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Airglide2

Fair buff to the Omaha and Konigsberg.

Increase Omaha and Konigsberg (and sister premiums) Bow/Aft armor from 10mm to 13mm?  

66 members have voted

  1. 1. From 10mm to 13mm?

    • Yes, I'd like the same buff Emerald had last year.
      51
    • No, I don't want the same buff Emerald had last year.
      15

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In relation to a recent post about buffing the range of the Marblehead, a thought occurred to me.  I remember last year Emerald received a buff to her armor thickness from 10mm to 13mm.  I thought, "Well why not Omaha and Konigsberg?  Or any of their sister premium ships?  The results seemed fair and I believe it's worth a shot".  That's my take, but I'd like to know if what I'm asking is to much here.

 

EDIT:

10mm protects generally from 143mm guns and below

13mm protects generally from 185.9mm guns and below.

EDIT 2:

I don't know if Phoenix should get the 10-13mm buff as well.  It is a prototype of the Omaha after all.  However Schores is also a prototype to Chapayev yet still had less armor.

Edited by Airglide2

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Don't think it's gonna make much of a difference. I already passed through both, so it wouldn't affect me at all. Regardless, they can probably take any buff they can get, specially the Omaha.

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33 minutes ago, Captain_Benevolent_Fair said:

Don't think it's gonna make much of a difference. I already passed through both, so it wouldn't affect me at all. Regardless, they can probably take any buff they can get, specially the Omaha.

I probably should have written this in the prologue.  10mm of armor thickness will generally speaking protect you from being overmatched of gun sizes 143mm and below.  With 13mm of armor thickness it will generally protect you from being overmatched with gun sizes 185.9mm and below.  Meaning the likelihood of being blown to smithereens from shots through the Bow/Aft from the common 152mm guns out there are much slimmer (Unless, I believe, your at point blank range).  Having many adventures in my Marblehead, I can personally attest to being shot up the nose without impunity many many times from 150-155mm guns.  The Omaha unfortunately has more of it's Bow/Aft showing than Konigsberg.

 

shot-18.02.16_00.46.02-0755.jpg

Bigger front

shot-18.02.16_00.46.15-0311.jpg

Smaller front

Edited by Airglide2

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28 minutes ago, hofmannsc said:

Emerald was buffed? You can still cit it with 6" guns and IFHE. AP is much more reliable however.

A. Show me.  Show me you can citadel a Emerald through the bow/stern with AP from a 6" gun.

B. T4-6 players don't have or mostly don't have the T4 Captain skill unlocked.

The Omaha/Konigsberg and clones bow/stern have zero chance of surviving devastating blows from 150-155mm AP, HE AND IFHE.  What I am suggesting is for them to have chance of at surviving 2/3 of those devastating blows.

13 minutes ago, HowitzerBlitzer said:

Konigsberg is fine, Nurnberg on the other hand...

Confused. 

A cruiser with 16mm armor thickness on bow/stern, that can survive up to 228.8 of AP/HE is suggested bad, but a cruiser with 10mm bow/stern that can't survive not only the common 203mm's but 150-155mm's AP/HE as well??  Where did you come up with that analogy?

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25 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

Confused. 

A cruiser with 16mm armor thickness on bow/stern, that can survive up to 228.8 of AP/HE is suggested bad, but a cruiser with 10mm bow/stern that can't survive not only the common 203mm's but 150-155mm's AP/HE as well??  Where did you come up with that analogy?

One ship is a tier 6, the other is a tier 5. Compare what's different between the two, I don't have to say much else.

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Omaha could use the buff

Konigsburg is fine as it is. It has already received a buff via the german HE buff, giving it not only a free IFHE, but one without the fire chance penalty.

Konigsburg is squishy but have good firepower, being a glass cannon is fine. Omaha is squishy with no firepower, thus it needs a buff

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I'm with the others here - Omaha has suffered some power creep and may need a buff, but Konigsberg is a nasty little ship in the right hands and might be the best tier 5 cruiser.

...

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10 hours ago, DoIphin_Princess said:

Omaha could use the buff

Konigsburg is fine as it is. It has already received a buff via the german HE buff, giving it not only a free IFHE, but one without the fire chance penalty.

Konigsburg is squishy but have good firepower, being a glass cannon is fine. Omaha is squishy with no firepower, thus it needs a buff

 

7 hours ago, Dr_Powderfinger said:

 

I'm with the others here - Omaha has suffered some power creep and may need a buff, but Konigsberg is a nasty little ship in the right hands and might be the best tier 5 cruiser.

...

I am not disagreeing with both of you on Konigsberg capabilities.  What I am hoping to do is eliminate the last two T5 Crusiers ships with 10mm bow/stern armor thickness and hopefully from here on in have WG make T5 Crusiers starting with base 13mm bow/stern armor thickness.

