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SkywhaleExpress

Wargaming: Untie the hands of T4/5 CVs

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Let's face it... making T4/5 CV's not have manual drop or strafe means they can't really affect the batlte at all. Surface combatants constantly throw the match, driving derpside to enemy BB's and not playing to win... all the while you are stuck not being able to do proper attacks. Even if you manage to do 60-100k damage on the match, unless you're in a division with two unicorns... your efforts were for nothing....

And then those whom don't have experience in T6+ CV's... when they finally get to t6... they are completely useless and left wondering why they lost their entire compliment of planes in a strafe. 

 

You don't really keep experienced CV's from dropping on the enemy... though you do make it to where we can't escape locked combat, and if we're near enemy AA we get wiped..... other than that we're still able to do above average damage or better....

 

Meanwhile, we can't actually do what a t6+ CV can do, which is get a solid drop on an enemy, which helps balance out the fail of incompetent surface combatants. 

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3 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

Let's face it... making T4/5 CV's not have manual drop or strafe means they can't really affect the batlte at all. Surface combatants constantly throw the match, driving derpside to enemy BB's and not playing to win... all the while you are stuck not being able to do proper attacks. Even if you manage to do 60-100k damage on the match, unless you're in a division with two unicorns... your efforts were for nothing....

And then those whom don't have experience in T6+ CV's... when they finally get to t6... they are completely useless and left wondering why they lost their entire compliment of planes in a strafe. 

 

You don't really keep experienced CV's from dropping on the enemy... though you do make it to where we can't escape locked combat, and if we're near enemy AA we get wiped..... other than that we're still able to do above average damage or better....

 

Meanwhile, we can't actually do what a t6+ CV can do, which is get a solid drop on an enemy, which helps balance out the fail of incompetent surface combatants. 

And yet a lot of Tier 4-5 CV players can't even figure out how to control more than 1 squad at a time.  Tiers 4-5 are the training wheel tiers and giving an even wider skill gap potential to them seems insane.

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No, I don't want to see manual drop coming back to low teir CV's. Like galpanic said, playing a CV does indeed take skill. It requires a huge amount of concentration, map awareness, target selection, ect, ect.

 

I can easily see many new players, myself included getting very overwhelmed by the sheer amount of micro managing a CV requires. Furthermore, the lack of manual drop in low teirs does not really hinder the CV in a way that is significant. You have to keep in mind that at such low teirs AA on many ships is so trash that auto drop can still work. 

 

Now I can see your point, OP that the use of manual straf and drop is fundmental at the higher tiers but I can't see any way out of this issue. Throwing manual back at lower teirs won't solve the issue of new players not understanding how to strafe, yet returning it won't really help will it? 

 

Just me two cents. I can't belive I did this all on a phone. :cap_fainting:

 

 

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And yet, we're constantly bottom tier in tier 7 matches. Where t6/7 AA is godlike to little paper planes. And a dual CV 5/6  .. the 6's strafe you without consequence. Yep, you're teaching the new guys with training wheels...  HOW TO BE SEALZ!!!

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2 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

And yet, we're constantly bottom tier in tier 7 matches.

..... what? Care to explain

Nvm... I'm dumb. :cap_book:

Edited by Incendiary_Tanker

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Here is a better idea - limit ALL CVs to auto drops. Maybe give 1 or 2 seconds worth of strafe damage to a fighter squadron which "gets the jump" on another squadron (attacks from outside the forward arc defined by a 45 degree wide cone). 

CVs with manual drops are expected to be the primary damage dealers (look at the WG emblem requirements), scouts AND anti-air units. They have too much of an impact on the game as it is - one ship should not force an entire team to tailor their modules, captain skills and strategy around their presence. Asymmetrical role weight may work in competitive, but for random battles it needs to go. 

If WG has to, make CVs have manual drops in competitive play modes where the teams are selected in advance (CW if they are ever allowed in and tournaments) while disabling them in any setup where matchmaker determines the team composition (random, ranked). 

They can have manual drops in PVE - its practice for tournaments if anything. 

If auto-drops are too weak/boring, rework them upwards to balance the CV class. The manual plane control interface is sketchy enough as it is - it will take me 100 Co-Op battles just to figure out all the kinks. It could be made much more intuitive and easier to tweak for balancing purposes. 

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2 minutes ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Here is a better idea - limit ALL CVs to auto drops. Maybe give 1 or 2 seconds worth of strafe damage to a fighter squadron which "gets the jump" on another squadron (attacks from outside the forward arc defined by a 45 degree wide cone). 

