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AOT_Jaeger2

Looking for some contructive criticism....

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Hey Guys! So I got my first two Tier IV ships (Well, literally just got the Itzyaslav, haven't even played it yet) and I like the Svietlana. But my performance in battle has been...spotty at best. While I really want to like the Svietlana, I have trouble figuring out how to play it. It has a lot of guns, but limited range. The powerful torpedo armament and short range would lead me to believe its a bit of a Cruiser/Destroyer hybrid, but that playstyle has its own risks. As for DDs...its feast or famine. I tend to die early (well, I also do in the Svietlana) and I either do a large amount, or none at all. I've got two replays here, one from each ship. I'm wondering if anyone could watch them, note what I do, and give me some criticisms/pointers on what to change? I'm having trouble figuring out what to do and what not to do.

 

First, a disaster of a game in the Svietlana: https://replayswows.com/replay/16381#stats

What am I doing wrong in this ship? I just...find myself in horrible situations. I know pushing up aggressively in a not so maneuverable cruiser is a bad idea, but the bad range on the guns leads me to think I have to. I also find I get tunnel-visioned by BBs a lot, way more than any other ship.

 

Then the Derski: https://replayswows.com/replay/16383#stats

This was the battle that unlocked my Itzyaslav. It was a decent game, but I died early. This seems to be my main problem in the Derski; I die way too early to have a long term impact. This was one of the games that I actually did a large amount of damage. But...I don't know why? I think its mainly the short torpedo range on this ship that forces me to get too close and be too aggressive, but I'm not sure.

I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you guys have, advice and the like. Kind of excited about the upgraded Itzyaslav, I can finally get a whopping 5km torpedo range.

Thanks in Advance,

AOT_Jaeger2 :cap_rambo:

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First, a disaster of a game in the Svietlana: https://replayswows.com/replay/16381#stats

What am I doing wrong in this ship? I just...find myself in horrible situations. I know pushing up aggressively in a not so maneuverable cruiser is a bad idea, but the bad range on the guns leads me to think I have to. I also find I get tunnel-visioned by BBs a lot, way more than any other ship.

 

Awful nasty ship buy the krasny krym its a god.

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3rd one in two weeks... this forum is getting tooooooo friendly!

 

Generally for Cruisers with torps, try to stay alive till later 1/3 of the match. When most of the enemies are dead and you can close in the distance against another cruiser or BB without getting shot in the flanked (and thus citadelled). The torps allows the cruiser to sink a BB. Despite "lawlpen" and "over match" a cruiser charging a BB bow on is not easy to kill for the BB and will most likely get into unmissable torpedo salvo range and sink the BB.

Cruisers with torps also discourages other ships engaging you up close, a situation that heavily favors BBs or cruisers with thicker armor.

Edited by NeutralState

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Russian CL's have a reputation as "Glass Cannons"; great guns but crap armor. Play accordingly.

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Took a look at the Derzki replay. I understand what you meant by dying early, but with low tier maps that have very small ranges and are clustered with islands you are supposed to use as much of the islands as possible to lay ambushes. At first you could sit in your smoke for a bit and shoot the phoenix, and always remember to slow down a bit before popping the smoke. Now regarding Izyaslav and in general the rest of the VMF DD line, from tier 5 especially you get a big shift when it comes to gameplay. With the exception of Gnevny at tier 6 and Ognevoi at tier 8 you will have the fastest ships in the game with mediocre detection ranges and short ranged torpedoes but superior guns. Think small light cruisers that can go 42+ knots and just keep at range harassing their opponents. For now you can try abusing islands that cover in order to fire at enemies with the Izyaslav and pull the occasional ambush at anyone who gets too close. Thats my 2 cents anyway

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Svietlana is quite a usable ship.  Pushing in with the express intent of torping something is not the way to go.  Those torps are generally more of an accessory if you catch something in the right situation, often in the late game as the earlier poster said.

Map awareness is the biggest thing, and watching your own team.  Your own guys can get you killed often better than the enemy can through general lack of support.  The gun range is adequate so start by working within it.  Stay in company with other ships, try to shoot from max range, never give broadside to a BB while learning unless he's the only one and you are constantly watching his guns.  Always run priority target so you know when your ship is being targeted.  When you come under focus fire from range turn away, hold right mouse button down and watch the incoming fire, dodging as much of it as possible until it stops or you go into concealment.

Just take it easy at first until performance improves.  You don't have to top the scoreboard just stay alive and focus those destroyers whenever they are sighted.  And don't forget your hydro as it can not only help you but those near you as well.  It is a powerful tool.