Again, I am calling this a fair buff due to the success of Emerald buff.  It neither made it underpowered or overpowered.

Edited by Airglide2

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Quuestion: would a change from 10 to 13mm turn some overpens into pens?

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26 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Quuestion: would a change from 10 to 13mm turn some overpens into pens?

SO many way to answer this.

One could ask that same question on Emerald, but so far I haven't heard a peep from the forums/reddit about Emerald getting more citadeled post buff.

The Omaha specifically is special in that you can bring all 6 guns to the front/rear of the ship.  I'd happily bounce shells of 150-155mm instead of none at all at the moment. 

Adding to the Omaha comment, where "fire everything" has been the meta since 2016, I need all the protection I can get because your more likely to get a hit with 5-6 shells, and one or more hitting all my sensitive parts.  All overmatching, verses 5-6 shots with a high likelihood of bouncing them.

I'll gladly take bounces vs overpens anyday, don't you?  Especially as a light cruiser and if you don't believe me, just look at the Huang He debacle and current DD outcry for less overpen damage from BBs.

If your worried about Omaha getting citadel better, WG had you covered since inception:

 

Patch. 0.0

shot-18.02.16_17.02.43-0695.jpg

Patch 7.1.1

shot-18.02.16_17.02.43-0695.jpg

Edited by Airglide2

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I used to really like the Omaha in the USN vs IJN days.  Not any more.

And the Emerald is still an over ripe zit ready to pop. 

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They don't need a buff. They need better match making.

When I went through the Omaha way back when it was fine because I was usually top tier fighting St Louis's and Phoenix's. 

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Konigsberg is part of the T5 cruiser balance problem in the first place, and certainly didn't need 360' rear turret traverse.

Omaha isn't in a happy place, but I don't think the bow armor buff is what she needs. She's got a very different playstyle to Emerald, being more range-oriented while Emerald has to fight closer and depend on smoke, in that environment she's more vulnerable to cruiser AP, while I don't think many 6in armed cruisers shoot AP at an Omaha 14km out.

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11 minutes ago, mofton said:

Konigsberg is part of the T5 cruiser balance problem in the first place, and certainly didn't need 360' rear turret traverse.

Omaha isn't in a happy place, but I don't think the bow armor buff is what she needs. She's got a very different playstyle to Emerald, being more range-oriented while Emerald has to fight closer and depend on smoke, in that environment she's more vulnerable to cruiser AP, while I don't think many 6in armed cruisers shoot AP at an Omaha 14km out.

And how much you wanna bet the large majority of players at T5 actually follow this logic?  That Omaha is a range oriented ship ergo fight at long ranges and Emerald should hide in smoke and fire in there only.  You know that's a tiny pool of people.  I am training up my La Gal. and have seen plenty of enough Omahas and Emeralds doing the exact opposite of what your saying.  I do agree with you on shooting AP at that range, I just don't have the know-it-all to calculate how much damage you cause at 14km with HE on 10mm armor thickness vs. 13mm.

Mofton I am not sure if you followed the crowd in wanting Marblehead's range to be buffed.  This was a while back, but I was with them and it took forever to get the developer's OK in buffing that ship's range.  Currently they're asking for another buff to her range and while I would like that very much to succeed, I don't think retreading the same ground is gonna get that ship or the sisters anywhere.  Instead, I propose a different solution...the same solution to the Emerald from last year, which is to increase the Omaha/sisters AND the Konigsberg Bow/Aft armor thickness from 10mm to 13mm.  I say it again, there hasn't been any outcry from the Emerald players, either on the forums or Reddit, that they are getting more citadeled after the buff to it's armor.  Neither are they saying it's overpowered.

So in conclusion, why not only increase both ship classes bow/aft armor thickness, but from here on out make it a standard for T5 Cruisers to have no less than 13mm?  It's a fair solution, one that Emerald has been benefiting since then.

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If the Omaha gets a buff, what of the clones (Murmansk, Marblehead)?  Do they get a buff as well?

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1 minute ago, ZARDOZ_II said:

If the Omaha gets a buff, what of the clones (Murmansk, Marblehead)?  Do they get a buff as well?

"Or any of their sister premium ships?" is what I wrote from the beginning.

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2 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

"Or any of their sister premium ships?" is what I wrote from the beginning.

Yes.  But I keep hearing that WG won't buff/nerf premiums.  Just curious if that's true, and if so, how would they work buffing the Omaha and not the others.  If it's not true and they would buff the premiums, my question is moot.  

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8 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

And how much you wanna bet the large majority of players at T5 actually follow this logic?  That Omaha is a range oriented ship ergo fight at long ranges and Emerald should hide in smoke and fire in there only.  You know that's a tiny pool of people.  I am training up my La Gal. and have seen plenty of enough Omahas and Emeralds doing the exact opposite of what your saying.  I do agree with you on shooting AP at that range, I just don't have the know-it-all to calculate how much damage you cause at 14km with HE on 10mm armor thickness vs. 13mm.

