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Aetreus

Show Enemy AA Range to CV

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Basically, there should be a UI indicator with the AA range of(spotted) enemies. Probably not the DPS and all of the individual circles, but at least an indicator that beyond this line, there is AA fire from enemy ships.

 

It's already functionally possible to figure this out and keep track of who has AA fits, by looking at ships in the loading screen or by probing their AA manually(aircraft indicate when they're under attack). The issue is that this consumes attention and time, along with memorization, which tends to favor veteran CV drivers. Mechanically it's a punishment particularly of the inexperienced, who aren't used to facing ships with increasingly long ranged AA and tendency to fit range extension modules as tiers go up(UK CL T9+, Soviet BB whenever they show up with BL-109A, various 5.2km AA ships).

 

Also, while we're at the CV UI, can we have the taking damage indication be a little more prominent? Put some sort of overlay on the icon at the bottom of the screen rather than making the squadron icon in main screen flash occasionally. And maybe intensity too- surely your pilots could tell you that they're taking a lot of fire in a way other than dying.

 

Adding UI stuff like this to CV should in theory flatten the skill curve, because more skilled players have better understanding of mechanics(well I hope) and tricks to figure out information like this.

 

WRT everyone who doesn't drive CV, yes, I get it, this will make CV a little more dangerous on average. There's things that should be nerfed about them- especially when it comes to vision control, which this would make more powerful. I understand. Please don't leave 20 comments about how CV should be removed from the game.

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I like it, but we gonna need a trade. You can't spot for other ships with your aircraft outside of the spotted ship appearing on the mini-map.

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This would be yet another "dumbing down"  of the game. I once played a major franchise were the developers thought that dumbing down their new game and making it "easier to play" would be a good thing. Their new game lasted only a short time before the server was shut down due to lack of interest. In a game there should be things that distinguish very good players from halfway decent players. One of these things, in WOWS, is taking the time to learn about the ships that you will be facing. Knowing your competition doesn't just apply to games either. How do you think the most competitive businesses stay on top, or the managers within them who are competing for a higher rung on the corporate ladder? 

Edited by Snargfargle
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14 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

This would be yet another "dumbing down"  of the game. I once played a major franchise were the developers thought that dumbing down their new game and making it "easier to play" would be a good thing. Their new game lasted only a short time before the server was shut down due to lack of interest. In a game there should be things that distinguish very good players from halfway decent players. One of these things, in WOWS, is taking the time to learn about the ships that you will be facing. Knowing your competition doesn't just apply to games either. How do you think the most competitive businesses stay on top, or the managers within them who are competing for a higher rung on the corporate ladder? 

There's a difference between "dumbing down" and making the information presented to the player deliberately obtuse. It's perfectly possible to memorize or write down the upgraded AA values of every ship in the game and therefore know their AA fit at a glance in the loading screen. But this is not a game about bookkeeping and reference charts. You could also glue a pixel ruler to your screen so that you can measure precisely how far your planes are from the enemy. But this is again, not what the game is or should be about. If we didn't have AA modules and captain skills that futz with range and damage, we wouldn't need any sort of UI feature to identify them, but we do, and making them invisible just hides information from the player unless they engage in a bunch of tedious and unfun fiddling.

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What if they have AFT? What if they don't? Or AA module range upgrade? Do you get this information or just stock info?

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Just now, Stonehammers said:

What if they have AFT? What if they don't? Or AA module range upgrade? Do you get this information or just stock info?

Actual range of their AA guns, including module and captain bonuses. Conceptually if they lost all of their outer AA band(it's possible if rare) it would show only their middle AA range.

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35 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Mechanically it's a punishment particularly of the inexperienced

So, if you think education is expensive, go with ignorance! Like @Snargfargle stated above, it's supposed to be harder on the inexperienced; that is the main motivation for becoming more skilled. If everything is laid at your feet, so to speak, what motivation do you have for improving both your skill set and your understanding of the game. Not to mention it would be just one more thing to include in programming which eats up memory and slows the game down.

