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JohnPJones

Does the USN need ASuW torpedoes?

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I would say that it would depend upon the range, guidance systems, and countermeasures employed against it.

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The Mark 54s most likely have a ASuW mode, though with that tiny warhead, you're not sinking anything much bigger then a Corvette even if you're lucky. But as far as that commerical shipping thing goes, shoot Tomahawks at them. Two Tomahawks at the waterline and a Harpoon at the command island.

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3 hours ago, TornadoADV said:

The Mark 54s most likely have a ASuW mode, though with that tiny warhead, you're not sinking anything much bigger then a Corvette even if you're lucky. But as far as that commerical shipping thing goes, shoot Tomahawks at them. Two Tomahawks at the waterline and a Harpoon at the command island.

You can fire 3 per side to sink the larger ships, but there’s also the fact that it would likely still be almost an insta-cripple to just about any escort with a single torpedo.

as for the merchant angle, you can always just helo/rhib marines or SEALs over to take the ship, and set scuttling charges.

Edited by JohnPJones

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31 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

You can fire 3 per side to sink the larger ships, but there’s also the fact that it would likely still be almost an insta-cripple to just about any escort with a single torpedo.

as for the merchant angle, you can always just helo/rhib marines or SEALs over to take the ship, and set scuttling charges.

It just seems silly to sink merchantmen when using a blockade, it makes more sense these days to have a LPD or Assault Carrier nearby that can helo over Marines when a ship tries to make a run of it past the line.

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51 minutes ago, TornadoADV said:

It just seems silly to sink merchantmen when using a blockade, it makes more sense these days to have a LPD or Assault Carrier nearby that can helo over Marines when a ship tries to make a run of it past the line.

You’d still have escorts that could help, but ya I agree sinking merchantmen in the modern age seems silly with helos around.

but we need to find some way to give our surface ships more punch than they currently have 

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The only reason you need to hunt down and sink merchant ships is you are running a guerre de course as a weaker sea power against a stronger one.  The US has little or no need to do that today.  As for torpedoes sinking surface ships from surface ships, missiles fulfill the same role and are more flexible.  Thus, the USN has zero, or near zero, need for an surface ship anti-ship torpedo.

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As I said before, Tomahawks really fill in that niche role of "We need to sink something huge, slow and stupid". But the RUM-139 could easily be sized up for a longer range or for a bigger torpedo if such a capability was deemed needed by the USN. (It's currently on 15 feet tall, compared to the maximum of 23 feet for strike depth Mk 41 VLS cells or 26 feet for the improved Mk 57.)

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9 hours ago, JohnPJones said:

Was looking to see if ASROC had an anti-surface mode, but i stumbled upon this article, so do you think a heavy weight torpedo that can do ASuW and ASW  work with a range of 20-40 miles would serve a purpose?

 

http://navy-matters.blogspot.com/2017/06/surface-ship-torpedoes.html?m=1

 

 

Something like this in mind?  Note this is only for ASW work, and light torpedoes only, as those canisters can fit the size of the YJ-83 (Harpoon or Exocet analog).  They are meant to compensate that the helicopters can only carry one torpedo.

 

 

UODmYxt.jpg

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3 hours ago, Eisennagel said:

 

 

Something like this in mind?  Note this is only for ASW work, and light torpedoes only, as those canisters can fit the size of the YJ-83 (Harpoon or Exocet analog).  They are meant to compensate that the helicopters can only carry one torpedo.

 

 

UODmYxt.jpg

If only I had all those characters in my Chinese text book...lol

i think either a few heavy weights or a handful of light weights, 8 or so would be good.

put what ever VLS ASM gets chosen in VLS then put deck launchers for ASROC type dual purpose torpedo where the SVTT are now.

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5 hours ago, JohnPJones said:

If only I had all those characters in my Chinese text book...lol

i think either a few heavy weights or a handful of light weights, 8 or so would be good.

put what ever VLS ASM gets chosen in VLS then put deck launchers for ASROC type dual purpose torpedo where the SVTT are now.

So you just want a RUM-139 conversion?

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31 minutes ago, TornadoADV said:

So you just want a RUM-139 conversion?

Sure, I don’t really care what the delivery system is VLS, SVTT, deck launchers, I just think a longer range torpedo than what we currently have at least is necessary with larger warhead as well would be nice for ASuW

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No. Surface torpedoes serve no purpose. That blog post hits on the problems (and then handwaves them away) - they are slow and short ranged. Doing some quick geometry will show you why long range torpedo attacks are impossible: a 50 knot torpedo would take half an hour to cover 25 miles and the target can move 15 miles in that time. Even if you predicted its future position perfectly, if it detects the torpedo at anything other than point blank range it can evade it. Assume the torpedo is detected just 10 miles away, the target can turn and add another 6 miles of separation before the torpedo could reach its initial position. Even if we give the torpedo infinite range it would have to pursue for another 15 miles (30 minutes) before overtaking the target. Thus we can see that an inescapable torpedo attack has to be launched at around 1/2 the weapon's max range (Command actually models this weakness very well).

