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SmokinCAT

DD Radar VS DD Hydro.

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Can someone explain to me how the 5.88km ship spotting hydro on Z52 is balanced with its 2 minute length of duration compared to say the 7.5km radar that is available on the Yueyang and only last for 20 seconds, the Yueyang has to give up smoke to take that option, shouldnt there be a trade off to the Z52 being able to take such a powerful tool into the game?

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I don't think so it is something everyone will need to overcome. The game is fun and this just makes one more thing to learn to counter.

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Considering how they preform, they are balanced.

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Any ship that has a method of generating its own concealment (smoke) should not also have the means to generate its own spotting thru smoke (hydro or radar). Otherwise you run into the problem we're having now with ships like the german DDs that can fire, smoke, then hydro to keep firing while their target can't shoot back. This was the problem with the Belfast as well (smoke + radar + hydro). They removed the Belfast but then did the same thing with the German DDs.

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin
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15 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

Can someone explain to me how the 5.88km ship spotting hydro on Z52 is balanced with its 2 minute length of duration compared to say the 7.5km radar that is available on the Yueyang and only last for 20 seconds, the Yueyang has to give up smoke to take that option, shouldnt there be a trade off to the Z52 being able to take such a powerful tool into the game?

NO

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Z-52's downsides are its worse concealment, shorter-ranged torpedoes, and fatass hull. It's at its best in cap fights, so don't give it one if you don't have to.

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The Z-52 trades having the worst smoke in game, second worst detection among DD's at tier and can take full pen damage from AP. For context, that's 3500 damage per hit from a USN BB.

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Z-52 is balanced by taking massive AP damage, weaker concealment and it’s generally poor maneuverability.  Not that I have the 52 yet, but if it’s similar to most then German dds then this should hold true.

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Both z-46 and z-52 have similar weaknesses:

-Shortest smoke duration.
-Shortest torpedo range / lowest damage per torpedo.
-Poor detection range
-Large hull / detect ability range
-Thicker armor so susceptible to AP penetration.

Probably more, but i am sure others have already answered by the time i wrote this.
Bottom line, German DD's are balanced around the fact they have hydro.

They may be good at just about everything but they are master of none, as other DD's can fulfill a given role better.
If you like the jack of all trades playstyle then these DD's are king, other wise it's not even a contest.

Edited by xovian

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16 minutes ago, Jiggiwatt said:

The Z-52 trades having the worst smoke in game, second worst detection among DD's at tier and can take full pen damage from AP. For context, that's 3500 damage per hit from a USN BB.

:Smile_great: This.

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22 minutes ago, Jiggiwatt said:

The Z-52 trades having the worst smoke in game, second worst detection among DD's at tier and can take full pen damage from AP. For context, that's 3500 damage per hit from a USN BB.

DDs have always taken full pen damage from AP if the angle is right. It's just that we didn't have the shell hit ribbons in the past to tell us. 

It has always been a problem for DD players. 

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47 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

Can someone explain to me how the 5.88km ship spotting hydro on Z52 is balanced with its 2 minute length of duration compared to say the 7.5km radar that is available on the Yueyang and only last for 20 seconds, the Yueyang has to give up smoke to take that option, shouldnt there be a trade off to the Z52 being able to take such a powerful tool into the game?

Gaede has hydro and it never ever in battle requires it.

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53 minutes ago, SmokinCAT said:

Can someone explain to me how the 5.88km ship spotting hydro on Z52 is balanced with its 2 minute length of duration compared to say the 7.5km radar that is available on the Yueyang and only last for 20 seconds, the Yueyang has to give up smoke to take that option, shouldnt there be a trade off to the Z52 being able to take such a powerful tool into the game?

Z52 hydro range is smaller than its detection range. You can outspot him.a

 

Yueyangradar range is bigger than its own detection range. He outspots you.

 

Its a big difference one from the other. To use hydro a z52 needs to put the ship in danger. Yueyang can do it from safety.

Edited by Xlap

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17 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

DDs have always taken full pen damage from AP if the angle is right. It's just that we didn't have the shell hit ribbons in the past to tell us. 

It has always been a problem for DD players. 

Right, although it's most common to take full pen damage when a shell is passing bow to stern (or stern to bow). With the German DD's you have a higher risk of taking a full pen hit broadside than most other DD's.

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2 hours ago, SmokinCAT said:

Can someone explain to me how the 5.88km ship spotting hydro on Z52 is balanced with its 2 minute length of duration compared to say the 7.5km radar that is available on the Yueyang and only last for 20 seconds, the Yueyang has to give up smoke to take that option, shouldnt there be a trade off to the Z52 being able to take such a powerful tool into the game?

Z-52 gets 77 seconds of smoke, making it impossible to get the full 120 seconds of hydro use without exposing itself to enemy fire.  Also, given that the hydro only spots ships out to 5.88 km and the Z-52 will itself be spotted from further out, if you end up within hydro range of him for more than a few salvos that's entirely your fault.  The converse is not true of the Yueyang with radar.

