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MandoWarrior1

German BB's

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Looking at specifically the tier 7((Due to the sweet spot)) and tier 10.

 

 

How are they? I have enough free EXP to get the tier 9... but I wanna get a bit more exp to get the tier 10 off the back.

 

So, tier 7 and tier 10. How do thbey perform in comparison to the other BB's or is it just a waste of my time to go for them?

 

I own the Yamato.

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Hey

I enjoy the German BB's and T7 are every good although dispersion is a problem.  Gneisenau is a very good boat and would be great if it had better guns, Scharnhorst is very fun to play and it a great cruiser killer and can do ok with bigger BB's if played well.  I never had the T10 but the FDG at T9 sucked badly even when fully upgraded and I sold it and used the coin to get the T10 cruiser Hindenburg.   For the Germans, T7 is very good, T8 is also very good, T9 sucked for me, T10 no experience with it.

 

Pete

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2 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I enjoy the German BB's and T7 are every good although dispersion is a problem.  Gneisenau is a very good boat and would be great if it had better guns, Scharnhorst is very fun to play and it a great cruiser killer and can do ok with bigger BB's if played well.  I never had the T10 but the FDG at T9 sucked badly even when fully upgraded and I sold it and used the coin to get the T10 cruiser Hindenburg.   For the Germans, T7 is very good, T8 is also very good, T9 sucked for me, T10 no experience with it.

 

Pete

Sadly, I didn't purchase the Scharnhortz. I didn't know if I wanted it or not. 

 

As for the tier 7... dispersion is a problem for them? So... they aren't very accurate?

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Gneisenau & GK.

 

Let's take care of GK first at Tier X, she's easy.  She has typical wonky German dispersion but the catch is she has 12 guns to make up for it.  Still, she's not a consistent gunner at range compared to Iowa, Missouri, Montana, Yamato, Musashi.  She's huge, she sails like a pig (all Tier X BBs sail like pigs).  But there are two things that are endearing with GK.

1.  She's TOUGH.

2.  Mega Secondaries.  With proper secondaries build + signal flag, she reaches out to 11.6km.

 

Making a Secondaries Build GK work in a High Tier Meta that's all about long range is difficult at first but you need to be patient.  Be patient, don't YOLO, don't take crazy stupid damage early on.  Fight, but don't be stupid and throw away the ship.  Read the map and battle situation and when it's time for the team to push (you can tell), GK is THE BB to do it with.  She can take a battering and when she's pushing, has a DD screen, her secondaries roaring, 406 / 420mm guns firing, that is GK at her best.  No other BB has that push capability and capacity to withstand punishment.

 

GK is not a plinker.  Do IJN, USN, RN BBs for that.  GK is the instrument of decision, when it's time to push.  Then that instrument transforms into a German Warhammer.

===

Gneisenau?  She's a very polarizing ship.  There are players that love her.  Her ability in a brawl situation at Tier VII is amazing.  However, she is terribly inconsistent at medium and long ranges.  With German BB dispersion, 6 rifles only, and people naturally taking Secondaries Build, i.e. no ASM1 to improve dispersion, her guns will let you down with more range.  This is where people that hate Gneisenau are justified.

Good:

+ Very fast, maneuverable for a BB.

+ Strong Secondary Battery, tied with Scharnhorst as best in tier.

+ Guns are strong in a short range fight.

+ Very respectable AA even if doing the typical Secondaries Build, far better than Scharnhorst.  If you're an oddball and do an AA spec, she will devour planes easily and become a better AA Boat than Atlanta.

+ Torpedoes

+ Very strong in a knife fight, brawl setting.

Cons:

- Like other Tier VII BBs, 16" guns can pen your bow.

- 6 rifles is too low, any shells that miss per salvo is a massive loss of possible damage.

- Guns are very inconsistent.

 

To alleviate Gneisenau's flaws in her guns, you simply have to get closer.  If you like trading shells at 15km+, Gneisenau will fail you spectacularly.  But in a short ranged fight, that dispersion becomes a non-issue.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Cool 2

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3 minutes ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

As for the tier 7... dispersion is a problem for them? So... they aren't very accurate?