However, some things which would "simplify" the CV game; remove fighters. One less thing for you to worry about, so now you can concentrate on just driving your ship, your dive bombers, and your torpedo planes. Give every ship the defensive AA consumable, and drop it back down to it's original strength. Now you don't have to worry about which planes have good or bad AA; they all have AA, and it becomes a risk for a CV to attack anyone, which is exactly the way it should be in a balanced game.

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1 minute ago, Umikami said:

So, if you think education is expensive, go with ignorance! Like @Snargfargle stated above, it's supposed to be harder on the inexperienced; that is the main motivation for becoming more skilled. If everything is laid at your feet, so to speak, what motivation do you have for improving both your skill set and your understanding of the game. Not to mention it would be just one more thing to include in programming which eats up memory and slows the game down.

However, some things which would "simplify" the CV game; remove fighters. One less thing for you to worry about, so now you can concentrate on just driving your ship, your dive bombers, and your torpedo planes. Give every ship the defensive AA consumable, and drop it back down to it's original strength. Now you don't have to worry about which planes have good or bad AA; they all have AA, and it becomes a risk for a CV to attack anyone, which is exactly the way it should be in a balanced game.

CV has too many skill mechanics already, which is why the skill gap is so wide. And this particular skill mechanic is "solved" in a way that isn't particularly fun or fitting within the game's structure. If this game is seriously slowed by the calculations necessary to draw a line around ships using a number the game already tracks, something is seriously wrong with the programming team.

Also, you're proposing a way more drastic reduction in CV skill mechanics that would completely reshape their role in the game. And AA mechanics as well. And the original DFAA was stronger, BTW.

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Half the time that I get to make easy strikes on when playing against an experienced CV captain it's because the CA I was kiting their planes towards had it's AA off and didn't turn it on until the enemy planes were too close. By giving definite do not cross lines, you're not just equalizing the skill gap. You're easily pointing out whose an AA build an who isn't at a glance. Only strike ships with small circles. Now as a surface ship you're forced to take AFT and the range AA module just to appear as menacing to the CV as possible so that you're not an obvious target. Bad/uninformed players won't do this, so you're just making them more apparent to good CV players, even if their in reputationally good AA ships.

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2 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

CV has too many skill mechanics already, which is why the skill gap is so wide. And this particular skill mechanic is "solved" in a way that isn't particularly fun or fitting within the game's structure. If this game is seriously slowed by the calculations necessary to draw a line around ships using a number the game already tracks, something is seriously wrong with the programming team.

Also, you're proposing a way more drastic reduction in CV skill mechanics that would completely reshape their role in the game. And AA mechanics as well. And the original DFAA was stronger, BTW.

CVs are very powerful; in skilled hands they are game changers while in unskilled hands they are team wreckers. THAT is the reason for the disparity amongst CV drivers, NOT the mechanics of CV's.

And, FYI, every additional calc required slows the game engine, so every line of code matters.

The "more drastic" reduction I propose would only simplify a UI which, in your own statement, is over complicated already.

And as a Yubari plank owner, someone who has fought the ship since CBT, AA was drastically nerfed when CBT gave way to OBT so, no, the old AA which the playing public had access to was NOT stronger. It was in CBT, but not after the transition. AA got totaled for OBT, with some ships losing complete hull selections and everyone losing much of their AA potential. And this was BEFORE BB whining really got started.

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I like the idea of seeing a bar decrease as your planes take damage, not unlike the ship HP bar.  I don't see how that would dumb things down any.

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I don't think this information needs to be gift wrapped like this, but just being able to know the distances from a certain plane would be nice.

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There is the option for AA equipped ships to show their AA range by clicking on the gear above the minimap...I think it would be fair for the CV to be able to see the AA range of those ships but not ships that aren't using that advantage.

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1 hour ago, Aetreus said:

Actual range of their AA guns, including module and captain bonuses. Conceptually if they lost all of their outer AA band(it's possible if rare) it would show only their middle AA range.

with this answer you lost my vote. The information you say is viable was not known what modules or captain skills a particular ship had readily available. Captain Lucifer Beelzebub had XYZ skills last known ship assignment KM 267 long range DD Atlantic Fleet. Dated 1938 .......Today is dec 1943 the KM 267 was found in shallow water off Sicily island scuttled at what seems like 2 years of decay.whereabouts of crew is  undetermined. The info you want would be IMPOSSIBLE to determine in any Battle.

