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KommandantPerry

Concerning Cruiser survivability

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We've seen quite a few topics on it and an idea that I proposed(as did a few others in the thread)

What if cruiser citadels were removed from magazines? Those areas become regular pen areas. If cruisers are to tanky then revert the fire duration.  Also give the heal at tier 8 for the silver cruisers since Tier 8 cruiser MM is...arguably the most brutal in the game

Also midtier cruisers are where many people stop due to how squishy the become as battleships become more accurate. The tier 10 cruisers are pretty fine but its a long way to reach there. Cruisers are the squishest class and some changes to their surviviability might reduce the amount of 5/2/5 games that are seen well everywhere.

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Giving T8 cruisers heal wouldn't be too unreasonable, but have to be careful to not overbuff them

 

I don't think citadels are a major problem for cruisers. Variations in speed and direction, as well as keeping enough distance from the enemy will minimize the citadels you take. Rear citadels are a bit annoying, but it's just a way of life for some cruisers. 

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I played the entire cruiser lines for IJN and VMF, and never felt the need for increased survivability...  You just can not afford to make as many mistakes as some other classes, but in exchange you have the combination of mobility and firepower, and there has to be price to be paid for that.

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4 minutes ago, mrmariokartguy said:

Giving T8 cruisers heal wouldn't be too unreasonable, but have to be careful to not overbuff them

 

I don't think citadels are a major problem for cruisers. Variations in speed and direction, as well as keeping enough distance from the enemy will minimize the citadels you take. Rear citadels are a bit annoying, but it's just a way of life for some cruisers. 

The heal for the Kidd doesn't upset balance anymore then it being a Fletcher at Tier 8 does. So giving Tier 8 cruisers the same weak heal (100 hp per tick with the India Delta flag) will allow them to atleast recoup some burn damage and overpen chip damage over the course of the battle.

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5 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

I played the entire cruiser lines for IJN and VMF, and never felt the need for increased survivability...  You just can not afford to make as many mistakes as some other classes, but in exchange you have the combination of mobility and firepower, and there has to be price to be paid for that.

So you're saying the USN cruisers should suffer because they have no torpedoes and are essentially smaller BBs with much weaker guns and massive cits?

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I personally do fairly well in my cruisers the main problem is that for well....most players they can't do quite as well as a result the high tier cruiser population is low. Granted this type of change you have to do VERY carefully. You don't want to dumb the game down to much or you get abominations like the RN BB line.

Atleast with a smaller citadel BBs are still rewarded for good aim but it'd help somewhat with I dodged an entire salvo but one shell hit me and cit me.

Just trying to think of ways to try and shake up the meta some to make other lines more popular and a dash more user friendly without making the game easy. I can count on my hands the amount of times i've seen more cruisers than BBs at tiers greater than 7.

Edited by KommandantPerry

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They touch one thing and then eventually end up touching everything to compensate. The game felt more balanced in closed beta and it is clearly being designed with higher tiers in mind, at the expense of lower tiers and new players. They did a lot of the same dollar chasing things to WoT until they drove away most everyone from the very old days, who didn't have a YouTube channel as an excuse to still upload once a week. 

At this point battleships are a dead class below tier 8-9. There is zero reason a new player would grind those lines from scratch unless they hated themselves. 

 

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Battleships are fine below tier 8. The Cruiser BB population is more inline at those tiers. If anything i notice a lack of DDs at tier 6 and 7 but i think thats due to the ships being average and no conceal module.

Tier 3 and 4 is more a problem of certain individual ships being bad. Miyogi Kawachi etc.

Edited by KommandantPerry

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13 minutes ago, mrpoutypants said:

They touch one thing and then eventually end up touching everything to compensate. The game felt more balanced in closed beta and it is clearly being designed with higher tiers in mind, at the expense of lower tiers and new players. They did a lot of the same dollar chasing things to WoT until they drove away most everyone from the very old days, who didn't have a YouTube channel as an excuse to still upload once a week. 

At this point battleships are a dead class below tier 8-9. There is zero reason a new player would grind those lines from scratch unless they hated themselves. 

 

Battleships aren't a class.  They're a ship TYPE.

As for being a dead type below tier 8, I beg to differ.  Good players can do well in low tier BBs.  I just finished my KGV grind last night, and I swear that it felt like I didn't have a single poor game in her.  Well, that's probably confirmation bias, but I'm fairly sure that I had great games in her  far, far more often than I had poor ones.

And frankly, if you don't grind your way up through those lower and mid tier BBs, you'll be a much poorer BB player once you reach tiers 8 and above than you would otherwise.