Nope. And they have less guns than competitors, so it feels even worse.

That's why they're covered in secondary guns and have turtleback armour, to get you to push.

Oh, and Gneisenau has murderous long range AA.

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1 minute ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

Sadly, I didn't purchase the Scharnhortz. I didn't know if I wanted it or not. 

 

As for the tier 7... dispersion is a problem for them? So... they aren't very accurate?

Hey

The problem with accuracy is that they are not very good at range; they are acceptable from middle range to close up brawling.  There are few better ships for close in gun duels than a German BB.  You just have to work around that fact.  At T7, Gneisenau is fast, only 6 guns with questionable accuracy but they hit hard when they hit, 2nd best AA when taken with BFT and AFT, and they have 6km torps as well.  Scharnhorst is also an excellent T7 ship with smaller guns but reload in 20 sec. versus 30 sec in Gneisenau.  They also have some of the best turret rotation speed and the best ship handling of all nations.  The biggest downside is that well know dispersion.  Otherwise very good ships.

 

Pete

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1 minute ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

Oh so Germans have problems hitting their marks?

 

 

Famously so in the game.  WG designed German BBs as brawlers, the closer the better.  Bismarck having to trade shots with Amagi at 15km+ is a disaster waiting to happen for the German BB.

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Famously so in the game.  WG designed German BBs as brawlers, the closer the better.  Bismarck having to trade shots with Amagi at 15km+ is a disaster waiting to happen for the German BB.

And we b oth know that getting close in with a BB means eating tons of torps.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Famously so in the game.  WG designed German BBs as brawlers, the closer the better.  Bismarck having to trade shots with Amagi at 15km+ is a disaster waiting to happen for the German BB.

Hey

But get Bismarck close and with her secondaries, she will roast Amagi or get Tirpitz close and Amagi could be torp'd, not to say they won't get hurt by any means but I have more issues with North Carolina than I do from Amagi's.  Maybe it's me, lol.

 

Pete

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4 minutes ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

And we b oth know that getting close in with a BB means eating tons of torps.

You have to be smart about it.  Take account of where the DDs are at, what they're doing and play with that in mind.  German BBs have to constantly look for the right opening to push.

3 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

But get Bismarck close and with her secondaries, she will roast Amagi or get Tirpitz close and Amagi could be torp'd, not to say they won't get hurt by any means but I have more issues with North Carolina than I do from Amagi's.  Maybe it's me, lol.

 

Pete

The thing I like about German BBs when I am not playing a BB is that they are the least likely of the BB lines to run away at the first sign of trouble.  It's because they stick around looking for an excuse to use the secondaries.  IJN, USN, RN BBs will bail on you quickly.  Not Ze Germans.

 

When you're a Cruiser or DD trying to hold a cap, you can see that Missouri, Iowa, Amagi already sailing away and already at 15km+.  Bismarck, GK are hanging around looking for that scenario to brawl.  To me that's far more reassuring.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You have to be smart about it.  Take account of where the DDs are at, what they're doing and play with that in mind.  German BBs have to constantly look for the right opening to push.

The thing I like about German BBs when I am not playing a BB is that they are the least likely of the BB lines to run away at the first sign of trouble.  It's because they stick around looking for an excuse to use the secondaries.  IJN, USN, RN BBs will bail on you quickly.  Not Ze Germans.

 

When you're a Cruiser or DD trying to hold a cap, you can see that Missouri, Iowa, Amagi already sailing away and already at 15km+.  Bismarck, GK are hanging around looking for that scenario to brawl.  To me that's far more reassuring.

Hey

I never like to back down from a fight even if it gets me killed; I would rather die protecting my DD, than to bail and watch him die.  Nothing is stronger late in the game than a full health DD.  I know my German BB's can tank a lot of damage.  I use a non-manual secondary on Bismarck but full secondary build on my Tirpitz, Up close my main guns do good damage too.  Bismarck hydro is also handy for DD assistance, Tirpitz, well gets torps.