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Torpedoes on most cruisers are best described as either useless (so forget they exist) or last-ditch weapons.

The Svietlana isn't all that bad in my experience. I kind of liked the old girl. She's kind of good at spamming HE and setting fires, but be sure to switch to AP if you have a broadside enemy cruiser nearby.

As with pretty much the entire Soviet cruiser line, though, you're better suited to supporting the charge than leading it. You just don't have the armor to block, bounce or sustain incoming fire.

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I've been summoned!

 

OP, would you like me to do a video critique of one/both of those replays?  If so, just LMK...  I'm low on replays right now so should be able to do one or both of them :)

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With destroyers it's not a dissimilar concept, ie there is more to it than simply charging straight in looking for a kill.  One of the DDs most important roles is simply spotting for your team.  The ability to be invisible is the strongest tool in the game.

Start by getting into a cap where there is team support behind you.  Push in only far enough to get turned around.  This way you are capping, spotting, and are ready to run and smoke your retreat and possibly teammates as needed.  This is especially important at the start of the match.  Banzai hero DD = blowed up DD and puts the team at an immediate disadvantage.  Do not let yourself be killed early, ever.  Always be mindful of your detectability, the composition of the enemy team, and what the map shows in regard to their position.  Your guns are good, use them on DDs as often and as much as possible without being focused down.

As with Svietlana, start simple, cap, spot and work your concealment.  It takes time before the stuff that makes you good kicks in.  Always watch the map, always watch for incoming fire.

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5 hours ago, AOT_Jaeger2 said:

Then the Derski: https://replayswows.com/replay/16383#stats

This was the battle that unlocked my Itzyaslav. It was a decent game, but I died early. This seems to be my main problem in the Derski; I die way too early to have a long term impact. This was one of the games that I actually did a large amount of damage. But...I don't know why? I think its mainly the short torpedo range on this ship that forces me to get too close and be too aggressive, but I'm not sure.

I don't think I'm nearly good enough in cruisers to be giving advice, but when it comes to destroyers...

  • Right from the beginning: use premium consumables.  While in port, click on your smoke under the "Modules" tab, and you'll see the option to equip Smoke II...if you click where it shows the cost in doubloons it will offer you the option of purchasing the module using regular credits.  Do this, at least for the smoke (speed boost & damage control are also very helpful, but the costs for all three can be pretty high relative to your tier).
  • Even when there are no carriers in the game, it is generally advisable to turn your anti-aircraft guns off (press the P key while in-game).  It doesn't really matter with the Derzki because her AA range is so small (and apologies if you'd left them on intentionally because of this), but on other destroyers your AA can cause you to be spotted by aircraft which wouldn't otherwise have seen you.  If get spotted by a plane anyway, you can always turn it back on (with P again).
  • I really dislike your initial path right into the center of the map.  If When you get spotted there you open yourself up to fire from nearly every direction, and any route you try to use to escape leaves you exposed to at least some shots.  Plus with the way your team is positioned, the islands will make it extremely difficult for them to shoot at anything you spot.
  • At 17:15, the smoke you dropped is now between you and the Omaha, while the islands are blocking line-of-sight to every other known enemy ship.  You should be using your guns against the Omaha as long as he remains spotted (and angling toward his position while slowing, as he almost certainly dropped torpedoes into your smoke).
  • 16:30 - there ya go!
  • Regarding your big attack...you can see the smoke cloud pumping out HE rounds as you approach, which means that there is definitely an enemy destroyer in there.  Coupled with the Omaha reversing, a much safer play would've been to stick closer to that island so that it could shield you from the other ships while turning the fight into a 1v1 against the cruiser; creep forward until you have an angle for your torps, and then creep backward to remain in cover.  Those battleships are caught in a sandwich between you and the friendlies to the south, so they aren't going anywhere just yet...once you have your smoke available again, then you can push out to do your damage.   Given that you opted to charge then instead, using your speed boost was absolutely the right thing to do, and you actually did a pretty admirable job of dividing your attention between torpedo attacks on the battleships and guns against the DD (not a lot of low-tier DD players can do this effectively).

There are two ways to play the Derzki (or any of the low-tier Soviet DDs, really): what you did here, which leads to a quick but generally glorious death at these tiers, or hanging back with the main body of your fleet and using a combination of your small size and high speed to harass enemy ships with HE from long range.  As you get higher in the tiers and your opponents get better (and battleship secondaries get much better), you need to move more toward the latter option with the gunboat DDs.  In this case you definitely got your ship's worth and benefited the team, but just as often you're going to be gunned down before you can do that kind of massive damage against the BBs; play these ships more like small cruisers, while only going to your torpedoes when the opportunity forms naturally.

