1,478 [HINON] renegadestatuz Members 7,656 posts 9,539 battles Report post #1 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) Edited February 5, 2018 by renegadestatuz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
12,534 [SALVO] Crucis Members 28,156 posts 42,578 battles Report post #2 Posted February 5, 2018 So, from the looks of those raw stats, we have yet another nation that gets to have premium DDs that mirror the normal game play of their navy, while the USN gets stuck with nerfed premium DDs that have weak torpedo armaments and are incapable of mirroring the normal game play of their navy. Sounds like some fine anti-USN (at least anti-USN DD) bias to me. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
6,776 [SIM] SkaerKrow Members 6,307 posts 10,286 battles Report post #3 Posted February 5, 2018 Glad to see that the replacement for the T-61 is in the hopper. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3,369 [WPS] enderland07 Members 4,181 posts 9,619 battles Report post #4 Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Crucis said: So, from the looks of those raw stats, we have yet another nation that gets to have premium DDs that mirror the normal game play of their navy, while the USN gets stuck with nerfed premium DDs that have weak torpedo armaments and are incapable of mirroring the normal game play of their navy. Sounds like some fine anti-USN (at least anti-USN DD) bias to me. You think the USN dds are bad? Or what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,662 [CALM] YamatoA150 Beta Testers 6,838 posts 6,088 battles Report post #5 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Crucis said: So, from the looks of those raw stats, we have yet another nation that gets to have premium DDs that mirror the normal game play of their navy, while the USN gets stuck with nerfed premium DDs that have weak torpedo armaments and are incapable of mirroring the normal game play of their navy. Sounds like some fine anti-USN (at least anti-USN DD) bias to me. Still better than the Premiums the IJN was given since the days of Kamikaze/Atago, and still better than the abominable Asashio we'll be getting. In all seriousness though, it only has stock torpedoes, +1 km main gun range, -1 gun, slightly slower reload, and only slightly better concealment. This thing is almost a worse-than-line Premium ship with nothing unique to warrant purchasing her. Which is fine for those who want such ships, but it's currently not a seller or a must-have. Again, it's only been announced, so we can expect some changes closer to its release. Edited February 5, 2018 by YamatoA150 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
20 Slyv Members 128 posts 9,958 battles Report post #6 Posted February 5, 2018 So a nerfed Z-23.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4,169 [SYN] mofton [SYN] Members 9,313 posts 18,914 battles Report post #7 Posted February 5, 2018 Concealment is a force multiplier.... ...but this has very little force to multiply. I calculate she'll get 70,400 HE DPM - Kagero in contrast gets 91,800. The HE alpha is poor too. Z-23 was a lackluster gunboat, but this is worse, and with inferior torpedoes too? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,593 [CRMSN] Cobraclutch Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters 6,021 posts 4,739 battles Report post #8 Posted February 5, 2018 @renegadestatuz I do not for the life of me understand why they would take Z-39 over Z-32... Makes 0 sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
873 [SCCC] Peregrinas Members 3,181 posts 17,515 battles Report post #9 Posted February 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Slyv said: So a nerfed Z-23.... If they give this one German hydro, it might work out... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,478 [HINON] renegadestatuz Members 7,656 posts 9,539 battles Report post #10 Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said: @renegadestatuz I do not for the life of me understand why they would take Z-39 over Z-32... Makes 0 sense. You and me both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