 

Pete

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Best BB line in the game along with the IJN, and both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Bismarck with enhanced secondary build and a 19-pt captain is my most played ship.

Grosse Kurfürst is a monster tier X.

Both German and IJN both have superb high tier CAs as well.

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1 hour ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

Oh so Germans have problems hitting their marks?

 

 

Only if played wrong, which, given the current meta, many do. To be honest, unless you brawl a lot, having a Yamato means about as much as the colour of your house in a storm.

German BB's were built as brawlers - these are meant to get up in the enemy ships face and unleash at close range with the main batteries and secondaries (torps too, if the ship has them and they are still intact by that point). Hence, trying to snipe, like most IJN ships and some USN ones do, at 15 km, yeah, your gonna miss, especially in Gnei. But, your bread and butter is 2 things - getting close, and picking on cruisers/dd's. Tier 7 , with Gnei, it's classed a BB, but it plays as a battle cruiser. Top tier, you can bully the other BB's and play more as a BB would, again, keep in mind it's still more a brawler. However, bottom tier, you want to play it as a super heavy cruiser. Keep a bit more range, but not excessive range, but, unless your a madman like me, usually want to avoid the head on fights with Iowa unless your blitzing them from the other side of an island. Bismarck is a little more BB like, but can be kinda the same as Gnei when out tiered, albeit, even better secondary range (max over 11 km).

Gnei and Bis - these are commerce raiders, they basically shred cruisers and DD's that get in secondary range, and with the heavy cannons. But, a bit undergunned against other BB's that tier and higher though, they can still fight them.

Freddy - partially depends what gun you use but overall it's a bit of a hybrid of the "Commerce raider" ships like Gnei and Bis and the true BB's from tiers 3-6. 

GK - this seems more like back to true BB form - just with secondaries that will melt cruisers and DD's that stray too close.

German BB's, whatever ship is closest to you is the target you shoot. Cruisers tend to be the easy money, BB's you may have to use HE, even some cruisers as well (AP will overpen Leander's citadel at close range), obviously, you wanna take out DD's so they can't torp you. and the caliber/4 HE can be very useful, again, against BB's and those cruisers with thinner armour. If you feel you can fight other BB's, go for it, you should damage them when you can, but Gnei, it prefers smaller, easier prey. Same to an extent with Bis. Especially with matches your lower tier - let the other BB's duke it out and maybe help a bit, kill the enemy cruisers and DD's. Once the BB's support is gone, then focus them down more with your team. 

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The nice thing about the KM BBs is that there's nothing wrong with partially setting the ships up for Main Battery. 

Although there is a slight order to the mitigation for a Pseudo-Secondary/MB build. 

Such as how you simultaneously level your CMDR and Module your ship. 

10pt CMDR - AFT + SBM2 + SBM3

14pt CMDR - MFCSB + AFT + ASM1 + MB Range or RoF

Basically until you can afford MFCSB for your CMDR combined with AFT you want all the range you can get before you mitigate MB with ASM1. ASM1 has a minor buff to secondaries. 

Your a KM BB, they'll be trying to stay away from you as much as possible. So buffing the MB once your ship is capable of sustainable damage via the dispersion buff of MFCSB and the range boosts of AFT and ASM1 makes your ship essentially the range of tier contemporaries. The -15% range difference between ASM1 and SBM2 is partially made up from the KM's innate increased secondary range. 

Sure when matched against a sister ship that's Maxed SB build you're losing out on SB ranges BUT your MB have increased potential of dealing damage before you both pummel eachother at ~6.5km ranges. 

Anyway food for thought if the idea of sub-par Main Battery has you questioning pushing down the line. 

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42 minutes ago, Ivlerlin said:

The nice thing about the KM BBs is that there's nothing wrong with partially setting the ships up for Main Battery. 

Although there is a slight order to the mitigation for a Pseudo-Secondary/MB build. 

Such as how you simultaneously level your CMDR and Module your ship. 