CVs with manual drops are expected to be the primary damage dealers (look at the WG emblem requirements), scouts AND anti-air units. They have too much of an impact on the game as it is - one ship should not force an entire team to tailor their modules, captain skills and strategy around their presence. Asymmetrical role weight may work in competitive, but for random battles it needs to go. 

If WG has to, make CVs have manual drops in competitive play modes where the teams are selected in advance (CW if they are ever allowed in and tournaments) while disabling them in any setup where matchmaker determines the team composition (random, ranked). 

They can have manual drops in PVE - its practice for tournaments if anything. 

If auto-drops are too weak/boring, rework them upwards to balance the CV class. The manual plane control interface is sketchy enough as it is - it will take me 100 Co-Op battles just to figure out all the kinks. It could be made much more intuitive and easier to tweak for balancing purposes. 

I'd like you to use that argument with the US Navy pre and post-WW2.... 

 

Yeah, all ships had to cater to defending from air attacks, lest they be deleted.So they stick with AA protection and fighter escort/etc.

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59 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

Let's face it... making T4/5 CV's not have manual drop or strafe means they can't really affect the batlte at all. Surface combatants constantly throw the match, driving derpside to enemy BB's and not playing to win... all the while you are stuck not being able to do proper attacks. Even if you manage to do 60-100k damage on the match, unless you're in a division with two unicorns... your efforts were for nothing....

And then those whom don't have experience in T6+ CV's... when they finally get to t6... they are completely useless and left wondering why they lost their entire compliment of planes in a strafe. 

 

You don't really keep experienced CV's from dropping on the enemy... though you do make it to where we can't escape locked combat, and if we're near enemy AA we get wiped..... other than that we're still able to do above average damage or better....

 

Meanwhile, we can't actually do what a t6+ CV can do, which is get a solid drop on an enemy, which helps balance out the fail of incompetent surface combatants. 

Or, we could just remove manual drops altogether, along with fighters, and solve this problem once and forever. Let CV players have to work to get kills (like everyone else does) while removing the ability to drop torps .3K away from ships, remove the ability of fighters to hover and to perma-spot ships, and just let all "surface combatants" rely on their AA.

40 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

And yet, we're constantly bottom tier in tier 7 matches.

Just like everyone else with a tier 5 ship?

41 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

Where t6/7 AA is godlike to little paper planes.

And here I thought that having cross-dropped torps was OP, and here all the time it was AA. Silly me!

42 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

Yep, you're teaching the new guys with training wheels...  HOW TO BE SEALZ!!!

Sort of like what you guys teach every tier 4 BB you find ... well ... anywhere on the map?

23 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

I'd like you to use that argument with the US Navy pre and post-WW2.... 

Which really means ... absolutely nothing at all.

24 minutes ago, SkywhaleExpress said:

Yeah, all ships had to cater to defending from air attacks, lest they be deleted.So they stick with AA protection and fighter escort/etc.

 In real life ... sure. But this game has not one single thing to do with real life; it's a game, which requires BALANCE between types of ships, and you're advocating a buff to the strongest ships in the game. No.

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well,  stay out of  t4-5 then and quit seal clubbing new  CV players.          they really need to nerf higher tier CV to be balanced with rest of the ships as well.   

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I suggested this before, but: allow T4-5 carriers to manual drop & strafe in Co-op mode only.  Genuine carrier noobs get to practice those skills before they're thrown into T6+ matches, and you still avoid the potential for seal-clubbing along with the butt-hurt from low-tier cruiser & battleship players with no real AA on their ships.  Win-win.

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Blame the Clubbers who destroyed an entire generation of new players using "Manuel Droops" instead of playing the tiers that Challenged them.

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55 minutes ago, CLUCH_CARGO said:

Blame the Clubbers who destroyed an entire generation of new players using "Manuel Droops" instead of playing the tiers that Challenged them.

I personally know 3 people who quit WoWs after getting to tier 4 because they were sick of being helplessly massacred by CV planes while driving ships that have no AA worthy of the name.

No one likes being pummeled by something that they're helpless to defend against.

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No.  Some players had thousands of Langley battles because they enjoyed seal clubbing in a tier where it was virtually impossible to be opposed, and easy enough to stay away from the rare Yubari or Texas.

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I say no to manual drops at tier 4. However since tier 5 carriers see tier 6 carriers and surface ships, they need it back. It angers me to no end when you end up in a game with two CVs to each side where one CV can wipe your planes out with a strafe and you have no way to respond. Add to that the better AA on ships and making book can be tough for a Bogue or the IJN equivalent (I forget the name).