Still, it's hard to argue with 51k and 2 kills in a tier III destroyer! :Smile_honoring:

Edited by Harv72b

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So I sat down and watched both replays, I'm going to list the things I noticed in both of them and then go from there.

Svietlana:

  • Good work citadeling the Phoenix although the aim was a bit rough at times. Wouldn't worry too much as that just comes with practice.
  • Situational awareness needs improving as it appears you were tunnel visioned on that Phoenix (and then the Tenryu) which led too:
    • Driving through a friendly smoke which would've screened you from planes and any of those BBs looking to slap you.
    • Potentially setting yourself up for getting dropped by the CV which while it didn't happen that time will not always hold true.
    • Causing you to turn inside the island towards the entire enemy fleet on the left flank.
    • Completely ignoring the DD 5-6km away to your NE that was basically a free kill.
  • As an extension to the prior point, you still had a chance to extend your lifetime is you had turned left to shield yourself with the island instead of right. Again, I don't know your exact state of mind at that moment but it appears to me that you really wanted to shoot that South Carolina at the cost of your life.

Final thoughts: This appears to be more or less a case of a chain of bad decisions leading to your untimely demise. Driving through the smoke put you in the sights of the BBs, tunnel-vision on the Phoenix made you turn towards the enemy setting you up to get slapped and losing your engine, and continued tunneling on the BB made you beach leading to getting dropped. The game would've turned out entirely different if at the first juncture (turning left or right around the island) you turned right. It would've set you up to slap a DD around and then kite the SC coming from south to north. I know that the Svietlana is fairly stubby in the range department but kiting (and knowing when to kite) is a very critical skill to start developing, especially if you are going up the RU CA/CL line. The next boat in the line is the Kirov which has longer range and bigger guns, but is extremely fragile and will not survive close range brawls (especially with BBs).

 

Derzki:

  • Slap premium smoke on there at the very least. At 22,500 credits a pop it is worth its weight in gold not only for the extra smoke cloud but for the reduced cooldown. It is your "get out of jail free*" card and pays itself off easily over the long run.
  • It appears you were trying to screen the enemy with your smoke. You actually popped it before you even saw anyone which I would advise against because if that phoenix hadn't have been coming down that route it would've been completely wasted.
  • Adding on to the prior point, smoke works both ways. If the phoenix had pushed down south instead of breaking off you would have never seen him coming.
  • Dumping torpedoes at ships outside your torpedo range. Naughty Naughty.
  • I know that your route ended up working out in the end but I want you to realize just how lucky it was:
    • Phoenix decides to just sit there next to the island. If he had ever bothered to accelerate you would've never killed him and he would've pummeled you
    • The Friant was AFK in spawn and even if you see he's AFK all it takes is for him to come back and you would've died even faster.
    • The Wyoming not learning his lesson after the first torpedo set.
    • Stationary DD being a goober.
  • A better route to have taken was after you doubled back (timestamp: 16:20) into the smoke, use the island you were facing to mask your approach and then swing out left dumping torpedoes along the way. It would've put you at point blank range of the Wyoming to dunk him with torpedoes, screened you from the Phoenix, and then set you up to run down the Myogi  trapped in the corner right afterwards. You could've even just lopped back and then gone your original route minus one Wyoming that ends up killing you.

Final Thoughts: This is an example of success being achieved against all odds. If the Phoenix wasn't blind and the Friant wasn't afk your game would've ended with much less success. The low tier Russian DDs like the Derzki and the Izlaslav for most people tend to play like ambush DDs with their short range torpedoes, high speeds, and compressed engagement ranges which ignores the primary playstyle of the RU DDs at higher tiers which is long range gunboat harassers due to their flat arcs, high fire chance, and high concealment. While bum rushing people may work at lower tiers you'll find that the higher you go the less it does due to a general increase in player competency, accuracy, and general ship performance. So something to start working on is being that harasser spamming shells from longer ranges while mashing the rudder and throttle. Lastly your captain build will change depending on whether you plan on getting the Khabarosvk or the Grozovoi as the former plays like an undersized light cruiser and the latter plays more like a conventional DD.

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1 hour ago, Harv72b said:

I don't think I'm nearly good enough in cruisers to be giving advice, but when it comes to destroyers...