10pt CMDR - AFT + SBM2 + SBM3

14pt CMDR - MFCSB + AFT + ASM1 + MB Range or RoF

Basically until you can afford MFCSB for your CMDR combined with AFT you want all the range you can get before you mitigate MB with ASM1. ASM1 has a minor buff to secondaries. 

Your a KM BB, they'll be trying to stay away from you as much as possible. So buffing the MB once your ship is capable of sustainable damage via the dispersion buff of MFCSB and the range boosts of AFT and ASM1 makes your ship essentially the range of tier contemporaries. The -15% range difference between ASM1 and SBM2 is partially made up from the KM's innate increased secondary range. 

Sure when matched against a sister ship that's Maxed SB build you're losing out on SB ranges BUT your MB have increased potential of dealing damage before you both pummel eachother at ~6.5km ranges. 

Anyway food for thought if the idea of sub-par Main Battery has you questioning pushing down the line. 

 

This.

As great as KM secondaries can be, their usefulness is situational and in most matches the vast majority of your damage totals are still coming from your main batteries.

IMO first priority is to make sure your main battery is as potent as possible, then work on secondaries - they can still be effective without a maxed build.

...

 

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Frankly, the one ship in the KM BB line that is terrible is the FDG.

It's basically the Bismark, in a 20% longer hull and 20% more HP.  But the T9 matchmaking means it constantly sees ships that just chunk-chunk-chunk at that HP pool, and really stay out of it's secondary range.  You pretty much are forced to take Fire Prevention as the L4 skill, just so you don't roast to death in 5 minutes.  Because you're such a massive target, that even a Mr Magoo at the enemy fire control can hit you.  I find that I'm hard-pressed to get 5k in damage per salvo at stuff that won't close, and in return, I take 50% more damage.

The FDG simply is too big a target with too little reliable DPM to counter the fact that EVERYTHING pens it all over the place. Sure, not many citadels, but when you get hit with 6 pens from an Iowa every salvo, that's soft comfort since you're hard-pressed to get 1 pen in return.

Other than that, I do love me my Gnei and Scharn, and the Bismark is pretty good, too.  I haven't quite played the GFK enough to evaluate it, though the extra guns really make it much better than the FDG.

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Hey

The biggest issue with the German BB's is the power creep that has taken place; the entire line needs about a 10-15% reduction in the dispersion in order to be completely relevant anymore.  It's almost like lets hinder the only aggressive BB ships in the game, and promote instead BB spamming HE and sniping from range/camping.  Those brawler Germans are too good because of their armour and secondaries.  At T9/10 those great German secondaries are worthless since everyone like to camp and snipe, barely getting out of spawn most of the time, good luck getting close enough to use manuals secondaries and then ships like FDG only have a 20.3km range which doesn't compete with mid-20's on everyone else, much less that dispersion again.

 

Pete

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On 2/7/2018 at 11:46 PM, EAnybody said:

Frankly, the one ship in the KM BB line that is terrible is the FDG.

It's basically the Bismark, in a 20% longer hull and 20% more HP.  But the T9 matchmaking means it constantly sees ships that just chunk-chunk-chunk at that HP pool, and really stay out of it's secondary range.  You pretty much are forced to take Fire Prevention as the L4 skill, just so you don't roast to death in 5 minutes.  Because you're such a massive target, that even a Mr Magoo at the enemy fire control can hit you.  I find that I'm hard-pressed to get 5k in damage per salvo at stuff that won't close, and in return, I take 50% more damage.

The FDG simply is too big a target with too little reliable DPM to counter the fact that EVERYTHING pens it all over the place. Sure, not many citadels, but when you get hit with 6 pens from an Iowa every salvo, that's soft comfort since you're hard-pressed to get 1 pen in return.

Other than that, I do love me my Gnei and Scharn, and the Bismark is pretty good, too.  I haven't quite played the GFK enough to evaluate it, though the extra guns really make it much better than the FDG.

You know. I hate the Gnei personally. I cant do anything with it, the dispersion even at sub 10k is just horrifying. I cant hit anything, so Im not gonna citadel anything and I wont do much damage obviously.