But the only way you are going to close to the 10-15 miles needed to launch a torpedo attack is if the enemy ship is already out of action. Otherwise you are going to be eating a very large number of missiles (and possibly even gunfire). Now, heavyweight torpedoes were often used in WWII for scuttling damaged ships, but it doesn't really seem cost effective to design a new weapon and add it to all our surface ships for such a limited role.

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Another US option is AGM 84 SLAM-ER.  That seems to be an often forgotten weapon.

 

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53 minutes ago, Murotsu said:

Another US option is AGM 84 SLAM-ER.  That seems to be an often forgotten weapon.

 

It shouldn't be, considering it's the land attack variant of the Harpoon.

 

3 hours ago, ARCNA442 said:

No. Surface torpedoes serve no purpose. That blog post hits on the problems (and then handwaves them away) - they are slow and short ranged. Doing some quick geometry will show you why long range torpedo attacks are impossible: a 50 knot torpedo would take half an hour to cover 25 miles and the target can move 15 miles in that time. Even if you predicted its future position perfectly, if it detects the torpedo at anything other than point blank range it can evade it. Assume the torpedo is detected just 10 miles away, the target can turn and add another 6 miles of separation before the torpedo could reach its initial position. Even if we give the torpedo infinite range it would have to pursue for another 15 miles (30 minutes) before overtaking the target. Thus we can see that an inescapable torpedo attack has to be launched at around 1/2 the weapon's max range (Command actually models this weakness very well).

But the only way you are going to close to the 10-15 miles needed to launch a torpedo attack is if the enemy ship is already out of action. Otherwise you are going to be eating a very large number of missiles (and possibly even gunfire). Now, heavyweight torpedoes were often used in WWII for scuttling damaged ships, but it doesn't really seem cost effective to design a new weapon and add it to all our surface ships for such a limited role.

There's nothing wrong with mixing in ASROC missiles into the ASM group to complicate the interception picture, if all things were equal. But they aren't by fact of said ASROC missiles having to carry what is essentially another missile in the front that not only makes them front heavy, but also sucks up valuable space for fuel. It might work from an airborne platform as you can throw in a glide body, but you'll never match a pure ASM missiles range 1 to 1.

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1 hour ago, TornadoADV said:

It shouldn't be, considering it's the land attack variant of the Harpoon.

 

It can also be configured as an ASM for air launch.  At least that's what the project manager and engineers told me when I was making the first 400 sets of ADU 801E adapter brackets for the Aero 58a munitions trailer.  Looks like they're still making them too.

https://govtribe.com/project/39-adu-801e-transport-adaptors

Saved the government a grunch of money on the rubber pads on them too by redesigning the manufacturing process and using a different rubber.  Did the same with several other parts too.  Anyway, it was designed to be a "poor man's Tomahawk" and could be configured for a bunch of missions.

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1 hour ago, Murotsu said:

It can also be configured as an ASM for air launch.  At least that's what the project manager and engineers told me when I was making the first 400 sets of ADU 801E adapter brackets for the Aero 58a munitions trailer.  Looks like they're still making them too.

https://govtribe.com/project/39-adu-801e-transport-adaptors

Saved the government a grunch of money on the rubber pads on them too by redesigning the manufacturing process and using a different rubber.  Did the same with several other parts too.  Anyway, it was designed to be a "poor man's Tomahawk" and could be configured for a bunch of missions.

Instead of Harpoon's radar seeker, SLAM-ER has an infrared seeker that would likely be less effective at finding the target. However, unlike Harpoon, it also has a two-way datalink which might actually make it the better choice if the launch aircraft can stick around to provide updates.

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1 hour ago, ARCNA442 said:

Instead of Harpoon's radar seeker, SLAM-ER has an infrared seeker that would likely be less effective at finding the target. However, unlike Harpoon, it also has a two-way datalink which might actually make it the better choice if the launch aircraft can stick around to provide updates.

The launch/hand off aircraft can directly control the SLAM via TV link like the old Mavericks and Walleyes.

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Actually the USN does have an ASuW torpedo, the MK-48 and MK-48 ADCAP 21" torpedoes.  These are long ranged weapons, capable of long range and operate under remote control (wire guided) or able to seek their own surface and submerged targets.  In theory at least these weapons COULD be launched from surface ships though torpedo tubes larger than the current family of 16" tubes for MK-46 and MK-50 over the side ASW torps would have to be reintroduced.

Just because it's theoretically possible doesn't mean I would expect to see it ever happen.

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