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Sabot_100

DDs in Operations?

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Went into the current Operation with 2 DDs and no BBs on the team. Barely (one low health Cleveland left) squeaked out a low star win. Both DDs died fairly early. Except for the Dunkirk OP which only had DDs or some of the Halloween OPs where torp reloads were tweaked and a heal circle was readily available, are there any Operations where a DD is a good choice,? Where it helps the team more than any other ship type? Seems like scouting and capping aren't factors. You are generally very quickly up close and personal with the suicide charging enemy.  At such ranges the DDs can't tank damage and can't dish it out like a cruiser can except for torps. You can cruise up next to a target and unload and probably survive the trip. Problem is the exit and having the health to try again later. A ship-for-ship trade is a very bad exchange in an OP. The problems with the torps are:

1. if you team is doing its job, your target will be sunk, or nearly so, by the time most of your torps arrive so long range torp shots are problematic.

2. You often have mostly bow-on targets so only get one hit.

3. you have shot your wad and now have to be an inferior (compared to a cruiser) gunboat until reloaded.

DDs can provide smoke but that may just turn the ally not hidden into THE target for the bad guys.

On the plus side, YOU CAN'T TORP ALLIES! so it is a free fire zone and the bots don't dodge much.

I love to drive DDs myself and they are critical in Randoms, just not sure they are the best choice for OPS. A gunboat DD is probably the better choice over stealth-torp DD, but would a cruiser still do the job even better?

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For Ops, usually, yes. Cruisers are  a better pick than DD's

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MeanDarlingGemsbuck-size_restricted.gif

 

I'd rather not have to fill this one of screenies of DD's placing top in all Op's...  But suffice it to say, DD's can be far from useless in OP's.

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If you're good at DDs you can reliably come out on top. Gunboats do work better though.

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If the player is competent in DD play, a Fushun or Anshan work just fine in tier 6 OPs, Leningrad or Minsk in tier 7 OPs.  As PewPew said, gunboats bring a lot more to the table than Torpedo boats.  Frankly bad BB players are more of a curse than meh DD players.

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1 hour ago, Volron said:

MeanDarlingGemsbuck-size_restricted.gif

 

I'd rather not have to fill this one of screenies of DD's placing top in all Op's...  But suffice it to say, DD's can be far from useless in OP's.

I'm sorry, but those examples are the exception, not the rule.  In battles (i.e. Operations) where you will be  vastly outnumbered all the time, durability is much more important than whatever a DD can bring to the table in Operations.

Torps will rarely be useful, and whatever gunboating a good gunboat DD can do, a cruiser can do better.  You end up in a tier 7 operation, you'll almost always see someone in an Atlanta, Belfast, or Fiji on top because they have great rates of fire, respectable durability (particularly when you add in the fact that these operations have a place to repair your ship's HP).  Hey, the Atlanta is basically an oversized DD with a lot more guns and excellent AA (which is valuable in tier 7 ops).

 

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26 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

If the player is competent in DD play, a Fushun or Anshan work just fine in tier 6 OPs, Leningrad or Minsk in tier 7 OPs.  As PewPew said, gunboats bring a lot more to the table than Torpedo boats.  Frankly bad BB players are more of a curse than meh DD players.

Bad PLAYERS are more of a curse, regardless of what type of ship they're in.  Some BBs are nearly a necessity.  Perhaps more so in the tier 7 base defense.  But you can spot the bad BB player right away.  They're the one in the slow BB who decides to wander far from their base on the t7 base defense and manages to get himself killed FAR too early in the scenario.  Slow BBs should stay "close to home" and let the fast BBs (like the Scharnhorsts) be the ones to engage a bit further from the base, simply because they have the speed to get back in a timely manner.

As for tier 7 op DDs, the problem I see is that the base assault mission tend to be too close quarters for a Russian DD to be all that good.  Early in the mission, perhaps.  But later on, you want turrets that turn a LOT faster, so a Mahan or Sims, or possibly a Gadjah Madah.

But to be honest, I would MUCH rather see players in cruisers than DDs in pretty much all of the operations.