 

I switch to my Nagato... and right off the back, shotgun salvoed and got two citadels. I just cant STAND the Gnei. Its supposed to be able to brawl, but the guns are just not accurate enough to do it. I evne prefer my tirpitz and I cant explain why.

 

As for the FDR. I thiink ill like it better than the Gnei. Bigger guns, bigger oomph, more penetration and also more shells. 

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11 hours ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

You know. I hate the Gnei personally. I cant do anything with it, the dispersion even at sub 10k is just horrifying. I cant hit anything, so Im not gonna citadel anything and I wont do much damage obviously.

Yeah, for some people, it just doesn't work for them. I personally don't find the close-in dispersion a problem at all, but the lack of total barrels is a problem.

 

11 hours ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

I switch to my Nagato... and right off the back, shotgun salvoed and got two citadels. I just cant STAND the Gnei. Its supposed to be able to brawl, but the guns are just not accurate enough to do it. I evne prefer my tirpitz and I cant explain why.

Brawling in a Gnei is all about the good secondaries and the torpedo tubes. The guns are useful, but mostly for blasting CAs in one-shot. Against BBs, they do decent damage, but the secondaries and torps are a real terror for insta-deletion of BBs, which is why they brawl so well. It's virtually impossible to citadel a Gnei if you're angled even a tiny bit - sure, you'll eat pens, but those torps do 25k+ damage and can't be dodged at close-range, and your secondaries are excellent for chunking off 10-20k from an opponent as you close to torp range. More if you go for the full Manual Secondaries route, but even without that, it absolutely brawls better than anything else it will ever see, with the exception of the Tirpitz.

11 hours ago, MandoWarrior1 said:

As for the FDR. I thiink ill like it better than the Gnei. Bigger guns, bigger oomph, more penetration and also more shells. 

Only slightly bigger (16 vs 15 inch), only slightly more (8 vs 6), with the down sides of a MUCH bigger ship that just eats pens all over the place. For it's tier, the guns aren't very good - everything it faces has at least 9 of the same caliber or higher guns, and doesn't have to give as much broadside to use a large portion of them. The 3x3 arrangement is superior to the 4x2 one.  The FDG does seem to have a bit better dispersion, particularly if you take the anti-dispersion Aiming Systems Module. That said, you're not landing a lot of shells out beyond 15km, either.

Penetration is better on the Gnei than the FDG - it's much more often shooting at significantly lower-armored ships than the FDG, plus it actually has better velocity (820 m/s vs the 810 m/s of the FDG). The slightly smaller caliber isn't much of a factor here. It's still sufficient to penetrate virtually everything, and overmatch a lot of stuff. The FDG can't overmatch more ships, because it sees fewer down-tiers, and it can't overmatch the bow armor of most of it's peers, while the Gnei can.

It might be ok if the FDG wasn't so freaking huge - I mean, the Bismark does far better with the same guns on the Gnei in the 4x2 arrangement, but it's 20% smaller than the FDG.  It's made worse by the fact that the FDG is always fighting T10 ships, and virtually never is against T7s, which means the volume of shots coming the FDG's way is FAR higher than against the Bismark or Gnei. And on such a huge target, they can't miss.  I mean, it's trivial to lose 20k in the very first volleys that come in at 18k range from enemy battleships at the beginning of the match. That's 25% of your health, vaporized withing 2 minutes of the game starting, and without you able to do much in return. Remember that AP pens at T9 and T10 are in the 5k/shot range, and the VAST majority of shots that you take from BB AP that don't bounce will be pens - very few overpens.

The GKF at least isn't really noticeably larger and handles the same, but you can get 50% more firepower and better secondaries. That's very significant. 

It just boils down to this: the lack of torp tubes really hurts the FDG's brawling capability, and at T9, the chances it gets to brawl are far less than at T7 for the Gnei. It's too big to maneuver well, and too big a target for experience opponents with huge ROF ships to shoot at.  It's not so much that the FDG is really inferior to the Gnei, it's that at the tier the FDG is at, it's SIGNIFICANTLY inferior to it's peers, while the Gnei is at least as good, if not better, than the average T7 BB.