  • Right from the beginning: use premium consumables.  While in port, click on your smoke under the "Modules" tab, and you'll see the option to equip Smoke II...if you click where it shows the cost in doubloons it will offer you the option of purchasing the module using regular credits.  Do this, at least for the smoke (speed boost & damage control are also very helpful, but the costs for all three can be pretty high relative to your tier).
  • Even when there are no carriers in the game, it is generally advisable to turn your anti-aircraft guns off (press the P key while in-game).  It doesn't really matter with the Derzki because her AA range is so small (and apologies if you'd left them on intentionally because of this), but on other destroyers your AA can cause you to be spotted by aircraft which wouldn't otherwise have seen you.  If get spotted by a plane anyway, you can always turn it back on (with P again).
  • I really dislike your initial path right into the center of the map.  If When you get spotted there you open yourself up to fire from nearly every direction, and any route you try to use to escape leaves you exposed to at least some shots.  Plus with the way your team is positioned, the islands will make it extremely difficult for them to shoot at anything you spot.
  • At 17:15, the smoke you dropped is now between you and the Omaha, while the islands are blocking line-of-sight to every other known enemy ship.  You should be using your guns against the Omaha as long as he remains spotted (and angling toward his position while slowing, as he almost certainly dropped torpedoes into your smoke).
  • 16:30 - there ya go!
  • Regarding your big attack...you can see the smoke cloud pumping out HE rounds as you approach, which means that there is definitely an enemy destroyer in there.  Coupled with the Omaha reversing, a much safer play would've been to stick closer to that island so that it could shield you from the other ships while turning the fight into a 1v1 against the cruiser; creep forward until you have an angle for your torps, and then creep backward to remain in cover.  Those battleships are caught in a sandwich between you and the friendlies to the south, so they aren't going anywhere just yet...once you have your smoke available again, then you can push out to do your damage.   Given that you opted to charge then instead, using your speed boost was absolutely the right thing to do, and you actually did a pretty admirable job of dividing your attention between torpedo attacks on the battleships and guns against the DD (not a lot of low-tier DD players can do this effectively).

There are two ways to play the Derzki (or any of the low-tier Soviet DDs, really): what you did here, which leads to a quick but generally glorious death at these tiers, or hanging back with the main body of your fleet and using a combination of your small size and high speed to harass enemy ships with HE from long range.  As you get higher in the tiers and your opponents get better (and battleship secondaries get much better), you need to move more toward the latter option with the gunboat DDs.  In this case you definitely got your ship's worth and benefited the team, but just as often you're going to be gunned down before you can do that kind of massive damage against the BBs; play these ships more like small cruisers, while only going to your torpedoes when the opportunity forms naturally.

Still, it's hard to argue with 51k and 2 kills in a tier III destroyer! :Smile_honoring:

 

35 minutes ago, theavenger24 said:

So I sat down and watched both replays, I'm going to list the things I noticed in both of them and then go from there.

Svietlana:

  • Good work citadeling the Phoenix although the aim was a bit rough at times. Wouldn't worry too much as that just comes with practice.
  • Situational awareness needs improving as it appears you were tunnel visioned on that Phoenix (and then the Tenryu) which led too:
    • Driving through a friendly smoke which would've screened you from planes and any of those BBs looking to slap you.
    • Potentially setting yourself up for getting dropped by the CV which while it didn't happen that time will not always hold true.
    • Causing you to turn inside the island towards the entire enemy fleet on the left flank.
    • Completely ignoring the DD 5-6km away to your NE that was basically a free kill.
  • As an extension to the prior point, you still had a chance to extend your lifetime is you had turned left to shield yourself with the island instead of right. Again, I don't know your exact state of mind at that moment but it appears to me that you really wanted to shoot that South Carolina at the cost of your life.

Final thoughts: This appears to be more or less a case of a chain of bad decisions leading to your untimely demise. Driving through the smoke put you in the sights of the BBs, tunnel-vision on the Phoenix made you turn towards the enemy setting you up to get slapped and losing your engine, and continued tunneling on the BB made you beach leading to getting dropped. The game would've turned out entirely different if at the first juncture (turning left or right around the island) you turned right. It would've set you up to slap a DD around and then kite the SC coming from south to north. I know that the Svietlana is fairly stubby in the range department but kiting (and knowing when to kite) is a very critical skill to start developing, especially if you are going up the RU CA/CL line. The next boat in the line is the Kirov which has longer range and bigger guns, but is extremely fragile and will not survive close range brawls (especially with BBs).

