level. I've seen bot BBs do dodges that would put skilled DD players to shame. 

7. They almost always disable your torp tubes just as you are about to fire if you are brawling them. And they ALWAYS disable/destroy the LOADED launcher.

8. Dead bots almost always get a 'last ditch' attack as they die. Resulting in a full spread of highly accurate torpedoes (which remain unseen in many cases until right next to you), or a gun blast which miraculously does massive damage/cits.

9. Bot accuracy is amazing at times, depending on AI needs. For example: I had a game just today at tier 10 in my Yamato. There were two enemy Yamatos. They sailed full broadside to me for 5, yes FIVE, bow on salvos about 10 km away from me (that's 30 shells worth). I know EXACTLY where to aim to strike their massive citadels with my AP rounds. You know how many cits I got with the AI controlled RNG? ZERO. You know how many cits they got against me while I was bow on to them? THREE. 

10. Bot torpedoes can pull magical stunts. They can remain undetected despite Hydroacustics running, until too close to dodge, They can go through islands. They can be stacked in impossible patterns no human player could ever do. They can actually turn ever so slightly if it looks like you might dodge some of them, so you get hit anyway. 

11. Bots ships will occasionally pull the magical 'immunity to all damage' ploy. Got a bot down to 150 hp? Suddenly it just stops taking damage, AP, HE, torps all hit it - nope - still alive. Damage saturation my butt! The AI just says, "I need this ship to fulfill whatever mission I had for it for anther 30-45 seconds so no matter what you hit it with, or where, its gonna to keep going. I have NEVER in all my thousands of matches ever had one of my ships become immune to damage when I'm that low on hit points. Quite the opposite - see numbers 2 and 3 above for an instant kill of my ship.

Red bots are the biggest hackers in WoWs. Green bots do only one thing; YOLO. :Smile_facepalm:

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8 hours ago, ReddNekk said:

Red bots are the biggest hackers in WoWs. Green bots do only one thing; YOLO. :Smile_facepalm:

Don't forget green bots will torp friendlies out of the blue "just because".. I hate the green bots more than the reds... 

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