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32 minutes ago, EAnybody said:

Yeah, for some people, it just doesn't work for them. I personally don't find the close-in dispersion a problem at all, but the lack of total barrels is a problem.

 

Brawling in a Gnei is all about the good secondaries and the torpedo tubes. The guns are useful, but mostly for blasting CAs in one-shot. Against BBs, they do decent damage, but the secondaries and torps are a real terror for insta-deletion of BBs, which is why they brawl so well. It's virtually impossible to citadel a Gnei if you're angled even a tiny bit - sure, you'll eat pens, but those torps do 25k+ damage and can't be dodged at close-range, and your secondaries are excellent for chunking off 10-20k from an opponent as you close to torp range. More if you go for the full Manual Secondaries route, but even without that, it absolutely brawls better than anything else it will ever see, with the exception of the Tirpitz.

Only slightly bigger (16 vs 15 inch), only slightly more (8 vs 6), with the down sides of a MUCH bigger ship that just eats pens all over the place. For it's tier, the guns aren't very good - everything it faces has at least 9 of the same caliber or higher guns, and doesn't have to give as much broadside to use a large portion of them. The 3x3 arrangement is superior to the 4x2 one.  The FDG does seem to have a bit better dispersion, particularly if you take the anti-dispersion Aiming Systems Module. That said, you're not landing a lot of shells out beyond 15km, either.

Penetration is better on the Gnei than the FDG - it's much more often shooting at significantly lower-armored ships than the FDG, plus it actually has better velocity (820 m/s vs the 810 m/s of the FDG). The slightly smaller caliber isn't much of a factor here. It's still sufficient to penetrate virtually everything, and overmatch a lot of stuff. The FDG can't overmatch more ships, because it sees fewer down-tiers, and it can't overmatch the bow armor of most of it's peers, while the Gnei can.

It might be ok if the FDG wasn't so freaking huge - I mean, the Bismark does far better with the same guns on the Gnei in the 4x2 arrangement, but it's 20% smaller than the FDG.  It's made worse by the fact that the FDG is always fighting T10 ships, and virtually never is against T7s, which means the volume of shots coming the FDG's way is FAR higher than against the Bismark or Gnei. And on such a huge target, they can't miss.  I mean, it's trivial to lose 20k in the very first volleys that come in at 18k range from enemy battleships at the beginning of the match. That's 25% of your health, vaporized withing 2 minutes of the game starting, and without you able to do much in return. Remember that AP pens at T9 and T10 are in the 5k/shot range, and the VAST majority of shots that you take from BB AP that don't bounce will be pens - very few overpens.

The GKF at least isn't really noticeably larger and handles the same, but you can get 50% more firepower and better secondaries. That's very significant. 

It just boils down to this: the lack of torp tubes really hurts the FDG's brawling capability, and at T9, the chances it gets to brawl are far less than at T7 for the Gnei. It's too big to maneuver well, and too big a target for experience opponents with huge ROF ships to shoot at.  It's not so much that the FDG is really inferior to the Gnei, it's that at the tier the FDG is at, it's SIGNIFICANTLY inferior to it's peers, while the Gnei is at least as good, if not better, than the average T7 BB.

The chances of me ever getting into a proper brawl with the Gnei is slim to none. by the time im in range, my health is already wittled down from focus fire. Just because it HAS secondaries and torps, doesn't mean its going to get there without dying. That Nagatos broadside will hurt you when you get in close range and you do need to braodside to launch those torps. Secondaries are a joke build((Unless they buffed how secondaries work since I last played.)).

 

When Yamato came out in beta, Secondary builds were all the rage. No they weren't. They were pitiful. They rarely hit and DD's weren't scared of it. They just rofled and hit you with a wave of ten torps. I've never seen Secondaries do anything significant. Now, sure over time they will wittle down, but you'd have been subject to significant damage by then from multiple targets((If we're going with a good enemy team.))