Put another way, assuming you're paying attention the map and turn away from the Z-52 when it activates the hydro, that player is only going to be getting about 20 seconds of full use out of it anyway (at most), or else he is going to be running you down without the benefit of obscuring himself in smoke.

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4 hours ago, Harv72b said:

Z-52 gets 77 seconds of smoke, making it impossible to get the full 120 seconds of hydro use without exposing itself to enemy fire.  Also, given that the hydro only spots ships out to 5.88 km and the Z-52 will itself be spotted from further out, if you end up within hydro range of him for more than a few salvos that's entirely your fault.  The converse is not true of the Yueyang with radar.

Put another way, assuming you're paying attention the map and turn away from the Z-52 when it activates the hydro, that player is only going to be getting about 20 seconds of full use out of it anyway (at most), or else he is going to be running you down without the benefit of obscuring himself in smoke.

If you meet an unspotted Z52 nose to nose in let’s say a gearing that .2km buffer in detection might as well not exist, and you will be in hydro range for far longer than 20 seconds trying to turn around and escape, all while being farmed from smoke with no recourse. 

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1 hour ago, SmokinCAT said:

If you meet an unspotted Z52 nose to nose in let’s say a gearing that .2km buffer in detection might as well not exist, and you will be in hydro range for far longer than 20 seconds trying to turn around and escape, all while being farmed from smoke with no recourse. 

If you meet an unspotted Z-52 nose to nose that's your fault.  Either the match has been going on for long enough for you to have a pretty good idea where that Z-52 is, or the match just started and you shouldn't be plowing straight into an area where a Z-52 could be.

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the yang is a monster any way you look at it. you can fit it to be a gun or torp boat, and it excels in both. it will eat the Z in a gunfight.

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8 hours ago, Azzura said:

Yet somehow the Yueyang  seems to out perform the 52. If numbers mean anything?

The Yu Yang is a new boat and its stats have not had time to normalize.

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8 hours ago, Xlap said:

Z52 hydro range is smaller than its detection range. You can outspot him.a

 

Yueyangradar range is bigger than its own detection range. He outspots you.

 

Its a big difference one from the other. To use hydro a z52 needs to put the ship in danger. Yueyang can do it from safety.

You've got that backwards. Z52 can smoke then use hydro firing from safety. Yueyang has to pick between radar and smoke, they can't use both. 

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1 hour ago, Harv72b said:

If you meet an unspotted Z-52 nose to nose that's your fault.  Either the match has been going on for long enough for you to have a pretty good idea where that Z-52 is, or the match just started and you shouldn't be plowing straight into an area where a Z-52 could be.

So by your logic, the Gearing should back up towards the nearest map edge until the Z52 is spotted by someone else? As a DD your job is to spot, not wait for others to spot for you. You can't be spotting unless you also risk being spotted. WG made a mistake by giving a ship both the means to conceal (smoke) and means to see out of that concealment (hydro). Both should not be on the same ship (or make them choose between them).

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin

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28 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

You've got that backwards. Z52 can smoke then use hydro firing from safety. Yueyang has to pick between radar and smoke, they can't use both. 

No, in order to get into hydro range and smoke you need to put your ship into danger, before you get into smoke position you will get outspoted. Also the enemy know where you are so htey can play around that. 

 

Yueyang can use radar and you dont even know where he is. He can spot you for the team without putting his ship into danger. Or spot you and get a better position to surprise you. 

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Yes the Yueyang can use radar while not yet spotted, but that doesn't help the Yueyang (it helps its teammates). You don't have to worry about a Yueyang invisifiring at you. Granted a Yueyang is basically a super-Gearing, and in a straight up gun fight the Yueyang will gun down a Gearing, at least you can shoot back at it.

A Z52 can fire at you under conditions that don't allow you to reliably shoot back.

A Yueyang using radar while remaining unspotted is the same as any CA using radar while hiding behind an island, or a concealment build CA that can radar out farther than its own detection range. If the Yueyang doesn't have teammates to capitalize on its radar, the radar really doesn't help the Yueyang win a fight. Yes it can use radar to spot you further away than you can see the Yueyang, but he can't fire without being spotted. A Z52 can fire from smoke using hydro and there's not much you can do about it except take free damage.

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54 minutes ago, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

So by your logic, the Gearing should back up towards the nearest map edge until the Z52 is spotted by someone else? As a DD your job is to spot, not wait for others to spot for you. You can't be spotting unless you also risk being spotted. WG made a mistake by giving a ship both the means to conceal (smoke) and means to see out of that concealment (hydro). Both should not be on the same ship (or make them choose between them).

No, by my logic any high-tier destroyer that goes charging into a confined area at flank speed ahead without knowing what is or could be in the vicinity is a dead destroyer.  You and the OP both have plenty enough destroyer games to have learned this lesson by now...you angle in so you can angle right back out if need be.  If there's a chance that even a single Z-52 is around the next island, let alone that destroyer backed up by numerous teammates, you exercise extreme caution when entering the area and, ideally, plan your entry so that you aren't skirting right by an island that said German destroyer could be lurking behind.

Barring some sort of next level hyper-unicum play by your opponent, you should never be completely surprised by any ship you encounter.

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