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Plaatduutsch

High Tier CVs Needs Reduced Striking Powers

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Last night I played my Z52 and I was sunk twice by Midways in a row,

Then I take a look at player stats'

1st Miday has 44.7% win rate over only 400 games, yet he managed to score the second on his first battle in Midway

2nd midway  has 47% win rate overall, and he scored the highest score in the match on a losing team and got Kraken. It is his 5th battle in his midway. 

Those less skilled/experienced players just suddenly "rocks" with a Midway on their hand. 

What I am trying to say is that high tier CV can deal damage way too easily, and they counter most DDs way too hard. There is barely any counter play at all, which is NOT FUN.

At high tier, a average CV can do more damage than a unicum BB player, which is absurd.

We all pay same service fees, why should a CV player get rewards more for less skill?

Oh, I am not even using DDs for comparison, because even a skilled DD player can hardly do 50% amount of damge than a below avg high tier CV player. 

I think the tier 6 CV has a more balanced striking power.

 

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If they are so less skilled wouldnt they lose all their planes to the massive AA in tier 10 games? The win rate u look at is [edited]. they may not win alot but maybe they actually help their teams.

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Let the CV's go full on robo and it won't change. IMO we have two games playing on the same field. The UI is different for CV's. The battle screen is different. When AA is addressed it directly affects the CV performance. When TB or DB are addressed it affects surface ships. Balance will never be accomplished because of the TWO GAMES are not compatible.

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27 minutes ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

Let the CV's go full on robo and it won't change. IMO we have two games playing on the same field. The UI is different for CV's. The battle screen is different. When AA is addressed it directly affects the CV performance. When TB or DB are addressed it affects surface ships. Balance will never be accomplished because of the TWO GAMES are not compatible.

Hm. No it's possible. Let's look at it this way. You can get a +10-16% concealment bonus. A 20% increased fire rate for dd guns. +2% extra fire chance. Etc etc.

and then you can have something like a 300-800% increase to your aa damage. It IS impossible to balance something that covers such a wide range. If they were to reduce this to something like base AA damage and then base AA damage +30-50%, they would have much more consistent results in how many planes are able to get through that AA, and then those planes could be improved or reduced in effectiveness much easier. 

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9 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

No it's possible.

Of course it is (though probably not without a riot amongst the CV community).

You could:

Make CV bombs and torps do less damage.

Make CVs drop torps from a greater distance to enable ships to dodge better.

Make bomb targeting circles larger.

Remove manual drops all together.

Remove fighters and thus remove the ability to perma-spot other ships.

Give all ships an AA boost.

And the list goes on ... now all you have to do is convince WoW to do it. They have struggled with CVs from before CBT, which is why CVs were given a delayed debut when they did arrive (anyone remember that?). CVs are VERY POWERFUL units, and WoW likes to dumb down ships so the worst of players can still enjoy playing them. So when GOOD players get them, they seem OP as hell. Because the DRIVER IS!

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Or you simply need to change your strategy when facing a CV. I have 0 issues save for my Bismarck/Tirpitz when going up against the AP DB, but that's a fair weakness since KMS BB are tough to citadel.

 

Problem for CV mains like me simple: usually too OP or UP. Sometimes AA shuts us down for most of match, other times we're mercilessly wrecking. Had that last time with Taiho, only their AA minotaur was a genuine threat, and even then I still easily did front long-range TB crossdrops on a MO (known for excellent AA) and helped bring it down that much faster.

 

Side note: The MO's mistake was leaving all but Minotaur's longe-range AA coverage. Minotaur needs at least long-range and medium-range AA to be a serious threat to my planes.

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Those 2 players earned their Midways after the langley, Bogue, and Lexington, they probably had to lay air superiority just to get xp enough to get by.  They are not great players by any measure, but low win rates are not signs of very bad players but a tough grind to the Midway..

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27 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Of course it is (though probably not without a riot amongst the CV community).

You could:

Make CV bombs and torps do less damage.

Make CVs drop torps from a greater distance to enable ships to dodge better.

Make bomb targeting circles larger.

Remove manual drops all together.

Remove fighters and thus remove the ability to perma-spot other ships.

Give all ships an AA boost.

And the list goes on ... now all you have to do is convince WoW to do it. They have struggled with CVs from before CBT, which is why CVs were given a delayed debut when they did arrive (anyone remember that?). CVs are VERY POWERFUL units, and WoW likes to dumb down ships so the worst of players can still enjoy playing them. So when GOOD players get them, they seem OP as hell. Because the DRIVER IS!

Ya having the striking power of 2 tier 4 CVs with 1k lbs bombs is way to strong for a tier 10 CV.  Why should ships get more powerful as the tiers go up. We should cap all ships with whatever abilities they have at tier 6 and call the game done. 