 

 

16 minutes ago, KommandantPerry said:

Battleships are fine below tier 8. The Cruiser BB population is more inline at those tiers. If anything i notice a lack of DDs at tier 6 and 7 but i think thats due to the ships being average and no conceal module.

Tier 3 and 4 is more a problem of certain individual ships being bad. Miyogi Kawachi etc.

KP, I agree that at tiers 6 and 7, the lack of a concealment module hurts when you're up against tier 8's and 9's that do have it.  it's why I wish that they'd just plain remove the concealment module.  I think that it's unfair for tier 6 and 7 DD's to have to face those higher tier DDs that can mount it.  Tier 8 and 9 DDs already have a concealment advantage based on the normal progression of improvement.  The Concealment module turns a small, evolutionary advantage into a massive and unfair advantage.

 

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I think a side effect of removing cits from cruisers that people love to ignore is that once you do this, a cruiser can evenly trade with a bb, when looking at the percentage of HP both ships will be losing. But i'm all for buffing cruisers, they really do need some love so that it's even easier to burn bbs to the ground

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You can dance all you want in a Cruiser.  When there's enough BBs in the match, it doesn't matter.

 

1 on 1, the strengths, weaknesses between Cruisers and Battleships are just fine.  But when you got these MANY GAMES where there's 4-5 BBs, 4-5 DDs, and Cruisers being the cream in the Oreo cookie sandwich... It doesn't matter, the Cruisers gets eaten up first.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Good grief, @HazeGrayUnderway almost every one of those screenies was of you nuking an RN CL.  I get that we're  talking about cruisers and citadels and all, but jeez, you pick the absolutely squishiest cruisers in the game to make your point.  Good grief, you could fart in the general direction of an RN CL and citadel it!!!  

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You can dance all you want in a Cruiser.  When there's enough BBs in the match, it doesn't matter.

 

1 on 1, the strengths, weaknesses between Cruisers and Battleships are just fine.  But when you got these MANY GAMES where there's 4-5 BBs, 4-5 DDs, and Cruisers being the cream in the Oreo cookie sandwich... It doesn't matter, the Cruisers gets eaten up first.

Really?  Why is it then that I seem to have this annoying habit of being so difficult to kill in my cruisers in those 4-5 BB battles?  I was just in a tier 7 battle in my tier 5 Marblehead with 4-5 BBs per side, and managed to not only survive, but do 90k damage.  I must live a charmed life in my cruisers.

 

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9 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Good grief, @HazeGrayUnderway almost every one of those screenies was of you nuking an RN CL.  I get that we're  talking about cruisers and citadels and all, but jeez, you pick the absolutely squishiest cruisers in the game to make your point.  Good grief, you could fart in the general direction of an RN CL and citadel it!!!  

Targets are targets.  Red is dead.

6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Really?  Why is it then that I seem to have this annoying habit of being so difficult to kill in my cruisers in those 4-5 BB battles?  I was just in a tier 7 battle in my tier 5 Marblehead with 4-5 BBs per side, and managed to not only survive, but do 90k damage.  I must live a charmed life in my cruisers.

 

I don't know.  I squish them just fine.  Matter of fact, unless a critical DD comes up first, I target Cruisers heavily first when I play a Battleship.  They exist to pad my stats.  The lower in tier, the more laughable it gets.

 

Also, let's not pretend that the likes of Pensacola, Indianapolis, New Orleans exist and are pinatas for us to pad our stats with.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Targets are targets.  Red is dead.

I don't know.  I squish them just fine.  Matter of fact, unless a critical DD comes up first, I target Cruisers heavily first when I play a Battleship.  They exist to pad my stats.

A. Yes, targets are targets.  But it's one heck of a lot easier to citadel RN cruisers than other nations' cruisers as a general rule.

B. I do the same thing.  I target cruisers as well.  Regardless, I have a nasty habit of surviving battles or at least surviving a very long time in my cruisers.  I'm not one of those cruisers that lays down and begs for you to cit me in your almighty BB, Haze.  If you're going to sink me in a cruiser, you're gonna have to work for it.  :Smile-_tongue:

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Just now, Crucis said:

A. Yes, targets are targets.  But it's one heck of a lot easier to citadel RN cruisers than other nations' cruisers as a general rule.

B. I do the same thing.  I target cruisers as well.  Regardless, I have a nasty habit of surviving battles or at least surviving a very long time in my cruisers.  I'm not one of those cruisers that lays down and begs for you to cit me in your almighty BB, Haze.  If you're going to sink me in a cruiser, you're gonna have to work for it.  :Smile-_tongue:

Come on, man!

