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Pigeon's Weekly Thought Feb. 5th, 2018

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Hey Captains!

Welcome to another Weekly Thought.  

 

Now that King of The Sea is over, I wanted to know you're thoughts on competitive play that is fully supported and built into the client. 

What would you like to see? What are your thoughts on a good tournament scene? 

(Now if you don't like High Tier play, don't comment. Carry on somewhere else.)

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2 minutes ago, Pigeon_of_War said:

Hey Captains!

Welcome to another Weekly Thought.  

 

Now that King of The Sea is over, I wanted to know you're thoughts on competitive play that is fully supported and built into the client. 

What would you like to see? What are your thoughts on a good tournament scene? 

(Now if you don't like High Tier play, don't comment. Carry on somewhere else.)

 

Why must competitive play be limited to high tiers? I don't see why there can't be a future ranked season (ranked is considered a competitive mode) that starts at something like tier 9 (as a progress prerequisite) and then at some rank transitions down to, say, tier 5. Lower tiers are a part of the game, too.

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I'd like to see something competitive built into the client that supports spur-of-the-moment competitive play for the casual players. 

I mean, I know I already have, and I know it kinda failed miserably, I'm just saying I'd still like to see it (he said wistfully).


On another note, and tongue firmly in cheek, I hope it isn't the case that they only let you have one thought per week.

:Smile_ohmy:

:Smile_teethhappy:

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I really enjoyed the KOTS, as a spectator. For the finals, half our clan or more, were glued to the Twitch streams. Not only did we enjoy watching, but we learned a ton of tricks to help our own gameplay.

It was also a happy (if imperfect) contrast to the grindfest approach to Ranked and Clan battles. 

16 minutes ago, Pigeon_of_War said:

competitive play that is fully supported and built into the client.

 make competitions easy and fun to spectate.

look at other forms of competition that do not employ the spreadsheet medal of persistence competition model.

The pyramid design of KOTS and many sports tournaments, leading to semi-finals, quarter finals and a final duel, is much more satisfying, even for those who don't participate, or who are knocked out of the race at an earlier stage.

The "everyone who takes part is guaranteed a reward of some kind" for Clan Battles, might be integrated into the Pyramid model.

The KOTS model also allows for closer and more a) effective referee supervision, b) a fairer and more honest ruleset, the two things notably absent from the Clan Battles pilot season (a failing which was very disappointing after WG's experiences over many years with WOT.) 

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Right now,it's a stale meta. CV's do the spotting, and everyone trys to hide. Ship compositions are always the same. Honestly, unless the competition comes with diversity amongst what teams field and how they perform, it is going to be booring. 

 

In addition, the tiers matter as well. There needs to be diversity in tier requirement between tier 6 and 10. It needs to be fresh and interesting.

 

Also, it needs to be easy for anyone to access. If it is going to be sponsored in some way, it needs to be accessible.

 

The competitive ideology in the community right now is going to work against itself if you want to take a KOTS like tournament and expand it to cater to literally everyone who plays right now. And if competitive play begins to affect the balancing of ships as seen in random battles, it won't help competitive get off the ground.

 

My last 2 cents are about premiums in competitive. There needs to be a limit where if you don't have a ship in the tech tree that is of the same tier and class as your premium, you can't bring that said premium. If you want competitive to have integrity, you need to protect it for people who work hard to get there, not people who buy in and leave. I know this doesn't make WG money, but something's got to give.

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It would be nice to have training mode offer clan wars and ranked cap layouts, instead of only random cap layouts.

 

Some other "competitive" suggestions.

  • Royal Rumble, last man standing wins mode
  • Some of the other stuff, like death racing, would be nice
  • Why is it only higher tier? There ought to be a "Little league", like T5

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3 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

It would be nice to have training mode offer clan wars and ranked cap layouts, instead of only random cap layouts.

 

Some other "competitive" suggestions.

  • Royal Rumble, last man standing wins mode
  • Some of the other stuff, like death racing, would be nice
  • Why is it only higher tier? There ought to be a "Little league", like T5

I also am in favor of low tier competition. Doesn't mean they need massive rewards and all, but just a little something. Allowing everyone to participate would be really neat.

