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Reckun

Clan Battles DD comparison

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Is the Gearing the best dd for team play?  What are the options?  I try to break down choices.

First- we need to really think about what a dd is supposed to do in Clan Battles:

  • Contest Caps
  • Keep targets in LoS (Scout)
  • Kill other dd's
  • Kill bb's and cruisers
  • Smoke

Contest Caps

The Gearing has very good dpm under 6 km at 36000 HE and 42000.  It can turn very well to dodge torps and incoming fire, and has good concealment.

The Grozovoi has better dpm at range due to a 950 shell velocity, so can outgun other boats at the moment of detectability (around 6km).  If the Grozovoi runs (and they are the fastest of the point contesters at 39.5 knots, they can force the engagement to the range of their choice as long as both dd's keep firing and are detected.

The Z-52 has the same fire rate as the Grozovoi at a 4 second reload, but not nearly as good shell velocity.  The AP is the best of the 4 dd's compared, at 3000.  Where the Gearing and Grozovoi's special ability is defensive AA, the Z-52 has Hydro.  That means if an enemy dd decides to try to spam inside smoke, you can push them out.

The Shimi and YueYang aren't really good point contestors due to the nature of them being torpedo boats.  They both have excellent torpedoes, but the Shimi's guns really can't keep up in a close engagement, and the YueYang has deepwater torps that basically cuts it's damage potential in half when fighting other dd's.

Scout

The Gearing, Shimi, and Grozovoi are the best scouts with the lowest detectability range (7.6 km base) where as the others are slightly higher.

The Grozovoi has an advantage of speed and can escape quicker, whereas the Gearing is the slowest and may have trouble outrunning the faster dd's.

I would say the Z-52 is the weakest scout, with both low speed and higher detectability.

Kill other DDs

The Gearing's guns are good at very short range (below 6 km) and when shooting over small islands.

The Grozovoi guns are laser beams with the fastest shell velocity.  Even though the dpm on paper is lower than the Gearing's, being able to hit more often and at longer ranges gives this boat a distinct advantage in a gun fight.   

The Z-52 has very strong AP, and while the guns don't turn as fast as a Gearing or have the shell velocity of the Grozovoi, they are strong when shooting broadside dd targets when using AP.

The Shimi really depends on torpedo saturation to win a 1 v 1, and are just not very good at high competitive play at killing other dd's. 

The Yueyang's deep water torps make it one dimensional when fighting other dd's.  

Kill BBs and Cruisers

This comes down to torpedoes and fire chance.

The Gearing can spam over hills but has the lowest HE fire chance at 5%.  The Gearing's torpedoes are 16k, well beyond radar and hydro range, which give it the second best real chance to do damage to larger targets.

The Grozovoi has the best HE fire chance at 8%.  The torps are arguably the worst, with a 10k range and long reload.

The Z-52 has the weakest damage torps, but the fastest reload time, allowing for more area denial, but less actual kills.

The Shimi and even the YueYang are the real winners here with great torps.

Smoke

The Gearing has the best smoke duration.   But this is of questionable importance in Clan Battles.  While smoking for a team mate allows them to shoot in cover, bb's can not take advantage of this.  Cruisers can, and do appreciate smoke, and other dd's can take advantage of smoke if working in pairs.  Having long duration smokes gives longer concealed time, but to be honest, if you stay in smoke more then 10 seconds at top tier gameplay, you are a torp magnet.  This is why I think having long smoke is a double edged sword- sure you can stay longer, but do you really want to?

Conclusion (or TL:DR)

Though no dd is the best, some 2 dd combos become the clear winners:

Z-52 and Gearing- if your dd players are more aggressive then the Gearing combo may be the best choice.  The real advantages in this grouping are the smoke duration and the ability of the Gearing to torp at 16 km (beyond the Radar/Hydro range).

Z-52 and Grozovoi- if your dd players are more cautious then the Grozovoi combo may be the best choice.  If the Z-52 stays forward and smokes, the Grozovoi can better snipe at a comfortable range (9 - 10 km) which is out of the effective range of the Gearing.  Late game this combo suffers as torpedo range is within radar range.

While being strong boats in their own way, the Shimi, YueYang, and Khaba are just not recommend for Clan Battles.  The Shimi's lackluster guns and YueYang's deepwater torps means they can not contest caps very well, and the Khaba, while a great harasser, can not cap as well either due to the range it can be detected.  Since Capping is the primary role for dd's in Clan Battles, and damage/scouting are secondary, these ships just do not do the job as well as the Gearing, Grozovoi, and Z-52.

 

 

 

Edited by Reckun
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2 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Hmmm..you didn't add the Khabrosk.

