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Stauffenberg44

The Dreadnoughts - "Fear Nothing"

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A documentary about the dreadnoughts, starting with Nelson's ship of the line Victory, CSS Viginia vs USS Monitor and the first ironclad battleships, the first modern naval battle of Tsushima Strait with pre-dreadnoughts, the study of which profoundly influenced the development of dreadnoughts via Jackie Fischer. This short documentary manages to cover a lot of ground historically, as well as describing the intricate new manual and mechanical engineering involved in creating this new breed of super battleship. Also noted are the German dreadnoughts that appeared, their differences, and generally better armour. In this, if the British had their Jackie Fisher, the Germans had Tirpitz pushing through a modern dreadnought-led Imperial German Navy with the support of the Kaiser. Ending with a fine description of Jutland and the legacy of the dreadnoughts in naval history:

 

 

My thread on pre-dreadnoughts and select dreadnoughts. Drop in and vote for their inclusion:

 

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[WOLF4] DingBat 566
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You can make a strong argument that the Dreadnought caused WWI or, at least, made it much worse than it would have been otherwise. 

Nowadays, we'd call it a "disruptive" innovation. :)

Edited by DingBat

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Interesting, though I did have a discussion years ago with a guy who claimed the High Seas Fleet was a coastal fleet.  When challenged he stated early German dreadnaughts rolled heavily in open seas, as a result they are only coastal ships.

Also had another guy try and tell me the turret was a failed invention.  His reason, the designers didn't allow 360 degree firing.  Um, superstructure, but to him that didn't matter.

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40 minutes ago, DingBat said:

You can make a strong argument that the Dreadnought caused WWI or, at least, made it much worse than it would have been otherwise. 

Nowadays, we'd call it a "disruptive" innovation. :)

Yeah Naval Arms Race did contribute greatly since after they built increasely larger and ever more powerful fleets of ships they had growing desire to use them.

I must say though I do greatly enjoy the dreadnaughts in game.

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You will have to go digging through Youtube a little, but seems like they have handful of good Dreadnaught documentaries, some of them are under Battle of Jutland, but explain a lot of things about Dreadnaughts and Battlecruisers.

What I found interest in is Jutland and the disasterous loss of several British ships was not the fault of the Admiral, but rather the vice admiral who made mistakes, then had to cover them up and get Blame shifted onto the admiral which is easy enough when you had wealth and influence. Fun detail was found out later, fairly recently some original battle charts were found in somebody's house and apparently the Admiral had amazing navigator on board since they recorded the fleet movements and exactly where the ships sank.

Today we have had diver's go down to inspect the Jutland wrecks and GPS their positions and what amazes me is the original chart of where the ships went down is accurate within quarter mile or less of where the ships sit on sea floor...

And that was done without modern navigation  equipment and during battle of Jutland.

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26 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah Naval Arms Race did contribute greatly since after they built increasely larger and ever more powerful fleets of ships they had growing desire to use them.

I must say though I do greatly enjoy the dreadnaughts in game.

Definitely, but I was thinking more about the fact that Britain usually kept out of European affairs unless someone threatened their empire. No one had done that for a long time, until Germany starting building their own fleet of dreadnoughts. And the only reason this could happen was that HMS Dreadnought reset everyone's navies back to 0. 

The race forced Britain to be drawn deeper into European alliances, which is frankly what made it a world war. 

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8 minutes ago, DingBat said:

Definitely, but I was thinking more about the fact that Britain usually kept out of European affairs unless someone threatened their empire. No one had done that for a long time, until Germany starting building their own fleet of dreadnoughts. And the only reason this could happen was that HMS Dreadnought reset everyone's navies back to 0. 

The race forced Britain to be drawn deeper into European alliances, which is frankly what made it a world war. 

Was not only the Germans, but also a few other nations building them as well and Britain I believe at the time felt they needed to have a navy bigger than any 2 nations...

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[70] Guardian54 69
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I find your thread title inaccurate, see my signature for details.

 

Now that that's over with...

I did a tiering experiment over the last 24 hours.

British destroyers or destroyer-type ships (including torpedo gunboats and the early torpedo boats leading to DDs) fit reasonably sanely into 30 tiers starting with HMS Lightning (1876), the first torpedo boat (2 14-inch torps, NO GUNS), and ending with the Daring Class of 1949 with their 3x2 113mm 24 RPM autoloading pewpew.