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I'm normally an advocate for CVs but in this case, I'll have to disagree.

 

The CV player needs to learn the ranges, or typical AA ranges the same way guys learn to leverage main battery range advantages over specific opponents.  Or more importantly, torpedo ranges and how they specifically threaten you from ship to ship.  Even then, some ships will have different possible torpedo choices and guys have to learn and play around the dangers they present.

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Checking AA info while in loading screen already gives you major hints on the range of a ship's AA and if you have gotten reference info for the major ships you will face then it's easy to figure out the AA range.

Or just pay attention to that little voice saying your planes are under attack as well as the planes flashing and you get an idea of the AA range.

 

Part of the readinngajes like this one are fun isbecause not all data is dumbed down and handed to you, so there remains an element of thrill to the battles. Now as I pointed out above you can do a little study and get the info you want, but it will not be entirely handed to you freely without a little work on your part.

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Back when I played CVs alot during the CBT/OBT times my general rule of thumb was:

USN 7.2km - IJN 5km 

But with all the new nations there's a tiny bit more juggling now. 

USN 7.2km - RN *7.2km - KM 6.0km - IJN 5.0km

Most IJN ships will not take AFT + Module which is why 5.0km 

Most KM ships will take AFT which is why 6.0km 

USN specializes in AA protection so the chances they're rocking AFT + Module puts most ships at 7.2km 

The RN ships are *7.2km because some of the ships have DP Main Battery greater than 7.2km which is fitting since the Brits love putting *'s next to their riffles (No.3 mk.i* comes to mind). Likewise they could also be as low as 6.0km-5.0km depending if they go Module Only or AFT or none of the above. 

But, afaik, No Ships currently in the game have an AA range at or beyond 10km. So if they see your planes and you see them, there's IS a neutral zone where you're able to skirt the Air Defence grid and get to your target. 

So if you want to be cautious with your planes, Never be closer than 10km of a BB or CACL.

As for DF / DFA, just be aware of Nation Types. For DDs the only ships with access are the USN and VMF (?) Russians. For Cruisers, the KM probably will elect to use Hydro since it's their speciality, USN and VMF will most likely have it (they've access to Radar for anti-DD), IJN is a coin flip, the RN have no access BUT if equipped with MFCAA they're quite powerful, other lines I'm not we'll versed with. 

The #1 thing to check is if a CACL is Divisioned with a CV. If they are remember that name; they're the most likely to be running an AA build. 

TL;DR

-Check if CACLs are div'ed with the CV. 

-10km is the safest spotting range. 

-If you want to skirt the AA stay outside of 7.2 unless it's a Minotaur or Neptune.

-USN and VMF are most likely also running DF. 

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No because it would tell any CV player if one ship is built for AA or not.

 

Play some cruiser and learn their AA range or watch YT vids

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No other ship type gets to see this type of information on anyone else.  BBs do not get to see DDs' torp ranges.  DDs do not get to see BBs' secondary ranges.  Yet they all seem to manage well enough.  In all cases people either learn or they keep dying the same way over and over. 

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58 minutes ago, MasterDiggs said:

No other ship type gets to see this type of information on anyone else.  BBs do not get to see DDs' torp ranges.  DDs do not get to see BBs' secondary ranges.  Yet they all seem to manage well enough.  In all cases people either learn or they keep dying the same way over and over. 

To be fair surface ships can see the range to enemy ships. The cv interface gives you no indication how far the squadrons are from opposing ships. 

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10 hours ago, bassmasta76 said:

I like the idea of seeing a bar decrease as your planes take damage, not unlike the ship HP bar.  I don't see how that would dumb things down any.

B

Unfortunately thats not how planes or AA works. Planes don't actually take damage and AA doesn't actually fire shots. Yes I know,  all those tracers,  but those are just a visual.  AA works in an aura or bubble around the ship and any planes that enter into that aura have a chance to be showt down based on the ships AA rating versus the planes durability rating.  In that particular aura.  Because most ships have three layers of AA,  long range,  mid range,  and short range.  And that AA is spread out around all the squadrons in the AA's range unless you manually target a squadron,  in which case that squad has a 20% additional chance to be shot down.  Course if you only have a 1% chance to shoot down a plane then having a 1.2% chance isn't going to mean much...