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

are there any Operations where a DD is a good choice?

Not really, as WoW is totally battleship focused. They don't call it World of Battleships for nothing.

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1 hour ago, Volron said:

But suffice it to say, DD's can be far from useless in OP's.

A good player can do great in a DD...but probably would have done even better in a decent cruiser.   Even amongst CAs and BBs, not all at a given tier will do equally well in a Scenario, even if they do OK in Randoms. Having a ship with no AA for example is BAD because you know will be seeing planes in most OPs. Therefore a Texas is far superior to a New York (would be if they had T5 OPs anyway).

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The first few Operations maps, a DD was the worse thing you could bring. Of course, the bots were on crack at that point. The second you let your fish swim, they were already moving to avoid.

 

If you take a DD into any of them, use your guns as primary and torps secondary.

 

Fire from smoke, behind an island, or behind a friendly. It's not like you have to spot.

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4 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

are there any Operations where a DD is a good choice,? 

The only one where I've seen much of any use for a DD was Raptor Rescue.  And that's because the enemy has some sneaky IJN DDs and it doesn't hurt to have ONE DD screen your fleet, preferably a DD with decent stealth and good guns, like a Farragut.  The Farragut can spot the enemy DDs and eliminate them.  And then can be useful spotting other enemy ships, and maybe some smoke shooting, or other things.

But I don't recall any of the other operations being remotely decent for DDs.  The enemy DDs don't tend to operate under stealth, so you rarely need to have a DD screen for you.  And IMO, anything a gunboat DD can do, a cruiser can do better in these operations, mostly due to their great durability.

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

I'm sorry, but those examples are the exception, not the rule.  In battles (i.e. Operations) where you will be  vastly outnumbered all the time, durability is much more important than whatever a DD can bring to the table in Operations.

Torps will rarely be useful, and whatever gunboating a good gunboat DD can do, a cruiser can do better.  You end up in a tier 7 operation, you'll almost always see someone in an Atlanta, Belfast, or Fiji on top because they have great rates of fire, respectable durability (particularly when you add in the fact that these operations have a place to repair your ship's HP).  Hey, the Atlanta is basically an oversized DD with a lot more guns and excellent AA (which is valuable in tier 7 ops).

 

The blanket statement that DD's are useless in Op's is annoying.  It's the T5 argument all over again (though the reasons for that argument were more valid, it too was annoying).  Yes, a few folks that take a DD into an Op are useless (had one special cupcake in one a couple of matches ago, who afk'd after he spent most of the match accomplishing jack and spit, then sat back and watched as Romeo got sunk and was pissy about it), but that doesn't mean a DD doesn't have advantages over the other classes.  Their more frequent torpedo attacks, smoke and engine boost can make a solid difference.  Causing them to turn not only gives your team a better shot (broadsides FTW :Smile_great:), but it delay's the advance.  It also at times causes them to crash into each other presenting a cluster of targets for other torpedo attacks (from other ships) to rain havoc on (plus it's hilarious to see :Smile_teethhappy:).  If you execute the attack properly, you'll score hits, even in the IJN DD's who have the WORSE detection range out of all of them.  Their EB means they can cover ground very quickly, from stopping that sneaky low HP ship from crossing the line, to getting to Romeo and smoking her escape.

 

Everyone keeps disregarding the strengths, and only focusing on the weakness of the DD.  "But you said it yourself, a few folks that bring DD are useless".  And?  How is it any different if the CV, BB and/or CA is useless?  If anything, we stand to lose a lot more with a useless CV/BB/CA vs a DD.  What's kind of hilarious, this defense of DD's in Op's comes from a BB main.

 

shot-18_02.07_19_06.08-0960.thumb.jpg.2bb0171e974aae08393eb5a13a2c6101.jpg

 

Guess the outcome of this match. :Smile_Default:

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The problem is that DD's strengths are mostly un-utilized, or at least severely discounted in their relative value to Operations. Whereas Operations play to CA and BB's strengths.