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6 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

It would be nice to have training mode offer clan wars and ranked cap layouts, instead of only random cap layouts.

 

Some other "competitive" suggestions.

  • Royal Rumble, last man standing wins mode
  • Some of the other stuff, like death racing, would be nice
  • Why is it only higher tier? There ought to be a "Little league", like T5

These are already in the training room settings for maps that were played during CBs.

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Hi Pigeon,

i know my opinion may not be fun for most people, and some may call me elitist for it, but it has to be said. 

There is a need for more high tier competitive, CB is fine but we need more, a bit like Clan Wars in WoT and Strongholds, we need multiple modes which have different limits. (I know WoT isn't WoWS, but it may be something to look at) I liked playing Global map and all of it, so it's why i'm saying some modes like this needs to happens in ships. It could also work with the clans that don't fully want T10, as SH is T6, 8 and 10 for WoT (something like, 7, 8 and 10 could work for ships) It would make people interested in WoWS for a longer period, cause people like me who have all ships unlocked, the game doesn't have the same fun as before. (For those wondering, i could free XP to France and still have 1 million free xp, so yeah) It's what kept me in WoT for this long, and it's why i'm proposing it. KoTS needs to stay as well, and maybe make it a bit the "official" league for Warships Competitive.

Thanks,

Shinano

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8 minutes ago, Swagger897 said:

These are already in the training room settings for maps that were played during CBs.

Are they? I didn't see them. Hopefully they are in 0.7.2


IMO, it would have been nice to have KOTS commentated on in other languages too.

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@MrDeafCheck in Control in the settings, activate all scenario of the training room and you'll see them. ;)

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I've already given some feedback to the overall KotS organizers that's specific to the tournament itself, but I think what you're after is more generic.  Most of these will be from the perspective of someone trying to stream competitive play, so let's get started.

1.  Better support for spectators.  I know that spectator/e-sports views are pretty low on the priority list, but you asked, so it's my top request.  I've streamed a full season of Supremacy League and now the NA bracket of KotS, and just want to have better tools to do that.  Specifically:

  • The ability to join a training room match as a spectator (not a ship), thereby having no influence on the score of the game or having to waste time killing yourself.
  • The ability to see all ships on both sides of the match when playing as a spectator.  
  • The ability to see when a ship is using their consumables (and which consumables is being used) when playing as a spectator.  We used to have something close to this with Monstro Markers, but recent clamp-downs on the modding community got it removed.  We need it back, please.
  • Support for at least 6-8 spectators in a single game. 

2.  Tournament modes for all 42x42km and 48x48km maps. 

3.  Additional cap layouts in tournament mode.  You guys are already heading this way with the maps we've been playing in Clan Battles, so kudos.  It would be nice for teams to have to learn how to play a MAP and not just a cap arrangement.  Set it up so that the cap arrangement is random (from a short list, say 3 possible layouts) when a tournament map loads. 

4.  The ability to disable ambient sounds in Port separate from ambient sounds in a match.  This helps between games; some ports are noisy.

5.  When spectating a specific player (i.e. the camera is locked on to their ship), show me more than just their health and their consumables/ammo bar.  Show me everything: their rudder commands, their speed selection, what target they're locked on to, etc.  Make it just like I was playing that ship, just without the ability to control it.    Right now, certain parts of the UI - notably speed and rudder commands - are hidden from the spectator.

6.  Provide the ability (in the UI) to toggle the compass display on/off in the bottom left. 

May come up with more later, but that gets things started for now.

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2 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Are they? I didn't see them. Hopefully they are in 0.7.2


IMO, it would have been nice to have KOTS commentated on in other languages too.

French and Spanish, it would seem normal, for NA. But let's not forget, the match commentary was undertaken by volunteers.

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I enjoyed the high tiers of clan wars. I would also like to see periodical variations of tiers.

 

Perhaps every new season of ranked and/or clan battles goes to a different tier. We started with 10, maybe next be 7’s? Or, we could do it based on a player poll of which tier should be next.

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36 minutes ago, HowitzerBlitzer said:

 

Why must competitive play be limited to high tiers? I don't see why there can't be a future ranked season (ranked is considered a competitive mode) that starts at something like tier 9 (as a progress prerequisite) and then at some rank transitions down to, say, tier 5. Lower tiers are a part of the game, too.