Yup, lets reduce Yamato's rifles to 14". 18.1" is just to strong and just overmatches to many ships bows.

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32 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Or you simply need to change your strategy when facing a CV. I have 0 issues save for my Bismarck/Tirpitz when going up against the AP DB, but that's a fair weakness since KMS BB are tough to citadel.

 

Problem for CV mains like me simple: usually too OP or UP. Sometimes AA shuts us down for most of match, other times we're mercilessly wrecking. Had that last time with Taiho, only their AA minotaur was a genuine threat, and even then I still easily did front long-range TB crossdrops on a MO (known for excellent AA) and helped bring it down that much faster.

 

Side note: The MO's mistake was leaving all but Minotaur's longe-range AA coverage. Minotaur needs at least long-range and medium-range AA to be a serious threat to my planes.

How would he need to change his playstyle in a DD when facing a CV? I see this kind of message 2nd time today and I want some enlightenment, because I still want to make money in my shima, when enemy got superior CV...

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1 hour ago, Apewar said:

If they are so less skilled wouldnt they lose all their planes to the massive AA in tier 10 games? The win rate u look at is [edited]. they may not win alot but maybe they actually help their teams.

Yes the enemy unicum Montana got clear sky, but it did not stop the friendly CV being 2nd highest XP earner. Midway has 137 planes to burn, which is way too forgiving. 

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Go check out stats and then come back and talk.  Right now the Midway is overperforming but she's also just received a nerf and I can promise you that she'll receive another one before its all over.  Otherwise CV's deal a fairly balanced amount of damage on a per tier basis.  If you ever see CV's placing high because of damage,   understand that this is not the norm,  its the outlier.  

Edit:  Addendum,  the Taiho is also overperforming,  being twelve thousand damage higher than the next ship on average across the servers.  So...yeah,  bit too much strike power there as well.

Edited by Palladia

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2 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

Those less skilled/experienced players just suddenly "rocks" with a Midway on their hand.

If a potato Midway is causing so much trouble, I shudder to think about what happens when facing a Hakk driver with even a bit more competence.

2 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

What I am trying to say is that high tier CV can deal damage way too easily, and they counter most DDs way too hard. There is barely any counter play at all, which is NOT FUN.

Why is it a self-proclaimed average player such as myself never seems to have any continuous issue with getting abused by carrier squads...

...it couldn’t be because I balance my aggression against my concealment could it?

Much like some battleship drivers who seem to feel they should be allowed to sail about bdsm never be bothered by pesky metal fishes; it seems like destroyer drivers sometimes feel they should never have to worry about being spotted by anything.

If I get spotted by a cv and can’t get away? Oh well; maybe next game I’ll get to return the favor. (17 citadels on a Ranger with an Aki once, fun times that.)

As I’ve said many times before in the forum; as a CV driver, I’ve seen too many attacks spoiled by people doing what they needed to do to defend themselves, to have ANY sympathy for those who say it can’t be done.

No skills CV huh?

Regular ship; driving, angling/dodging, aiming and shooting, and perhaps map awareness/concealment management require conscious thought. Secondaries and AA blowing away enemies... Seems like press-button no-skill fighting to me...

A carrier; driving and dodging, map awareness/concealment management, flight deck management, knowledge about potential enemy AA and DF abilities. Micro-management ability for from 3 to 8 squads; how to avoid AA, being spotted, and making/avoiding strafing attacks.

Then, FINALLY, knowing when/how to make attacks; which includes choosing what angle to attack from, (in order to avoid overlapping AA and compensate for an evading target,) and whether or not to auto or manual drop...

...and after all that; you still might get the joy of watching your squads evaporate before getting an attack off...

... unlike gun salvos, which can’t be stopped once fired.

Yeah; no skill needed to drive a CV.

If driving a CV looks easy, what makes it so is usualy the targets themselves.

Dive bombers are RNG based, just like gun salvos, and their accuracy is notoriously bad without the use of manual drops, the targeting of which can’t be changed, once an attack is committed.

Auto torpedoes drops are one of the easiest attacks to avoid or mitigate in the game; mainly Just requiring paying attention. Manual drops can be powerful, but are difficult to pull off successfully without potatoness by the target, or lots of experience and good guessing on the part of the CV driver.

I won’t dispute that there are issues involving carriers, but I’ll always take issue with it being said driving a CV requires no skill.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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2 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

If a potato Midway is causing so much trouble, I shudder to think about what happens when facing a Hakk driver with even a bit more competence.

Why is it a self-proclaimed average player such as myself never seems to have any continuous issue with getting abused by carrier squads...

...it couldn’t be because I balance my aggression against my concealment could it?