The battleships on the other hand, starting with Devastation (1874), only manage to get to Tier 29 with Lion B3 1944 proposal even without lumping HMS Neptune in with St. Vincent class.

The destroyers finished WWI after Tier 19, with tier 20 being the HMS Amazon, but the BBs took until Tier 23 with the Renown to finish WWI. So everything past Vanguard (at Tier 27) would have to be paper ships, because I really doubt the Lion B3 1944 could stand up to the Montana, A-150, H-44, etc. Hell I'm not sure it's a good idea throwing it up against the Yamato (with RL terribad Japanese fire control)! Though that's at least comparable in all respects to the Iowa...

EDIT: Holy BLEEP I forgot that I had marked Iowa down as "should be equal to Montana due to 5 knots speed advantage and slightly better fire control due to aft turret not being scattered as much by blast". Yeah the Lion B3 1944 only has one crucial problem... it's only 30 knots. The 2ndaries would be almost equal too, as 6x2 114mm at 24 RPM vs 10x2 127mm at 15 RPM give 144 vs 150 shells per flank per second, but it's still not enough.

Edited by Guardian54

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1 hour ago, Guardian54 said:

I find your thread title inaccurate, see my signature for details.

Well that's a minor quibble surely. In any case I am quoting naval historian John Winton from the YouTube I posted and you are quoting Wikipedia.

3 hours ago, DingBat said:

You can make a strong argument that the Dreadnought caused WWI or, at least, made it much worse than it would have been otherwise. 

Nowadays, we'd call it a "disruptive" innovation. :)

Not much argument that the naval arms race leading up to WW I added to the explosive political mix.

2 hours ago, Wowzery said:

Interesting, though I did have a discussion years ago with a guy who claimed the High Seas Fleet was a coastal fleet.  When challenged he stated early German dreadnaughts rolled heavily in open seas, as a result they are only coastal ships.

Also had another guy try and tell me the turret was a failed invention.  His reason, the designers didn't allow 360 degree firing.  Um, superstructure, but to him that didn't matter.

Had to dig around for that thanks, but yes the Nassau class had this rolling problem which resulted in bilge keels being added to later German dreadnoughts.

Actually the first armoured turret on a ship did have 360 degree firing. I mention it in my description of the documentary above. Bonus points for naming it. :cap_look:

Edited by Stauffenberg44

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2 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

What I found interest in is Jutland and the disasterous loss of several British ships was not the fault of the Admiral, but rather the vice admiral who made mistakes, then had to cover them up and get Blame shifted onto the admiral which is easy enough when you had wealth and influence.

What I find really interesting is not just the vulnerability of the British BCs but the durability of the Germans who opted for less speed and more armour. One of my favourite ships I would love to see included I look at in my pre-dead & dread thread is von der Tann. Now this is a beautiful ship with surprisingly modern lines:

5a83717a41a39_FFVonderTann.jpg.c19baa4c9a50c397e76b7fc27b1666bc.jpg

Edited by Stauffenberg44
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46 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Well that's a minor quibble surely. In any case I am quoting naval historian John Winton from the YouTube I posted and you are quoting Wikipedia.

I find it curious that this is more interesting to you than managing to dice up 29 tiers from the earliest de facto pre-dreadnought to the last RN BB, and 30 for the first torpedo boat to the last all-gun DDs.

Thankfully these Russian companies like to stay with 10-tier games, creating a niche for the next generation of tank/ship games :D

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54 minutes ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

Well that's a minor quibble surely. In any case I am quoting naval historian John Winton from the YouTube I posted and you are quoting Wikipedia.

Not much argument that the naval arms race leading up to WW I added to the explosive political mix.

Had to dig around for that thanks, but yes the Nassau class had this rolling problem which resulted in bilge keels being added to later German dreadnoughts.

Actually the first armoured turret on a ship did have 360 degree firing. I mention it in my description of the documentary above. Bonus points for naming it. :cap_look:

That's be the Monitor. 

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43 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

I find it curious that this is more interesting to you than managing to dice up 29 tiers from the earliest de facto pre-dreadnought to the last RN BB, and 30 for the first torpedo boat to the last all-gun DDs.

You're right I didn't do that justice as I was quick-responding before dinner--my bad.

I'd be interested in seeing how you parse these 29-30 tiers. Why not post it on here somewhere.