We saw how well it worked when WG tried to port it to tier 6/8 in world of tanks, it didn't work very well, lower tier clans were still frustrated by top clans stomping them, higher tier clans were annoyed with the poor balance of vehicles for that purpose.

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10 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

 


IMO, it would have been nice to have KOTS commentated on in other languages too.

KOTS streams were available in several European languages other than English, notably Italian, French, and I believe Polish.

Edited by SeaRaptor00

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I would really like to see competitive play across all tiers as well - each tier has its own metagame which at the moment is mostly hidden by matchmaking forcing everything to conform to the meta of the highest tier in the match. 

Low tier BBs, CAs and DDs have their own quirks and support strategies which would not be viable with high tier ships - the diversity would likely improve the quality of play all around. Not to mention the historical significance of battles such as Jutland which could be tapped into using ships which served in that era. 

If it turns out that tiers are not balanced competitively, the tier needs to be rebalanced (at least for competitive) - there is no reason every little ship stat needs to be the same for a random battle. 

Edited by MaxL_1023

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i'm all for letting people take their swing at a lower league championship, but the whole "T-10 limit" thing on the top league is there for a reason. New, inexperienced players, and I hate how elitist this sounds, just simply aren't going to be able to play at the level the experienced teams are at. I think If we want KotS to be successful like it has been in Europe, then it's going to need a little more help with publicity for audience growing. getting to word out there with media like youtube, interviews with top clans to give people an idea as to what really goes on during these games as well as a chance to learn from some of the best, events (like the sheriffs in WoT) instead of just a portal announcement. Also, finding more casters who can really break down the competitive meta and describe what is going on to viewers so that they can understand what they are seeing, which should make it more exciting. 

 

 

Edit: I should hasten to add that this applies to KotS only. I think weekend tournaments 1v1 or small division tourniments at various tiers on a bi-weekly basis would be a great way for  The community as a whole to get involved with a more competitive wows.  Hopefully, it wouldn't foster a greater interest that would go to building a broader audience for KotS and inspire players to put in the effort, therefore play time, to one day reach that level.

Edited by WarEagle_97
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It seems people would like competition supported for all tiers. Something that could work for this is having weekend tournaments. If you've ever played an online poker game, it would kind of be like those tournaments. Maybe have 3-5 small tournaments that last for three hours or so each, where you queue up with friends in small 3-7 ship comps in whatever the tournament restrictions are, and the server manages a bracket for all participating teams. 

 

Prizes could range from some flags, a day premium etc to larger prizes such as a doubloon pool for entry fee tournaments. Entry fee could be a nice way to take away from the massive credit banks some players have, or you could enter with doubloons or free xp from a business standpoint as well. Having them on weekends would probably get even more players coming on for those days/times and also give something for the veterans to keep themselves occupied. 

 

Beyond that, making all maps tournament spawn, maybe having alternate cap set ups for some like clan battles and introducing a spectator mode would go a long way to improving the tournaments we already have. 

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49 minutes ago, Pigeon_of_War said:

Hey Captains!

Welcome to another Weekly Thought.  

 

Now that King of The Sea is over, I wanted to know you're thoughts on competitive play that is fully supported and built into the client. 

What would you like to see? What are your thoughts on a good tournament scene? 

(Now if you don't like High Tier play, don't comment. Carry on somewhere else.)

 

I liked the old days in WOT for tournaments.  Run the weekly and weekend tournaments concurrently.  The map, tier, and team composition changed weekly.  You build your team according to the allotted points allowed, types, and classes of ships.  It gives the option of having the entire player base participate.  It was always big fun with tanks.

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I don't really have the time to make a fully fleshed-out post, so bullet points instead.

Why does EU defeat NA so decisively every server clash?

  • Differences in server population > EU naturally has a bigger talent pool
  • Community Contributors leveraging their popularity to support the competitive scene > Flamu's stream alone tops 3K viewers, Quadrilus from MIA is lucky if he can get 200
  • Superior organization > EU scene is able to better coordinate between streamers, players, and WG Paris to maximize exposure, attract tournament participation, and deliver a superior experience to viewers.