The Khaba is not recommend due to the range it can be detected.  It is a great harasser, and the strongest gunboat, but it can not cap points.  If it pushes, it gets detected by the entire enemy team and has to run. DD's in clan battles have to be able to contest points.  That's why I honestly can't recommend the Khaba, Shimi, or Yueyang.

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What it does very well is kill other dd's. Clans have normally paired Khabs and Shimis together. Each cover the others weakness. Shimis are good at capping and scouting. Khabs are very good at killing dd's spotted.

Edited by Bill_Halsey
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1 hour ago, Bill_Halsey said:

What it does very well is kill other dd's. Clans have normally paired Khabs and Shimis together. Each cover the others weakness. Shimis are good at capping and scouting. Khabs are very good at killing dd's spotted.

The Shimi is a TERRIBLE capper.  They are good at spotting and long distance torping, but they do not have the guns to fight any of the other dd's.  

You are right, Khabas are dd killers.  The problem with the Khaba is it is so easily spotted.  And in competitive team play, you can't do your primary job of capping if you are out spotted.  Any decent dd player will just stay out of your detection range and watch you get melted by the rest of the team.  Full stealth build for the Khaba is 7.86, whereas the Gearing and Shima is 5.9.  When the Khaba fires it's detectability goes up to 13.17 whereas the Gearing only goes to 9.39.

Even with those numbers- if you go Gearing/Grozovoi and Z-52 vs Shima/Khaba, the Shima is going to get smoked in their smoke because of the Z-52's hydro, where the G/G Z52 use smoke to lose detection from the Khaba.  And all those Shima torps?  With the Z52's hydro, you spot them a mile away.  And forever later, your Khaba is still detected by the entire enemy team...  The Shimi and Khaba are both kiting boats- the shimi shoots torps and runs, the Khaba fires at extreme distances to dodge.  You can't cap with two boats that are kiters.

Edited by Reckun

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The question is, which DD can survive radar infected maps better.

There's really not much chance for DD vs DD action in CB. Once you are spotted, it's always DD (you) vs the whole red fleet.

DD's main functions in CB, imho, are vision, and cap control. The later is not necessarily taking the caps, but also denying the caps. Either will put you in the risk of getting radared and how you react to it is vital. Harassing the cap and take it when possible, while staying alive is the most helpful thing a DD can do in CB.

Which boat it is depends on how you play each of them. I am still looking tbh. Shimakaze worked better for me since I can bail out quickly and the 12km torp has (barely) enough range to make the red ships think while staying at the edge of radar range.

I may try YueYang next time now that I have her.

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2 hours ago, Reckun said:

The Shimi is a TERRIBLE capper.  They are good at spotting and long distance torping, but they do not have the guns to fight any of the other dd's.  

You are right, Khabas are dd killers.  The problem with the Khaba is it is so easily spotted.  And in competitive team play, you can't do your primary job of capping if you are out spotted.  Any decent dd player will just stay out of your detection range and watch you get melted by the rest of the team.  Full stealth build for the Khaba is 7.86, whereas the Gearing and Shima is 5.9.  When the Khaba fires it's detectability goes up to 13.17 whereas the Gearing only goes to 9.39.

Even with those numbers- if you go Gearing/Grozovoi and Z-52 vs Shima/Khaba, the Shima is going to get smoked in their smoke because of the Z-52's hydro, where the G/G Z52 use smoke to lose detection from the Khaba.  And all those Shima torps?  With the Z52's hydro, you spot them a mile away.  And forever later, your Khaba is still detected by the entire enemy team...  The Shimi and Khaba are both kiting boats- the shimi shoots torps and runs, the Khaba fires at extreme distances to dodge.  You can't cap with two boats that are kiters.

If you gunfight another DD in a cap in Clan wars.. Your doing it wrong.

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Hmm...  The Grozovoi is the dd rental, that should make things interesting!!!  

On 2/5/2018 at 2:33 PM, Spyde said:

If you gunfight another DD in a cap in Clan wars.. Your doing it wrong.

Spyde, are you saying that dd's are strictly spotters for the cruisers?  If so, I could see Shimi's being a valid choice as their low detectability and superior torps would be the perfect spotter boats :)

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2 hours ago, Reckun said:

Hmm...  The Grozovoi is the dd rental, that should make things interesting!!!  

Spyde, are you saying that dd's are strictly spotters for the cruisers?  If so, I could see Shimi's being a valid choice as their low detectability and superior torps would be the perfect spotter boats :)

I'm saying players know how to focus a ship in Clan wars.  So soon as your spotted or open fire.  Everyone that can will shoot you.   Losing a ship is huge in CW.    Getting into a 1v1 DD gunfight is a losing battle. No one wins in the end  Its to risky.

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The Gearing? Lol... no...