After reading a few more posts here am wondering if maybe autodrops for all tiers is the way to go as well as removing strafe altogether. Maybe it would calm some of the hatred towards carriers, dunno.

Edited by Taylor3006

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If you completely remove manual drops that makes it entirely impossible to kill a DD with an IQ above its shoe size or a cruiser with one above its age.

Edited by _V12

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59 minutes ago, _V12 said:

If you completely remove manual drops that makes it entirely impossible to kill a DD with an IQ above its shoe size or a cruiser with one above its age.

Don't have a problem with that.  DD's and CA's can't alpha strike delete other ships that are on the far side of the map either.  

But there are other potential ways of adjusting this.  For example, as you go up in tiers the circle for the drop gets smaller.  Or it can be made smaller with captain skills.  

But again, I think the way CV's are in game, it's so bad that WG just needs to start over with a blank slate.  I've only played a handful of games in the Langley.  I just don't in the least find it an enjoyable experience.  It's more akin to playing Cold Waters than it is WoWS.  

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5 hours ago, Umikami said:

Or, we could just remove manual drops altogether, along with fighters, and solve this problem once and forever. Let CV players have to work to get kills (like everyone else does) while removing the ability to drop torps .3K away from ships, remove the ability of fighters to hover and to perma-spot ships, and just let all "surface combatants" rely on their AA.

Min arming distance of the torpedos is .7km. Auto drops might get removed, but they'd need a lot of work to be useable at high tiers. 

Removing fighter idea has many advantages to everyone and no disadvantages to the CV player. To discourage sniping, CV's should have Bot CAP, similar to the way bot scouts and fighters are launched from other ships, but with a much shorter cooldown and have 2 squads.

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1 hour ago, ZARDOZ_II said:

Don't have a problem with that.  DD's and CA's can't alpha strike delete other ships that are on the far side of the map either.  

But there are other potential ways of adjusting this.  For example, as you go up in tiers the circle for the drop gets smaller.  Or it can be made smaller with captain skills.  

But again, I think the way CV's are in game, it's so bad that WG just needs to start over with a blank slate.  I've only played a handful of games in the Langley.  I just don't in the least find it an enjoyable experience.  It's more akin to playing Cold Waters than it is WoWS.  

Very few CV's have the ability to alpha strike an equal tier full HP BB.

 

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4 minutes ago, hipcanuck said:

Very few CV's have the ability to alpha strike an equal tier full HP BB.

Yes. That may be so.  But I was only responding to a comment on DD's and cruisers.  

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Let me start off by saying that I am not a particularly good player.  With that being said I have worked my way down to the Lex so I have some knowledge of CV's.  I have recently been going back to the Langely to relax a bit and uh...well.  70,000 and 90,000 games aren't outliers,  those are the norm.  So no,  I don't think low tier CV's need to have their hands untied.  If anything I think auto-drops need to be improved ((Maybe not for the aforementioned tiers...)) torpedo performance from planes need to be improved ((Just to be made faster.  Not a ton faster,  not Kaga levels of speed,  but better)) and manual drops and strafing need to be removed.  The smart CV player will still outplay the new CV player but we won't have an ocean between the two.

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7 hours ago, ZARDOZ_II said:

Don't have a problem with that.  DD's and CA's can't alpha strike delete other ships that are on the far side of the map either.  

You don't see the issue with CVs being completely inable to damage two ship classes?  

This is why CV mains usually don't bother with forum mongoloids.

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This is why they have auto drops:

6f04d5387fb27df0b57c7d4ee80fd420f1376cf7

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You want manual drop re-enabled?

Simple solution, bump the AA on ALL low tier ships, so that the CV can't actually attack with impunity, and might actually lose a few planes during the battle....:Smile_teethhappy:

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I can still cross drop DDs with Hosho, so no...

I'm not a CV expert by any means, but T4/5 only has a handful of powerful AA ships and only two that even get access to DFAA. Nicholas and Yubari.

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7 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

I can still cross drop DDs with Hosho, so no...

I'm not a CV expert by any means, but T4/5 only has a handful of powerful AA ships and only two that even get access to DFAA. Nicholas and Yubari.

Yup. The problem was always lack of AA and DF even more than manual drops.

And it looks like Hosho is managing ok even without manual....:Smile_teethhappy:

Spoiler

iftk9s3.png

 

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