Ideally I would want to see NA build off what we already have rather than bulldozing everything down in favor of new game modes

  • Coordination between existing player-run organizations such as Supremacy League and WG NA
    • Web portal, forum exposure
    • Prizing sponsorship ideally
    • Having MrConway from the Paris office telling the Emeryville office how to fix their copypaste promotion articles is embarrassing for us
  • What can the devs do?
    • Tournament spawns for all maps
    • Better map balancing
      • Ex. Alpha spawn on Trap is favored to cap A due to the shape and proximity of the islands (GL trying to remove a DM with smoke support)
      • Ex. Bravo spawn on Atlantic has an autocap spot on A and can camp a radar AA cruiser near B (risky to do so on Alpha spawn)
      • Symmetrical maps would fix these problems
Edited by CarefreeTongue
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I quite enjoyed taking part in KotS and in SL last season.  I learned a lot and particularly enjoyed the teamwork that it forces if you want to do well.  I hope to continue taking part in the future, in whatever form competitive takes.

One thing I will say I've noticed is a lack of support from WG NA's side.  If you look at the EU side of things, they had casters flown into their Paris HQ to live stream the finals & international part of the tourney.  On the NA side, it seemed our casters had no control over what they were seeing and were basically forced to use muted versions of Izo & Flamu (they can correct me if that's wrong).  I mean, even in the announcement article for the finals it was just straight up copy/pasted from the EU website without any edits made to switch EU info to NA info.  I know that was corrected but not being able to do more than ctrl + c, ctrl + v is the definition of tepid support and it was painful to see given the enormous effort put into this by the organizers and teams.

I understand that as these tournaments are primarily player organized they're not incredibly high on the WG priority list.  WG, after all, is a business and needs to make money but the current level of support for these events is....questionable at best.  

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I think in general this comp season went very well.  CB to Ranked to KOTS.  I really hope the publicity and rewards gets more teams on board for the next cycle.  My only concern is the temp of the events places demands on critical flags especially anti-detonation flags.  Before signal containers gave up to 15 flags at a time, and I agreed with the nerf to reduce the supply as we didnt burn many with the ranked rewards since ranked rewards usually (until this season) gave a healthy amount. 

With CB and less signals in ranked I think demand has exceeded the supply.

I wanted to share some ideas I had that might help for the CV rework.  First issue is generating interest.  A third CV line has the best shot at accomplishing that, and has the additional benefit of offering a third balancing option to soften distinctions between US and IJN CVs. 

AS load outs should go.  They reduce the competitive meta to making CVs glorified spotters for the teams.  All CVs  should receive a balanced load out so they can scout, defend, and strike. 

At the time the roll out occurs launch a campaign that will help teach people how to CV.  The focus should be on per game tasks to prevent failing your way through.  Tasks can be things like spot three DDs in one battle, spot 20 torpedoes in 1 battle, shoot down 20 planes in one battle, cause 30k damage in DOTs in one battle to teach people what they should be doing and how to cause DOTs.  Things like sniping a CV missions should be avoided as doing it successfully is a reward unto itself.

I know you werent looking for that, but I dont post much in Discord figured I'd kill two birds.  Anyways, I've been really happy with the competitive moves you guys are doing.  Keep it up!

 

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8 minutes ago, LadyUniPotato said:

On the NA side, it seemed our casters had no control over what they were seeing and were basically forced to use muted versions of Izo & Flamu (they can correct me if that's wrong). 

This was correct only for the Grand Finals (cross-server) portion of the tournament.  NA streamers had complete control over their destiny (and cameras) for the entirety of the NA bracket. 

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31 minutes ago, SoliDeoGloria said:

We saw how well it worked when WG tried to port it to tier 6/8 in world of tanks, it didn't work very well, lower tier clans were still frustrated by top clans stomping them, higher tier clans were annoyed with the poor balance of vehicles for that purpose.

Yes, and I was there for the 6/8 CW in WoT as well.

My comment was regarding competitive play of those tiers, not for new players to access competitive modes. That's why I included the tier 9 stage. My comment was also directed at the competitive mode "fully supported and built into the client" known as 'Ranked Battles.'

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