It melts too easily under gunfire with its large silhouette. The torps are near irrelevant at high tiers as the BB's have finally learned WASD hax. And a 6km range for optimal DPM is useless as it's not the other DD's a Gearing has to worry about, its the cruisers and battleships that have no problems popping it if it enters a cap.

Shimakaze has the torps and cap abilities. The Grozovoi is a close contender with excellent guns and detectability. The Z-52 has hydro to get that Gearing instantly killed.

And the Khabarovsk can kill anything eventually. Teams are so obsessed with nailing a Khabarovsk that they neglect the true goals and frequently go on a wild goose chase trying to kill something they cant hit. Its an excellent distraction. Watch the t4rdz as they get kited by a Khaba while his team members are capping everything else...

Oh, I forgot the Yueyang. I'm simply not familiar enough with it as I only have the Gadja Mada. I don't see too many of them in T10.

Edited by ElectroVeeDub

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On 2/7/2018 at 9:33 PM, Reckun said:

Hmm...  The Grozovoi is the dd rental, that should make things interesting!!!  

Spyde, are you saying that dd's are strictly spotters for the cruisers?  If so, I could see Shimi's being a valid choice as their low detectability and superior torps would be the perfect spotter boats :)

What do you mean by low detectability? 5.9 is on par with pretty much everything else and Yueyang is 5.8. Torps? You must be kidding. Clan war torp hits are rare like diamond

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On 2/5/2018 at 1:01 PM, Reckun said:

The Shimi is a TERRIBLE capper.  They are good at spotting and long distance torping, but they do not have the guns to fight any of the other dd's.  

You are right, Khabas are dd killers.  The problem with the Khaba is it is so easily spotted.  And in competitive team play, you can't do your primary job of capping if you are out spotted.  Any decent dd player will just stay out of your detection range and watch you get melted by the rest of the team.  Full stealth build for the Khaba is 7.86, whereas the Gearing and Shima is 5.9.  When the Khaba fires it's detectability goes up to 13.17 whereas the Gearing only goes to 9.39.

Even with those numbers- if you go Gearing/Grozovoi and Z-52 vs Shima/Khaba, the Shima is going to get smoked in their smoke because of the Z-52's hydro, where the G/G Z52 use smoke to lose detection from the Khaba.  And all those Shima torps?  With the Z52's hydro, you spot them a mile away.  And forever later, your Khaba is still detected by the entire enemy team...  The Shimi and Khaba are both kiting boats- the shimi shoots torps and runs, the Khaba fires at extreme distances to dodge.  You can't cap with two boats that are kiters.

So much wrong.  Particularly about Shimakaze.

I played Shimakaze last season quite often.  It was only one of our callers who wanted a Z-52 for his strats was when I didnt run Shima.  I capped with Shima just fine throughout CUTE's time in Typhoon.  I preferred Shima, as I feel its the most survivable boat in the dog pile situation Spyde talks about.  Its lower in the water, the second fastest, good rudder shift with a decent turning circle that when coupled with its speed means you can really shake your butt.  I feel very comfortable baiting radar in Shima.  Literally, shoot me.  I want my team to see you.  Fire away.

Shima vs Z-52, why am I going to smoke?  I dodge far better, my boat eats far less AP pens, and hes got hydro.  Chase me [edited].  I'll keep cranking out 2-3k volleys on a Zed until he smokes.  I have faith my team will get more damage on any gun boat than I receive, usually by a fairly large margin too.  If I can bait a Zed to smoke, now his consumables are out of sync giving me a window of advantage in the near future.

But the bad torp detection people cry about.  Well, everyone and their sister runs hydro, almost always chaining it when doing anything that puts them at torp risk.  With hydro everything is spotted at the same distance, and speed becomes a factor.  There is almost no reaction difference between a YY, Shima, Gearing or Z-52 when not factoring in TA.  Shima does get more torps out with the third launcher, being neck in neck with Z-52, and the torps hit far harder than anything else.

Khaba is nothing but a meal.  I see a Khaba on the enemy team, and I consider them down 3/4 of a ship.  Its that bad.  DD killer?  LOL.  Yeah find me.  Go on ahead push while spotted right into my team.  I'll wait till you shoot then smoke up and finish things with AP just to ice the cake.  No serious team fears a Khaba. 

Grozovoy is just too clunky to be serious in the CB environment.  Its fast, but an easy target that eats AP pens.

You dont even mention Yue Yang, which is a damn powerful boat either running smoke or radar.  I rate her the second most survivable DD.

Z-52 and Gearing, the old in meta DDs of last season are obviously still going to be strong.  Both are balanced by their love to eat AP pens and are sluggish handling. 

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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I have seen a TON of Shimi's this weekend in clan battles.  Area denial is strong!  Haven't seen any YueYangs yet.  I would think that the YueYang would be strong due to it's guns and torps being on par with a Gearing but are the deepwater torps that much of a handicap?