 

Gnei requires heavy passive play, meaning you aren't goingto be very useful until late in the match.

 

Gnei is better with a division and its the only time I can say its a good ship. Divisions. Torp range is 6km. Thats very small. The amount of fights that happen in 6km ranges is really really small unless you fight in a destroyer.  

 

Again, this is just personal opinion and from my experience running solo in pubby matches. Im currently working on Grinding thru my Gnei in Narai so I can get out of it.

 

As for your FDG thiing... More barrels and bigger calibers mean alot even fighting Cruisers. In my Gnei, Im penning sure, but im not getting those citadels when its aimed right. The dispersion at sub 10km makes it so you aren't deleting anything. Sure, you have secondaries, or so you say, but those secondaries aren't going to do much. Ive never EVER seen secondaries delete anyone unless it was over a signifanct amount of time, and if the enemy is within range of secondaraies and stays there for a long time... thats their fault.

 

 

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Hey

Do not go past T8 on the Germans; the T9 FDG is one of the worst ship in the game IMHO.  I made the huge, expensive mistake of buying it a second time and still is garbage, after almost 90k Xp on it, there are NO redeeming qualities for it.  It's a slow, lumbering, sluggish beast with crap guns (406's and 420's), forget dodging torps, even when you see them coming due to hydro, and you eat so much damage trying to get to brawling range that your deleted before even getting there, same goes for a secondary build, not worth taking since your nothing but a worthless island unable to fend for itself, unlike Bismarck/Tirpitz.  

 

Pete

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On 2/10/2018 at 12:07 PM, MandoWarrior1 said:

The chances of me ever getting into a proper brawl with the Gnei is slim to none. by the time im in range, my health is already wittled down from focus fire. Just because it HAS secondaries and torps, doesn't mean its going to get there without dying. That Nagatos broadside will hurt you when you get in close range and you do need to braodside to launch those torps. Secondaries are a joke build((Unless they buffed how secondaries work since I last played.)).

When Yamato came out in beta, Secondary builds were all the rage. No they weren't. They were pitiful. They rarely hit and DD's weren't scared of it. They just rofled and hit you with a wave of ten torps. I've never seen Secondaries do anything significant. Now, sure over time they will wittle down, but you'd have been subject to significant damage by then from multiple targets((If we're going with a good enemy team.))

Gnei requires heavy passive play, meaning you aren't goingto be very useful until late in the match.

Using the Gnei's secondaries is very map-dependent.  You need places where you can use Island cover to get somewhat close - that is, you want to be able to get inside secondary range almost immediately when you come out from cover. Here's my feelings about how well certain maps allow the Gnei to brawl (http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Maps):

  • Strait and New Dawn have some islands, but the arrangement is such that you'll hardly ever be able to use them, and they're arranged such that they're really too good for DD ambushes.
  • Trident can be good, particularly the west central side of the map, the other sections can be a bit too open, particularly in Standard mode (i.e. only bases, no caps)
  • Fault Line is usually bad, especially in Standard mode. The west side can be interesting, though, as there's enough places to avoid being DD ambushed while limiting long-range fire against you.
  • North and Northern Lights can usually be pretty good, mostly in the middle where you can use the edges of the central island to get inside other ships, and the big islands on both edges of the map restrict long-range fire.
  • Estuary is probably the best of all maps - lots of places to brawl in, just avoid sailing out to the edges.
  • Shards is almost as good, especially since it's always a Domination map. The A & C cap positions are great for brawling in, and even the central B works very well, you just have to wait until their forces decide to move into B and aren't camping back at their spawn.
  • Neighbors is good, primarily if you go to the island cluster in the mid- northwest.
  • Two Brothers is generally terrible.
  • Haven is usually not good - too much cover just far enough apart for you to have a hard time rushing into brawling range.

 

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Gnei is better with a division and its the only time I can say its a good ship. Divisions. Torp range is 6km. Thats very small. The amount of fights that happen in 6km ranges is really really small unless you fight in a destroyer.  