Anyway,  long story short is that planes don't take damage,  they are either dead or they aren't and we already have an indicator for the number of planes in a squadron.

Obligatory 'rework AA' comment goes here.

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7 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

To be fair surface ships can see the range to enemy ships. The cv interface gives you no indication how far the squadrons are from opposing ships. 

True. It would be quite helpful if each ship a CV can see had the range to its closest set of planes listed on it in the same fashion that surface ships see it. A CV seeing the distance between its target and its planes is the same difference as any other ship type seeing their distance to the ships that they can see.

Not the AA bubble ranges though. That would be a massive advantage with no trade off.

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I think a better option for everyone involved is the ability to see how far away your planes are from a specific ship.  This way no free info is given to the CV player, he still has to memorize the AA ranges.  It also does not give away any sort of build info or show if AA is turned off.  To test that you still have to send your planes in.

18 minutes ago, MasterDiggs said:

True. It would be quite helpful if each ship a CV can see had the range to its closest set of planes listed on it in the same fashion that surface ships see it. A CV seeing the distance between its target and its planes is the same difference as any other ship type seeing their distance to the ships that they can see.

Not the AA bubble ranges though. That would be a massive advantage with no trade off.

Derp, someone just suggested it :fish_glass:

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Doesn't the game list how far your ship is from the enemy? Likewise how far your planes are from your ship? At least that's what I remember. 

Sure math is required, but if you use 10km as your safe zone, you just need to look at the "Tens column" and see if your Planes are +/-1 digit. And your relatively golden for distances.

I'm sure there's some outliers where the "rough and quick" math for calculating distances do not work as cleanly. But until a fix or tweak is applied this should work in the interim. 

Edited by Ivlerlin

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15 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Checking AA info while in loading screen already gives you major hints on the range of a ship's AA and if you have gotten reference info for the major ships you will face then it's easy to figure out the AA range.

Or just pay attention to that little voice saying your planes are under attack as well as the planes flashing and you get an idea of the AA range.

 

Part of the readinngajes like this one are fun isbecause not all data is dumbed down and handed to you, so there remains an element of thrill to the battles. Now as I pointed out above you can do a little study and get the info you want, but it will not be entirely handed to you freely without a little work on your part.

I literally talked about all of this, and I do it sometimes if I'm feeling particularly dedicated. But it's not fun, it's tedium.

 

This is not an element of thrill. There is nothing thrilling about noting down the AA ratings so that you can figure out what the captain skills are. There is nothing thrilling about mousing over all the suspect AA ships to figure out who is running an AA build captain. This is bookkeeping.

13 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

No because it would tell any CV player if one ship is built for AA or not.

 

Play some cruiser and learn their AA range or watch YT vids

I know the AA range of the cruisers/BB/DD whatever. I can tell which ones are built for AA. It's still a poor mechanic that carriers don't need, because carriers already have way too many and too powerful skill mechanics. 

15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'm normally an advocate for CVs but in this case, I'll have to disagree.

 

The CV player needs to learn the ranges, or typical AA ranges the same way guys learn to leverage main battery range advantages over specific opponents.  Or more importantly, torpedo ranges and how they specifically threaten you from ship to ship.  Even then, some ships will have different possible torpedo choices and guys have to learn and play around the dangers they present.

Reducing the CV skill gap means eliminating skill mechanics like this. It's this or eliminating or reducing the effect of fighter strafes/spotting/manual attacks. Target selection is the other big one, but there's not really a mechanical way to change that, and doing so would eliminate something that is in general pretty core to WoWS gameplay. I see a lot of CV that feed planes into AA ships either from the perspective of that AA ship(few people know about all the 5.2km AA ships), or from the perspective of the other CV taking advantage of it for a fighter combat. These are newer players who get dunked on because they don't know the details of all the ships as they move up tiers, and I suspect that this and things like it that punish new CV players is why CV population is so low at high tiers.

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