12,534 [SALVO] Crucis Members 28,156 posts 42,578 battles Report post #11 Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, enderland07 said: You think the USN dds are bad? Or what? It's not a question of good or bad, per se. It's a matter of the fact that the Sims and Kidd don't play at all like the Mahan or Benson. The Sims and Kidd's play style simply doesn't match that of the Mahan or Benson. It's as simple as that. The Sims and Kidd can be wonder for what they are, but still be failures in my opinion because the way I see it, a "good" premium, a good trainer is a ship that mirrors the play style of their nation and type. One of the selling points of premium ships is that they're trainers. But how can you BE a trainer if the play style of the premium doesn't match that of rest of the regular line? Answer: you can't. 6 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said: Still better than the Premiums the IJN was given since the days of Kamikaze/Atago, and still better than the abominable Asashio we'll be getting. In all seriousness though, it only has stock torpedoes, +1 km main gun range, -1 gun, slightly slower reload, and only slightly better concealment. This thing is almost a worse-than-line Premium ship with nothing unique to warrant purchasing her. Which is fine for those who want such ships, but it's currently not a seller. Not necessarily. I'd argue that the HSF Harekaze is a "better" premium DD because it plays like an IJN DD, whereas the Kidd doesn't. The Kidd can't play like a high tier USN DD because it doesn't have the torpedoes to do so. It's just that simple. The true quality of a premium ships cannot be measured in isolation from the rest of its navy and ship type. They're supposed to be trainer ships. And how can you do that it you're not training its players in all the playing skills of that line? Look at it this way. Say that the Akizuki was never put in the IJN DD tech tree, but was turned into a tier 8 premium ship, essentially as is. Would it be a good premium IJN DD? I say not, because it would be such a vast departure from what IJN DDs are supposed to play like that it wasn't teaching the players anything useful. Furthermore, it would require a completely unique captain to be useful. It might be a great premium DD taken in isolation, but it would be a terrible IJN premium DD when you factor in the fact that it would be a wretchedly bad training ship for the IJN DD play style. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
185 Mala_suerte71 Members 489 posts 25,520 battles Report post #12 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Crucis said: So, from the looks of those raw stats, we have yet another nation that gets to have premium DDs that mirror the normal game play of their navy, while the USN gets stuck with nerfed premium DDs that have weak torpedo armaments and are incapable of mirroring the normal game play of their navy. Sounds like some fine anti-USN (at least anti-USN DD) bias to me. KIDD??? good guns, excellent AA, decent camo, good speed?? 4 torps its the only bad thing. Its an hybrid like USN line The Z39 looks fine, almost same concealment than z46, shorter torps, slow reload 150mm guns without benefits of some perks, AA undefined. A well rounded and balanced ship on paper IMHO, with his 150 mmto make him unique in some way at tier 8. Lets wait for some reviews. <o. Edited February 5, 2018 by Mala_suerte71 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3,369 [WPS] enderland07 Members 4,181 posts 9,619 battles Report post #13 Posted February 5, 2018 Weird. I find that both Sims/Kidd are well done because of what you just said. They are similar in theme to the overall line but have unique aspects which make them just different enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
5,860 [PVE] Kizarvexis Members 20,319 posts 13,642 battles Report post #14 Posted February 5, 2018 17 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said: Glad to see that the replacement for the T-61 is in the hopper. The hope the Z-39 Someday, doesn't suffer the fate of the T-61 Soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
12,534 [SALVO] Crucis Members 28,156 posts 42,578 battles Report post #15 Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, enderland07 said: Weird. I find that both Sims/Kidd are well done because of what you just said. They are similar in theme to the overall line but have unique aspects which make them just different enough. And I think that that's what make the poor premium USN DDs. high tier USN DDs are jacks of all trades, which can play the gunboat or the stealthy torpedo boat. Neither the Kidd nor Sims can play the torpedo boat because they lack the torpedoes to do so, whether it's due to utterly horrible torps (Sims) or not enough of them (Kidd). And what you're calling "unique", I call nerfs that destroy the essential character of high tier USN DDs and turned these two premiums into gunboats only. Some people may like playing USN DDs as gunboats. I prefer being able to play them as both gun boats and torp boats. And these two premiums are simply NOT jacks of all trades. They have only one trade. Guns. 7 minutes ago, Mala_suerte71 said: KIDD??? good guns, excellent AA, decent camo, good speed?? 