New Orleans

Pensacola

Indianapolis

Atlanta

Baltimore

Des Moines

Prinz Eugen

Adm.Hipper

All IJN Cruisers are floating citadels.

Etc., etc.

Even "Battleship Hindenburg" is vulnerable to long range BB gunfire.

Moskva collapses the moment someone tickles her sides.

All the French Cruisers I have found to be squishy a.f. when I hit them.

 

A number of these Cruisers out there are so vulnerable that people will drop shooting at a broadside BB at 12km if they see that Pensacola at 15km.  They'll take that shot knowing that 1 good salvo and they've racked up enough damage, credits, XPs to come out good for the match.

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The days when the Atago was first released. Now that was a squishy cruiser :-)  I note that there is no mention about the Cleveland being squishy ? is there a glue , maybe ;-)

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I'll admit when i play my BBs i usually go for cruisers first.

My favorites being Pensacola,Mogami,Omahas oh i love omahas and any of the RN CL.

Also @Fog_Battleship_NCarolina  i didn't propose a complete removal only on the magazines. Still far easier to citadel than the Germans, RN BBs and the Iowa/Monty. (i dont have to many issues with Iowa and Monty. i landed a 40k salvo with my bismarck on a monty at 19 KM today.) Also the magazines would still remain normal pen areas and until tier 9 they can't be repaired away.

Edited by KommandantPerry

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1 hour ago, mrmariokartguy said:

Giving T8 cruisers heal wouldn't be too unreasonable, but have to be careful to not overbuff them

 

I don't think citadels are a major problem for cruisers. Variations in speed and direction, as well as keeping enough distance from the enemy will minimize the citadels you take. Rear citadels are a bit annoying, but it's just a way of life for some cruisers. 

That is a good place to start, especially considering T8 matchmaking.

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Shrink cits by removing magazine spaces as suggested by KP and give all cruisers starting at Tier 5 a minor heal ability until they reach Tier 9 where they recieve the full heal ability.

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34 minutes ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

I think a side effect of removing cits from cruisers that people love to ignore is that once you do this, a cruiser can evenly trade with a bb, when looking at the percentage of HP both ships will be losing. But i'm all for buffing cruisers, they really do need some love so that it's even easier to burn bbs to the ground

Ah no. On the rare times that BB AP doesn't citadel my Cruisers (from any angle) it still does heavy damage. Cruisers do not need citadels to be killed by BBs. So even if Cruiser citadels were to be removed, a Cruiser still would'nt be able to slug it out with a BB since CA/CLs would still have much weaker armor and a much lower health pool.

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I think it's more accurate to say some cruisers need their survivability buffed slightly.  Some are fine.

 

I wouldn't really want to see the Hindenburg get tankier.  It already feels stupidly tough.

I'm pretty much ok with Moskva exploding the second it gets flanked.

Not such a big fan of some of the Russian cruisers or USN cruisers that literally have no armor outside the belt that even has the potential to bounce BB AP plus a giant citadel that can be hit from any angle.

Citadel's as punishment for bad play is a positive thing. Citadels as punishment for playing a cruiser is not a positive thing.  

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Just now, Grizley said:

I think it's more accurate to say some cruisers need their survivability buffed slightly.  Some are fine.

 

I wouldn't really want to see the Hindenburg get tankier.  It already feels stupidly tough.

I'm pretty much ok with Moskva exploding the second it gets flanked.

Not such a big fan of some of the Russian cruisers or USN cruisers that literally have no armor outside the belt that even has the potential to bounce BB AP plus a giant citadel that can be hit from any angle.

Citadel's as punishment for bad play is a positive thing. Citadels as punishment for playing a cruiser is not a positive thing.  

And thats the problem with my proposal. The Tier 10s. The cruisers not named moskva and hindenburg would still be fairly squishy but those two become....very durable. Granted rather tweak all cruisers then go back and handle the small handful of outliers.

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Just now, ReddNekk said:

Ah no. On the rare times that BB AP doesn't citadel my Cruisers (from any angle) it still does heavy damage. Cruisers do not need citadels to be killed by BBs. So even if Cruiser citadels were to be removed, a Cruiser still would'nt be able to slug it out with a BB since CA/CLs would still have much weaker armor and a much lower health pool.

 

He's not wrong.  It's entirely possible a CA with no citadel could win a game of roshambo with a BB.  A Des Moines that catches a BB at close range can already do that if they start full health.  

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