6km is indeed small, but you'd be surprised how useful 6km is when you brawl. It does two things:

  1. Keeps the DDs away from rushing you - torping a rushing DD is just the ultimate satisfaction, and forcing them to launch at 6-8km means you have a LOT more time to react.
  2. Lets you blast THREE opponents simultaneously. CA/CLs, in particular, are deathly afraid of those 6km torps, so they'll turn tail and run (which means they're not torping/shooting you) and you get to exact a price with your 2ndaries.  And torps are the Shizznit for dealing with angling BBs. 

The key is that you need to pick your position - most of the maps above which I said were "good" have plenty of places where you can trap an enemy trying to push.  You want to put them in the position where they're charging you (whether they mean to or not), and you can charge them, too.  If that's the case, then you can actually shoot your torps at 7-8km distance, and they'll close that and run into them. I can't count the number of times I've blasted a CA or BB with torps that I'd launched long before we were 6km apart, and they'd forgotten about closing speeds.

 

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As for your FDG thiing... More barrels and bigger calibers mean alot even fighting Cruisers. In my Gnei, Im penning sure, but im not getting those citadels when its aimed right. The dispersion at sub 10km makes it so you aren't deleting anything. Sure, you have secondaries, or so you say, but those secondaries aren't going to do much. Ive never EVER seen secondaries delete anyone unless it was over a signifanct amount of time, and if the enemy is within range of secondaraies and stays there for a long time... thats their fault.

The bigger caliber is irrelevant for the vast majority of time. Penetration between a 15 and 16 inch gun on cruisers is virtually identical, and the damage/shot is within 5%.  Any cruiser a Gnei sees it can pen/citadel everywhere, and overmatch a lot. Same for FDG.  I don't see much difference in dispersion between the FDG and Gnei at under 10km, either.

The problem with the extra turret in the FDG vs the Gnei is that the FDG handles like a floating brick.  Getting the back turrets into action is HARD, and you typically expose a whole lot of your big ship to do so. In the Gnei, it's significantly more nimble and a bit smaller overall, so it's not a risk as much to get the rear turret in play.  And if you CAN'T get the rear turret(s) in play, then the Gnei has the same amount of firepower as the FDG.

Which is why the 4x2 turret arrangement is awful, and considerably inferior to a 3x3 one - much less available firepower over much of the usable gun arcs.

 

Manual Secondaries are a terror, but you have to spec for them, and they come with tradeoffs.  I've played with them, and against T6 and under DDs or CLs, they absolutely shred them.  I've seen them kill half-strength CLs - that's 15k or so damage inside 1 minute.

Without MS, it's more of a crap shoot, but any DD or CA that's got less than 5k health is in dire peril. 

When using secondaries against BBs, they work wonders as a 3rd leg of the main gun/torp/secondaries triad.  Their range means that they're excellent for causing fires on BBs, which simply can't escape them well, and never underestimate the damage than 2 fires can do in a minute (36% of max health, FYI).

Sure, they're not insta-delete (usually, the odd hilarious secondary-caused Detonation excepted), but given a good brawl last at least a minute, engaging several ships in that minute you can easily cause 20k in secondary damage and fires without needing Manual Secondaries.  That's a lot - the equivalent of 2 citadels or 5+ pens, which is pretty much a VERY good extra salvo when you'd normally only have 2 main gun salvos in the same timeframe.

In a good brawl game, my secondary build with no Manual Secondaries typically scores 100-120 secondary hits. Including bounces/etc, they average 300/hit, so that's about 30-35k in damage, PLUS fires.

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The tier 7 German battleship is really fun in the Scenario Narai, especially in the latter stage when you enter the harbor and swarms of bot ships charge you.  Since you are a brawling German bb, you charge them right back with your secondary batteries firing on both sides and AA lighting up the sky, while you spray torpedoes and AP shells at everything.  So much fun!   :cap_haloween:

 

Cruiser drivers, specially those in Atlanta, will love you because you'll be out in the front tanking everything which allow them to fire wholesale without much returning fire.

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