Where, for example, would you place this amazing ship, one I included on my thread just for interest's sake, a tier 1 early BB at best--the French Redoubtable:

 

595f7d96a0241_FFRedoutable.jpg.b9fc99ebb61f37bc4e74395230610b63.jpg

Notes

Spoiler

"Redoutable was a central battery and barbette ship of the French Navy launched in the 1880s. She was the first warship in the world to use steel as the principal building material. Compared to iron, steel allowed for greater structural strength for a lower weight. France was the first country to manufacture steel in large quantities, using the Siemens process At that time, steel plates still had some defects, and the outer bottom plating of the ship was made of wrought iron.

The Redoutable is built partly of iron and partly of steel and is similar in many respects to the ironclads Devastation and Courbet of the same fleet, although rather smaller. She is completely belted with 14 in [360 mm] armour, with a 15 in [380 mm] backing, and has the central battery armoured with plates of 9½ in [240 mm] in thickness.

The engines are two in number, horizontal, and of the compound two cylinder type, developing a horsepower of 6,071 [4.527 MW], which on the trial trip gave a speed of 14.66 knots. Five hundred and ten tons of coal are carried in the bunkers, which at a speed of 10 knots should enable the ship to make a voyage of 2,800 nautical miles [5,200 km]. Torpedo defense netting is fitted, and there are three masts with military tops carrying Hotchkiss revolver machine guns.

The offensive power of the ship consists of seven breechloading rifled guns of 27 centimeters (10.63 in.), and weighing 24 tons each, six breechloading rifled guns of 14 centimeters (5.51 in.), and quick-firing and machine guns of the Hotchkiss systems. There are in addition four torpedo discharge tubes, two on each side of the ship.

The positions of the guns are as follows: Four of 27 centimeters in the central battery, two on each broadside; three 27 centimeter guns on the upper deck in barbettes, one on each side amidships, and one aft. The 14 centimeter guns are in various positions on the broadsides, and the machine guns are fitted on deck, on the bridges, and in the military tops, four of them also being mounted on what is rather a novelty in naval construction, a gallery running round the outside of the funnel, which was fitted when the ship was under repairs some months ago.

There are three electric light projectors, one forward on the upper deck, one on the bridge just forward of the funnel, and one in the mizzen top."

from Scientific American 1881

from:

 

 

Edited by Stauffenberg44

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1 hour ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

You're right I didn't do that justice as I was quick-responding before dinner--my bad.

I'd be interested in seeing how you parse these 29-30 tiers. Why not post it on here somewhere.

Where, for example, would you place this amazing ship, one I included on my thread just for interest's sake, a tier 1 early BB at best--the French Redoubtable:

I would put it at Tier 2. However, the lowest tiers I have are all overcrowded with diverse first-, second- and third-rate warships, ugh...

However, I go with "every single weapon can be manual controlled to some efficacy" for tiering, hence secondary batteries can have a critical effect (they're not really considered later on for DDs yet, despite 40mm Bofors penning DDs from something like 4 kilometers easily).

The Tier 1s I have down right now are purely Royal Navy stuff.

HMS Lightning (1876) for destroyer lineage (yes, it's a torp boat I know, with NO GUNS...)

Devastation class (1874 load-out, the 1892 refit is up at Tier 5 due to 2ndary battery hosing and breech-loader guns for ROF) for battleships

HMS Shannon (1875) for heavy cruisers

Iris-class (1877) for light cruisers

Right now the clearly different levels of first-class armoured cruiser (i.e. circa 14,000 ton vs 9000 ton, and for 2nd/3rd rate cruisers the 9000 vs 5000 vs 3000 ton) are giving me a headache for tiering purposes without crossing a few too many wires for design lineages and some semblance of balance.

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25 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

(they're not really considered later on for DDs yet, despite 40mm Bofors penning DDs from something like 4 kilometers easily)

Well here's a film that might interest you:

NLL.jpg.0d882135872f40ec137b8f31a49967b3.jpg

Northern Limit Line (Yeonpyeong Haejeon; lit. Battle of Yeonpyeong) is a 2015 South Korean naval action film based on the real-life events of the Second Battle of Yeonpyeong.

The South Korean PKM 35 featured two Vulcan gatling AA, while the ROKN 684 had a T-34 tank turret mounted.

It makes you wonder about the addition of a sub-DD patrol class of ships for tier I & II. Highly maneuverable ships engaged in very close in brawling and ramming (which happened in the batte). Hmmm...

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13 hours ago, Stauffenberg44 said:

The South Korean PKM 35 featured two Vulcan gatling AA, while the ROKN 684 had a T-34 tank turret mounted.