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2 hours ago, Reckun said:

I have seen a TON of Shimi's this weekend in clan battles.  Area denial is strong!  Haven't seen any YueYangs yet.  I would think that the YueYang would be strong due to it's guns and torps being on par with a Gearing but are the deepwater torps that much of a handicap?

Shima was heavily used last season.  

Z-52 fell off fast due to the risk vs radar vs torp range.  I have only seen 1-2 this season.

 

Upper Groups i have seen alot of Gearing and a few YY.

 

 

 

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It's a mix of factors. With the right team, commination of ships and player skills each can have a strong role. I find the Gearing a good capper, scout, and knife fighter-best overall jack of all trades and with 13.2km 71kt fish it can hit hard. Khabs can run fast and keep other dds live, Shimas can do a good job at area denial and help take and hold caps or make choke points death traps. Doing these jobs well requires proper support.

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Don't underestimate the YueYang in clan wars. She is very good at glassing a red DD long enough to get it focus fired and deaded. She is proving to be quite useful this season so far

Edited by SgtMajorBuzz

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I haven't heard one of the strongest points yet about the Yeuyang yet??   (((((It has Radar)))). we run Yueyangs together with great results

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31 minutes ago, devilsasassin said:

I haven't heard one of the strongest points yet about the Yeuyang yet??   (((((It has Radar)))). we run Yueyangs together with great results

The radar is a wrinkle.  The lack of smoke makes her really vulnerable though.  Teams are still developing tactics to deal with it.  We had a really good night shredding YYs tonight.

Hurricane teams running 1 DD are almost all running radar YY at this time.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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7 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

The radar is a wrinkle.  The lack of smoke makes her really vulnerable though.  Teams are still developing tactics to deal with it.  We had a really good night shredding YYs tonight.

Hurricane teams running 1 DD are almost all running radar YY at this time.

Then for a radar Yue Yang to work, the team’s focus fire and kite game MUST be on point. Yue Yang’s radar gets the enemy’s DDs or any CAs that are hiding behind it detected, Yue Yang fires Deep Water torps if needed to get the CA broadside to your CAs, preferably you would take a couple of Hindenburgs, or get them out of position. The Yue Yang can engage the DD if the risk is low. If the DD is removed, it means that DD can’t smoke its teammates. Albeit it makes the Yue Yang’s radar redundant. Afterwards, kite like crazy especially if you are out in the open. I don’t know why would you be out in the open but there is the possibility.

Edited by Dictonary

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Z-52 and Gearing are what the top teams are playing- as predicted :)  Nice to see the top teams from "Play Like A Pro" going Z-52/Gearing and sometimes Shimi.

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1 hour ago, Reckun said:

Z-52 and Gearing are what the top teams are playing- as predicted :)  Nice to see the top teams from "Play Like A Pro" going Z-52/Gearing and sometimes Shimi.

This is incorrect.

 

Yueyang /Gearing are the most played by alot.

3rd you have Shima (rare to see one)

4th Z-42 (very rare to see one)

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1 hour ago, Spyde said:

This is incorrect.

 

Yueyang /Gearing are the most played by alot.

3rd you have Shima (rare to see one)

4th Z-42 (very rare to see one)

The "Play Like a Pro" article highlighting 4 of the top teams says that you are incorrect.  It is Z-52, Gearing, and Shimi being played by the Typhoon clans. 

 

Let me direct you to the article:  https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/how-to-clans-1/

Edited by Reckun

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Source ? Are you talking EU ?  What top 4 clans ?

I'm at 148 battles this season already in the "Top Clans"   

 

I rarely see a Z-52...

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12 minutes ago, Reckun said:

The "Play Like a Pro" article highlighting 4 of the top teams says that you are incorrect.  It is Z-52, Gearing, and Shimi being played by the Typhoon clans. 

 

Let me direct you to the article:  https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/how-to-clans-1/

 

Those ship choices for DD's are outdated from maybe very early season.

Meta is full of Radar YY/Smoke YY and Gearing now for the last 3-4 weeks.

 

It also has people from EU in there.. that is a different Meta than NA.

 

 

There is only 2 teams in NA Hurricane that Successfully run Double DD right now with that.   

 

 

 

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Radar Yueyang is the hardest to deal with, as it can light up an enemy DD while remaining outside of spotting range for all but the initial detection. It also counters smoke and can be used in conjunction with a DM, Moskva or Minotaur to chain radar in situations where it is not expected. 

The tradeoffs are torpedo hits on destroyers and the ability to smokescreen under certain kite situations, which I think are outweighed by the advantages of radar. 

Most of the double-DD builds I have seen use at least one radar Yueyang, coupled with a Gearing, Z-52 or Shima depending on what they are planning to do.

Edited by MaxL_1023

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