Mofton I am not sure if you followed the crowd in wanting Marblehead's range to be buffed.  This was a while back, but I was with them and it took forever to get the developer's OK in buffing that ship's range.  Currently they're asking for another buff to her range and while I would like that very much to succeed, I don't think retreading the same ground is gonna get that ship or the sisters anywhere.  Instead, I propose a different solution...the same solution to the Emerald from last year, which is to increase the Omaha/sisters AND the Konigsberg Bow/Aft armor thickness from 10mm to 13mm.  I say it again, there hasn't been any outcry from the Emerald players, either on the forums or Reddit, that they are getting more citadeled after the buff to it's armor.  Neither are they saying it's overpowered.

So in conclusion, why not only increase both ship classes bow/aft armor thickness, but from here on out make it a standard for T5 Cruisers to have no less than 13mm?  It's a fair solution, one that Emerald has been benefiting since then.

You can't buff stupid. I'm pretty sure 6in AP autobounce is way down on the list of meaningful buffs to the Omaha, better to ask for something else which will help more rather than 'waste' a buff opportunity on something so slight. WG tend to want to collect even more data after making changes, doing that probably wouldn't help but might delay Omaha getting what she really wants.

There's an extent to which you can't buff stupid.

I didn't follow Marblehead's saga to get buffed, but I can guess. I don't really know much about the ship. Fundamentally the Omaha was ok when it was just Omaha with a 6x1 low-ROF Furutaka. Then they added the far more modern Konigsberg, then the newer still Kirov, then they buffed Furutaka's turret arrangement, gave Konigsberg 360' turrets then they buffed Kirov to 5 RPM... I increasingly doubt that Omaha can really be decent in that environment, especially considering that without a torpedo belt she's super vulnerable to HE citadels from RN BB. Wholesale replacement might be in order. Neither Emerald nor Omaha are happy and both are the open-gun mounts circa 1918 designs in a tier with 1927 Koni, 1938 Kirov and a major refit of Furutaka (which happened in 1936).

I don't really follow any Emerald drama either, as far as most seem to be concerned she's still garbage either way, but most people have now played past her so it's not such a hot topic.

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2 minutes ago, ZARDOZ_II said:

Yes.  But I keep hearing that WG won't buff/nerf premiums.  Just curious if that's true, and if so, how would they work buffing the Omaha and not the others.  If it's not true and they would buff the premiums, my question is moot.  

A while back when VMF DDs were receiving a buff to their damage from (I think) 1600-1900, people asked if Anshan was getting the same buff, a VMF DD just under a different flag.  Turns out it did get it too.  Another example was German secondaries graduating from 1/6 to 1/4 pen.  Like it or not Omaha B/C Hulls never get an increase in armor thickness, so it's only fair they receive a  buff as well.  I see where your coming from on Marblehead though, since she is a B hull Omaha.

10 minutes ago, mofton said:

You can't buff stupid. I'm pretty sure 6in AP autobounce is way down on the list of meaningful buffs to the Omaha, better to ask for something else which will help more rather than 'waste' a buff opportunity on something so slight. WG tend to want to collect even more data after making changes, doing that probably wouldn't help but might delay Omaha getting what she really wants.

There's an extent to which you can't buff stupid.

I didn't follow Marblehead's saga to get buffed, but I can guess. I don't really know much about the ship. Fundamentally the Omaha was ok when it was just Omaha with a 6x1 low-ROF Furutaka. Then they added the far more modern Konigsberg, then the newer still Kirov, then they buffed Furutaka's turret arrangement, gave Konigsberg 360' turrets then they buffed Kirov to 5 RPM... I increasingly doubt that Omaha can really be decent in that environment, especially considering that without a torpedo belt she's super vulnerable to HE citadels from RN BB. Wholesale replacement might be in order. Neither Emerald nor Omaha are happy and both are the open-gun mounts circa 1918 designs in a tier with 1927 Koni, 1938 Kirov and a major refit of Furutaka (which happened in 1936).

I don't really follow any Emerald drama either, as far as most seem to be concerned she's still garbage either way, but most people have now played past her so it's not such a hot topic.

First off, I'm not looking to buff any type of community, only the ship.  You work with what you got, nobody knows this better than the developers.

The parallels of Omaha/sisters/Konigsberg and the Hipper/Eugen are remarkable.  Both groups exhibit low performance to put it lightly and the community have tirelessly been asking for buffs to these ships.  Unfortunately unlike Hipper/Eugen, where they were not only built in a more modern time, they are tiered in that bracket of better consumables/modules (Potential heals, better AA, faster ROF, increase in fire chance).  They're in a bracket where conventional wisdom says, "Hey we have CW and Ranked battles to worry about here Dang It!  We have standards!  Fix those ships!!" and off WG goes to fix (for umpteenth time) the same ship again.  Where as Omaha/sisters/Konigsberg, you can't give them much in the areas of consumables, modules, AA, ROF, fire chance, because of potential Seal Clubbing and balance.