Much like some battleship drivers who seem to feel they should be allowed to sail about bdsm never be bothered by pesky metal fishes; it seems like destroyer drivers sometimes feel they should never have to worry about being spotted by anything.

If I get spotted by a cv and can’t get away? Oh well; maybe next game I’ll get to return the favor. (17 citadels on a Ranger with an Aki once, fun times that.)

As I’ve said many times before in the forum; as a CV driver, I’ve seen too many attacks spoiled by people doing what they needed to do to defend themselves, to have ANY sympathy for those who say it can’t be done.

No skills CV huh?

Regular ship; driving, angling/dodging, aiming and shooting, and perhaps map awareness/concealment management require conscious thought. Secondaries and AA blowing away enemies... Seems like press-button no-skill fighting to me...

A carrier; driving and dodging, map awareness/concealment management, flight deck management, knowledge about potential enemy AA and DF abilities. Micro-management ability for from 3 to 8 squads; how to avoid AA, being spotted, and making/avoiding strafing attacks.

Then, FINALLY, knowing when/how to make attacks; which includes choosing what angle to attack from, (in order to avoid overlapping AA and compensate for an evading target,) and whether or not to auto or manual drop...

...and after all that; you still might get the joy of watching your squads evaporate before getting an attack off...

... unlike gun salvos, which can’t be stopped once fired.

Yeah; no skill needed to drive a CV.

If driving a CV looks easy, what makes it so is usualy the targets themselves.

Dive bombers are RNG based, just like gun salvos, and their accuracy is notoriously bad without the use of manual drops, the targeting of which can’t be changed, once an attack is committed.

Auto torpedoes drops are one of the easiest attacks to avoid or mitigate in the game; mainly Just requiring paying attention. Manual drops can be powerful, but are difficult to pull off successfully with potatoness by the target, or lots of experience and good guessing on the part of the CV driver.

I won’t dispute that there are issues involving carriers, but I’ll always take issue with it being said driving a CV requires no skill.

Yes, good luck trying to snipe a midway with your DDs!

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This sounds more like an example of why you shouldn't judge someone by their over all win rate, than it does an example of CVs being OP.

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3 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

If a potato Midway is causing so much trouble, I shudder to think about what happens when facing a Hakk driver with even a bit more competence.

Why is it a self-proclaimed average player such as myself never seems to have any continuous issue with getting abused by carrier squads...

...it couldn’t be because I balance my aggression against my concealment could it?

Much like some battleship drivers who seem to feel they should be allowed to sail about bdsm never be bothered by pesky metal fishes; it seems like destroyer drivers sometimes feel they should never have to worry about being spotted by anything.

If I get spotted by a cv and can’t get away? Oh well; maybe next game I’ll get to return the favor. (17 citadels on a Ranger with an Aki once, fun times that.)

As I’ve said many times before in the forum; as a CV driver, I’ve seen too many attacks spoiled by people doing what they needed to do to defend themselves, to have ANY sympathy for those who say it can’t be done.

No skills CV huh?

Regular ship; driving, angling/dodging, aiming and shooting, and perhaps map awareness/concealment management require conscious thought. Secondaries and AA blowing away enemies... Seems like press-button no-skill fighting to me...

A carrier; driving and dodging, map awareness/concealment management, flight deck management, knowledge about potential enemy AA and DF abilities. Micro-management ability for from 3 to 8 squads; how to avoid AA, being spotted, and making/avoiding strafing attacks.

Then, FINALLY, knowing when/how to make attacks; which includes choosing what angle to attack from, (in order to avoid overlapping AA and compensate for an evading target,) and whether or not to auto or manual drop...

...and after all that; you still might get the joy of watching your squads evaporate before getting an attack off...

... unlike gun salvos, which can’t be stopped once fired.

Yeah; no skill needed to drive a CV.

If driving a CV looks easy, what makes it so is usualy the targets themselves.

Dive bombers are RNG based, just like gun salvos, and their accuracy is notoriously bad without the use of manual drops, the targeting of which can’t be changed, once an attack is committed.

Auto torpedoes drops are one of the easiest attacks to avoid or mitigate in the game; mainly Just requiring paying attention. Manual drops can be powerful, but are difficult to pull off successfully with potatoness by the target, or lots of experience and good guessing on the part of the CV driver.

I won’t dispute that there are issues involving carriers, but I’ll always take issue with it being said driving a CV requires no skill.

I have never mentioned "no skill" in my post.

I am simply saying a player with 45%ish win rate and 400+ battles should not be a rock star all in a sudden because they just acquired an OP weapon.  

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3 minutes ago, Plaatduutsch said:

I have never mentioned "no skill" in my post.

I am simply saying a player with 45%ish win rate and 400+ battles should not be a rock star all in a sudden because they just acquired an OP weapon.  