 

Derzki:

  • Slap premium smoke on there at the very least. At 22,500 credits a pop it is worth its weight in gold not only for the extra smoke cloud but for the reduced cooldown. It is your "get out of jail free*" card and pays itself off easily over the long run.
  • It appears you were trying to screen the enemy with your smoke. You actually popped it before you even saw anyone which I would advise against because if that phoenix hadn't have been coming down that route it would've been completely wasted.
  • Adding on to the prior point, smoke works both ways. If the phoenix had pushed down south instead of breaking off you would have never seen him coming.
  • Dumping torpedoes at ships outside your torpedo range. Naughty Naughty.
  • I know that your route ended up working out in the end but I want you to realize just how lucky it was:
    • Phoenix decides to just sit there next to the island. If he had ever bothered to accelerate you would've never killed him and he would've pummeled you
    • The Friant was AFK in spawn and even if you see he's AFK all it takes is for him to come back and you would've died even faster.
    • The Wyoming not learning his lesson after the first torpedo set.
    • Stationary DD being a goober.
  • A better route to have taken was after you doubled back (timestamp: 16:20) into the smoke, use the island you were facing to mask your approach and then swing out left dumping torpedoes along the way. It would've put you at point blank range of the Wyoming to dunk him with torpedoes, screened you from the Phoenix, and then set you up to run down the Myogi  trapped in the corner right afterwards. You could've even just lopped back and then gone your original route minus one Wyoming that ends up killing you.

Final Thoughts: This is an example of success being achieved against all odds. If the Phoenix wasn't blind and the Friant wasn't afk your game would've ended with much less success. The low tier Russian DDs like the Derzki and the Izlaslav for most people tend to play like ambush DDs with their short range torpedoes, high speeds, and compressed engagement ranges which ignores the primary playstyle of the RU DDs at higher tiers which is long range gunboat harassers due to their flat arcs, high fire chance, and high concealment. While bum rushing people may work at lower tiers you'll find that the higher you go the less it does due to a general increase in player competency, accuracy, and general ship performance. So something to start working on is being that harasser spamming shells from longer ranges while mashing the rudder and throttle. Lastly your captain build will change depending on whether you plan on getting the Khabarosvk or the Grozovoi as the former plays like an undersized light cruiser and the latter plays more like a conventional DD.

 

2 hours ago, BullHalsey said:

With destroyers it's not a dissimilar concept, ie there is more to it than simply charging straight in looking for a kill.  One of the DDs most important roles is simply spotting for your team.  The ability to be invisible is the strongest tool in the game.

Start by getting into a cap where there is team support behind you.  Push in only far enough to get turned around.  This way you are capping, spotting, and are ready to run and smoke your retreat and possibly teammates as needed.  This is especially important at the start of the match.  Banzai hero DD = blowed up DD and puts the team at an immediate disadvantage.  Do not let yourself be killed early, ever.  Always be mindful of your detectability, the composition of the enemy team, and what the map shows in regard to their position.  Your guns are good, use them on DDs as often and as much as possible without being focused down.

As with Svietlana, start simple, cap, spot and work your concealment.  It takes time before the stuff that makes you good kicks in.  Always watch the map, always watch for incoming fire.

 

2 hours ago, Lord_Zath said:

I've been summoned!

 

OP, would you like me to do a video critique of one/both of those replays?  If so, just LMK...  I'm low on replays right now so should be able to do one or both of them :)

All very much appreciated. Admittedly, the Derski replay was me being an utter moron and getting away with it. I kind of made one bad mistake (overshot the island without paying attention when coming around behind the Phoenix) and then continued to make more mistakes as a result. I overused torpedoes on the Phoenix that could have maybe killed the Wyoming, and I should have just gotten out of there. Moreover, I shouldn't have gone there in the first place, at least not that quickly. 

As for the Svietlana, I found I started doing better playing the complete wrong way- as a big gunboat destroyer. I tried to find isolated enemies, then charged them while angling and spamming HE until I got within torpedo range. Ironically, it worked out well most of the time. I have since gotten the Kirov, and even though I probably shouldn't be at Tier V yet, I like the Kirov a lot more. The longer range and more reliable guns make it a lot more comfortable to play as a support ship. Moreover, the guns offer a lot more firepower, and the AP ammo seems to work wonders in the right situation.

In conclusion, I'm going to stop at Tier V with any lines I play and learn the game there. The Kirov seems to be more like a conventional cruiser, and should be good for learning. Not so sure about the Podvoisky, but I have a lot of time to play through the Itzya before I get to it. Thanks for all the advice, and it truly helped!

 

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