That's one hell of a guess you made on the advancement of other ships, lol.  But after reading all that, what is the end game?  The end game is how to make a these troubled ship not just balanced, but "convenient" to play.  I find no convenience nor does anyone who purchased the premiums in getting our butt blown out of the water from a bow/aft thickness ideology as old as the game!  "It's 10mm because it's a light cruiser"  Well how well did that work out for Emerald?  

If there was a universal fix for the ships I listed, then I haven't heard because there is none.  I repeat, there is none!  Not if you want to start up the whole fiasco of "Eugen is the same as Hipper.  Don't buy".  Which is why I look at the Emerald as the miracle of buffs.  You are absolutely correct, Emerald is not a hot topic anymore, and it's because of the armor thickness buff in my opinion, as well as release of the RN CCs from a while back.  The miracle is you can buff that armor and not have the ships be OP/UP.  All done in a universal way.

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46 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

First off, I'm not looking to buff any type of community, only the ship.  You work with what you got, nobody knows this better than the developers.

The parallels of Omaha/sisters/Konigsberg and the Hipper/Eugen are remarkable.  Both groups exhibit low performance to put it lightly and the community have tirelessly been asking for buffs to these ships.  Unfortunately unlike Hipper/Eugen, where they were not only built in a more modern time, they are tiered in that bracket of better consumables/modules (Potential heals, better AA, faster ROF, increase in fire chance).  They're in a bracket where conventional wisdom says, "Hey we have CW and Ranked battles to worry about here Dang It!  We have standards!  Fix those ships!!" and off WG goes to fix (for umpteenth time) the same ship again.  Where as Omaha/sisters/Konigsberg, you can't give them much in the areas of consumables, modules, AA, ROF, fire chance, because of potential Seal Clubbing and balance.

That's one hell of a guess you made on the advancement of other ships, lol.  But after reading all that, what is the end game?  The end game is how to make a these troubled ship not just balanced, but "convenient" to play.  I find no convenience nor does anyone who purchased the premiums in getting our butt blown out of the water from a bow/aft thickness ideology as old as the game!  "It's 10mm because it's a light cruiser"  Well how well did that work out for Emerald?  

If there was a universal fix for the ships I listed, then I haven't heard because there is none.  I repeat, there is none!  Not if you want to start up the whole fiasco of "Eugen is the same as Hipper.  Don't buy".  Which is why I look at the Emerald as the miracle of buffs.  You are absolutely correct, Emerald is not a hot topic anymore, and it's because of the armor thickness buff in my opinion, as well as release of the RN CCs from a while back.  The miracle is you can buff that armor and not have the ships be OP/UP.  All done in a universal way.

One of the issues with Omaha is that it has thin armor and a high citadel, that's part of the ship and it can be mitigated by belt angling and maneuvering but not by all players. Giving her a 13mm bow won't stop inexperienced players straight-lining past battleships. If you buff ships for the lowest common denominator, that people will club in them very hard is a major risk. Given that Marblehead is already the best performing T5 cruiser (because of selection bias) buffing her significantly... that's questionable to me.

I don't think we're coming from the same position. Konigsberg is really strong. It has a 50.7% 2 week win rate and is second among non-premium T5 cruisers on average damage at 26k, behind only Emile. 26k is fine when Emerald is on 17k and the best in tier, Marblehead- with premium selection bonus - is only 29k. It's not just the stats, my experience pre-360' buff was that Konigsberg was incredibly strong and that seems to be the wider consensus. Bewailing a positive win rate doesn't seem sensible to me.

Therefore, my guess would be that Konigsberg requires no buff, and compared to Emerald will only see a relative benefit from your proposed change. Relatively buffing a good T5 CL at the expense of Emerald, isn't good. There is no reason to do it, and different bow armor is already an established balance factor.

As for Omaha, yes it's a weak ship (as is Marblehead). However I doubt the 10-13mm proposed buff will see any major change in her. Emerald was the worst T5 cruiser stats-wise before that buff, and now she's... still the worst T5 cruiser. Omaha doesn't have problems with bow 6in AP overmatch (and if she did her citadel bulkhead and design are far more suited to avoiding citadels than Emerald). If you were going to buff them I'd look at increasing the Krupp on the AP in-line with the Murmansk, and potentially looking at a better torpedo fit before I even thought about extremity armor.

I don't really see the connection with Hipper/Eugen, or that those ships are a problem. Both Hipper class ships are weak. Both are getting a buff. Expecting a major difference between them isn't that realistic - same class, same refits, need to avoid P2W.

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