It makes you wonder about the addition of a sub-DD patrol class of ships for tier I & II. Highly maneuverable ships engaged in very close in brawling and ramming (which happened in the batte). Hmmm...

What I more specifically meant was that... I kind of have no idea how to balance the Forrest Sherman Class DD versus the USS Norfolk (DL-1) (1959) versus the Daring-class DD as tier 30 vehicles in my tiering experiment. (Year of commission)

Forrest Sherman (1955): 32.5 knots, 4050 tons full load, 3x1 5"/54 Mk 42 (40 RPM) to 23,700m + 2x2 3"/50 Mk 33 (45-50 RPM) to 13400m + 2x Mk 10/11 Hedgehogs (a close range bombardment weapon used vs other DDs in knife fights and in campaign missions) + 1x4 533mm torps

USS Norfolk (1953): 32 knots, 5600 ton full load, 4x2 3"/70 (90-100 RPM, AFAIK per gun) to 17800m by 1959, 4x Weapon Alpha ASW rockets (range 730m, big rocket to face hurts knife fighters!) + 2x4 533mm torps

Daring (1952): 30 knots, 3820 tons full load, 3x2 4.5"/45 Mk V (24 RPM) to 19,000m + 3x2 40mm/60 Bofors (120 RPM, rising to 160 at zero range) to 10,000m (HE should still inflict scratch damage to superstructures, AP can pen DD superstructures reliably at 15mm pen only inside 4km, and can hole hulls at 3km) + 2x5 533mm torps Mk IX + 1x Squid AS mortar (read: basically laying mines 250m ahead of you to damage a chasing opponent, also good for campaign missions, if it's not a turntable mount)

 

I get the feeling those rates of fire are a wee bit difficult to balance for. Also trying to make the close-range weapons not just decor is annoying as hell.

The practical RPM for the 5"/54 Mk 42 was actually closer to the later de-rate to 28 RPM and the 4.5"/45 was 18 RPM manual loading, and the 3"/70 autoloader had problems too. I rounded up on their ranges, as practical max range is notably more than 45 degree range IRL.

 

EDIT: Looks like I'll be nerfing those rates of fire down (to actual historical rates of fire, which are far less) for less power gap in the later tiers.

Curiously the gun power disparity despite gun handling (e.g. better fire control) means the Akizuki 1959 is at absolute best equal to the Gearing at Tier 28. And the Akizuki (1942) would on gun power be Tier 29, and the Super Akizuki (1943) be Tier 30 (15 RPM typical on 8 guns is 120 shells/minute, Daring has 6 guns and 18 RPM historical rushed manual loading for 108 shells/minute, looks balanceable.

Unfortunately that means the Super Shimakaze is Tier 28, Shimakaze is Tier 27 (with the likes of Wartime Tribal Class with 3x2 120L45 and 1x2 102mm, Allem M Sumner, Porter class DLs, Southampton/Gloucester, HMS Vanguard, and Dido Group 2), and following historical IJN DD progression puts the Fubuki down at Tier 20 with the Clemson. Now, that could actually work as Clemson is more nimble, has more gun power once upgraded and can fire more torpedoes...

Fubuki: 2050 tons, 118m long, 38 knots, 3x3 Type 8 Torpedoes (24-inch), 3x2 127mm guns (slow turrets)

Clemson: 1308 tons, 96m long, 35.5 knots, 4x3 21-inch torps, 4x2 102mm guns (fast traverse)

This seriously makes me consider lumping Kagero/Yugumo together as the differences there are very minor, because you can be sure that both sides are going to whine like hell about how the Fubuki is so much newer... or how the Clemson can dodge and knife-fight better with its guns.

At the same tier I currently also have HMS Amazon: 1350 ton "displacement" (I presume standard, full would be around 1850 then as per interwar UK DD standard descended from the type), 37 knots, 4x1 4.7" Mk 1, 2x3 21" torps, presumably more compact and knifey than Fubuki, faster and with much more health than Clemson and less torpedo mounts to hit and explode... looks balance-able with some work.

Edited by Guardian54

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DERP, I FORGOT TO QUOTE YOU TO NOTIFY YOU!

*Not sure if editing your quote in would send you a notification, not risking it*

On 2/13/2018 at 7:36 PM, Stauffenberg44 said:

I'd be interested in seeing how you parse these 29-30 tiers. Why not post it on here somewhere.

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