And again; my experience has been that if driving a CV appears easy; it’s usually the targets that make it so.

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15 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

And again; my experience has been that if driving a CV appears easy; it’s usually the targets that make it so.

So true. But its so fun to face a player that knows how to beat your drops. 

Lazy drop... BB tap dances her way through your torpedoes. 

"game on My friend", cracks knuckles. 

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27 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

So true. But its so fun to face a player that knows how to beat your drops. 

Lazy drop... BB tap dances her way through your torpedoes. 

"game on My friend", cracks knuckles. 

lol, sometimes, yeah... :Smile_izmena:

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3 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

Last night I played my Z52 and I was sunk twice by Midways in a row,

Then I take a look at player stats'

1st Miday has 44.7% win rate over only 400 games, yet he managed to score the second on his first battle in Midway

2nd midway  has 47% win rate overall, and he scored the highest score in the match on a losing team and got Kraken. It is his 5th battle in his midway. 

Those less skilled/experienced players just suddenly "rocks" with a Midway on their hand. 

Please PM me their names. I have a suspicion the one with 47% in his midway is due to the low amount of battles played. The 44.7% might have his WR deflated due to battles played before the load out changes. I curious to see what their IJN CV stats, if they have any, are.

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake

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2 hours ago, StoneRhino said:

Ya having the striking power of 2 tier 4 CVs with 1k lbs bombs is way to strong for a tier 10 CV.  Why should ships get more powerful as the tiers go up. We should cap all ships with whatever abilities they have at tier 6 and call the game done. 

Yup, lets reduce Yamato's rifles to 14". 18.1" is just to strong and just overmatches to many ships bows.

I love the sarcasm; I'm someone who it as much as possible, but I don't see where it has anything to do with what I said. The subject was balance between ship types, and how difficult it seems to be for WoW to balance CVs against every other type of ship. Of course, in real life, CVs are definitely the most powerful ship on the ocean, but this isn't real life, it's a game where no type of ship is supposed to dominate.

But I do like the sarcasm!

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Bad 1       Oh BOO - HOO!

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13 minutes ago, Umikami said:

I love the sarcasm; I'm someone who it as much as possible, but I don't see where it has anything to do with what I said. The subject was balance between ship types, and how difficult it seems to be for WoW to balance CVs against every other type of ship. Of course, in real life, CVs are definitely the most powerful ship on the ocean, but this isn't real life, it's a game where no type of ship is supposed to dominate.

But I do like the sarcasm!

So, you suggesting nerfing tier 4/5 sub 40 kts torpedoes on tier 10 ships. With zero tds you are talking about the damage equivalent of what a new York/Wyoming shell. The only thing that changes with tiering in a cv is plane speed and survival.  

CVS tend to have average damage but that is mostly do to high survival rates and nearly no early deaths. Not a result of thier strike potential.

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3 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

So, you suggesting nerfing tier 4/5 sub 40 kts torpedoes on tier 10 ships.

Please show me where I said anything about any specific tiers.

4 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

CVS tend to have average damage but that is mostly do to high survival rates and nearly no early deaths. Not a result of thier strike potential

And also really not getting where this fits in with anything I said either. You sure you're quoting the right post?

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2-3 AA spec  ships = Tough game for CV

 

AA spec destroys planes. I believe a rework is in order but I don't think you would like my suggestion,

 

Buff  strike lookouts

Buff AA modules and captains  

 Eventually  they will run out of planes if you have AA spec players

I believe 3 AA ships should be able to protect there whole team  but who spec AA anymore above tier 8 you might get 1 out of 24 matches of use. With High tier CV a ghost town its hard to balance the game. How can you balance a game with people crying nerf when there already is a counter but no one plays the counter because the chance of playing against a CV is rare at that tier. Do you see the conundrum. 

 

A proper AA spec can  reach out between 7-10km shredding planes  I mean shreds them like paper, so before you complain there is a counter.   Even some DD can shred planes with a AA spec but why play it  if you gimp yourself 9/10 matches waiting for one..

 

PEOPLE STOP CRYING NERF BAT when there is a counter already just no one uses it on NA servers

 

Edited by OppressorUnion

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3 hours ago, Umikami said:

Of course it is (though probably not without a riot amongst the CV community).

You could:

Make CV bombs and torps do less damage

Tier 10 CVS drop tier 4 torpedoes. You want to further nerf some of the slowest and lowest damage torpedoes in the game. In addition IJN tier 10 cvs are using tier 5 bombs. The USN gain 1k lbs bombs at tier 8 but have a huge drop circle. The AP bombs that are also gained at tier 8 are situational, gimmicky and only work against certain targets.

You are literally saying you want to nerf the damage of a ship that is using equipment from 5-6 tiers lower in some cases. 

 

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