The vast majority of positioning in Operations is a chase or a head-on engagement, something where DD's torps are really not very good - the hit rate goes down drastically.  And even in a gunboat DD, your DPM is pretty awful. Smoke is also surprisingly far less useful in most operations than it is in Random.

Looking at them so far:

DNSNewport:  DDs are mostly useless. This is heavily a "rush the base" operation, and torp angles are, for the most part, horrible.  You have to spend a large amount of time running around trying to get a good launch angle - so much so that torps are virtually useless. SOME gunboating is possible, particularly against the enemy DDs.  But again, I can't see choosing a DD over a cruiser here - Cleveland and Budyonny are extremely strong here, as is La Glass, and picking a DD over one of them is, well, not advisable.

RaptorRescue:  yeah, AA is important, and well, the less that's said about DD's AA, the better.  Here, DD's speed can be very useful. However, the big problem is, once again, that it's REALLY difficult to get good torpedo angles on stuff, so you're reduced to gunboating, and your health isn't so great for this.

Aegis:  Frankly, the biggest benefit from DDs in this game is to set up an initial smoke screen and do some torping at the beginning. After that, you're reduced to pretty much running the entire length of the map to get to their CVs for a CV snipe.  Pick a US or PA DD if you're gonna do this one.

TUF:  yeah, no.  Nothing a DD can do here that a cruiser can't do far, far better. This is an AA & DPM Operation. Not something DDs should be playing on.

KillerWhale:  DDs are surprisingly good here for the quick "in and out" operation, with their main contribution being that they're excellent for covering the final stage retreat. Anything but a IJN DDs is probably a decent pick.

Narhi:   DDs can be of some use here, as there's lots of close-in work to be done. The problem is that DDs survivability isn't too good, and most of this map is brawling. I'd go for the KM or USSR ones here with their fast-reload torps and big health pool as well as strong guns.

 

Realistically, I'd not want more than a single DD on my team in any Operation, and it really should be either a KM or US one, as they offer the most useful combination of gunpower, smoke, and torps. 

 

I'm a DD main, and the reality is that for the average to average/good player, you're by far the most successful (and contribute the most to a win) in a cruiser over a DD.  Let's put it this way:  ALL the games above can gain a 5-star win EASILY without any DDs.  The same cannot be said for any Operation that has 2 or more DDs.  You can easily overload on BBs, too, with more than 3 making an Op very difficult to complete. But BBs in numbers aren't anywhere near the drag on the Op's success rate as more than a single DD is.

 

 

 

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shot-18_02.07_19_06.08-0960.thumb.jpg.2bb0171e974aae08393eb5a13a2c6101.jpg

shot-18_02.07_19.06_02-0160.thumb.jpg.b304cf86cac43821c9cdc7c10e98dd63.jpg\

 

Not for a second did I think this was unwinnable.  I did think it would be tough however.  But, sure looks possible to me to 5 star an OP with more than 2 DD's, 0 BB's and no CV.  And no, I wouldn't call that a carry by any stretch.

 

shot-18_02.09_21_12.01-0660.thumb.jpg.eb5bee4c1815ab361af2d364ccea04ed.jpg

shot-18_02.09_21_12.07-0662.thumb.jpg.0f8274dc0e9c22275d19c26f2be4050e.jpg

 

So what counter will there be to this?  "You can contribute more to the win in so-so".  I placed top.  "You can do better in so-so".  I placed top.  So now what?  The point is, if I can do it, who happens to be by no means a DD main, then it should be something a DD main could do in their sleep.  It also means that others could do it as well.  I have plenty of screenshots where we 5 star'd the Op and I placed top in a DD.  This isn't some one off thing.

FYI, Buki derped.  It happens.  I've done it myself, and I'll end up doing it again.  I will admit, that derping in a DD is THE most unforgiving thing to do in, but derping in any of the other class types generally nets the same result with exception to CV.  Team loses out on the power the CV can put down if they derp (botched drops).

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I dont hesitate to bring a gunboat DD.  Torps are mostly useless since the patch buffing AI unless launched from very close to your detection range.  They tend to start dodging your torps just after you launch them.

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