4 torps its the only bad thing. The Z39 looks fine, almost same concealment than z46, shorter torps, slow reload 150mm guns without benefits of some perks, AA undefined. A well rounded and balanced ship on paper IMHO, with his 150 mmto make him unique in some way at tier 8. Lets wait for some reviews. <o. The Kidd's weak torp armament is a HUGE thing in my mind. Something not to be dismissed. To me, it turns what could be a very good premium USN DD into a premium DD that's only "good" when viewed in isolation from the rest of its navy's play style. Furthermore, you're ignoring the rest of what I said. Other navies aren't getting this sort of treatment. They're getting premium DDs that retain their navy's essential DD character, rather than having that character wrecked. The Kidd is a good premium DD taken in isolation. BUT it is NOT a good premium USN DD trainer!!! (Ditto for the Sims.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3,369 [WPS] enderland07 Members 4,181 posts 9,619 battles Report post #16 Posted February 5, 2018 There are many boats which don't really reflect their national "theme" in premiums. USN destroyers are hardly unique in this regard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4,471 [SALVO] Dr_Venture Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters 6,610 posts 7,430 battles Report post #17 Posted February 5, 2018 I'm done buying crap premiums that bring NOTHING to the table. I felt like I got burned with Roma and I could have spent the dough on premium camo, or skipped to Moskva. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
185 Mala_suerte71 Members 489 posts 25,520 battles Report post #18 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Crucis said: And I think that that's what make the poor premium USN DDs. high tier USN DDs are jacks of all trades, which can play the gunboat or the stealthy torpedo boat. Neither the Kidd nor Sims can play the torpedo boat because they lack the torpedoes to do so, whether it's due to utterly horrible torps (Sims) or not enough of them (Kidd). And what you're calling "unique", I call nerfs that destroy the essential character of high tier USN DDs and turned these two premiums into gunboats only. Some people may like playing USN DDs as gunboats. I prefer being able to play them as both gun boats and torp boats. And these two premiums are simply NOT jacks of all trades. They have only one trade. Guns. The Kidd's weak torp armament is a HUGE thing in my mind. Something not to be dismissed. To me, it turns what could be a very good premium USN DD into a premium DD that's only "good" when viewed in isolation from the rest of its navy's play style. Furthermore, you're ignoring the rest of what I said. Other navies aren't getting this sort of treatment. They're getting premium DDs that retain their navy's essential DD character, rather than having that character wrecked. The Kidd is a good premium DD taken in isolation. BUT it is NOT a good premium USN DD trainer!!! (Ditto for the Sims.) Ok, this is a Z39 post, last thing I write about others DDs. Germany not have a single premium DD so, USN > KM Pan Asian not have deep water torps so, USN = or > PA Russian have HORRID turret rotation, make premiums DDs useless with high tiers captains, their need especialized perks to play better so, USN = or > RU English DDs, well, only one and no so good, AND NOT HAVE DDs in the tech tree line so, USN > 0. And a last question, to play the Kidd, what perk you really need to change? you can play ur kidd with the fletcher captain or need another one on it? Your "Anti-USN Dds" its not truth IMHO. No offense. o>. Back on topic, z39 have a little better ruder shift too. But that turret rotation, man. Edited February 5, 2018 by Mala_suerte71 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
43 xovian Members 236 posts 1,692 battles Report post #19 Posted February 5, 2018 Will be getting this one :) Still working to get z-23, skipping the rest of the line after t-22 (dont know why so many people hate that ship, has great concealment, even if its main guns do suck). So this will be a done deal purchase for me, been waiting for a German DD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,662 [CALM] YamatoA150 Beta Testers 6,838 posts 6,088 battles Report post #20 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Crucis said: Not necessarily. I'd argue that the HSF Harekaze is a "better" premium DD because it plays like an IJN DD, whereas the Kidd doesn't. The Kidd can't play like a high tier USN DD because it doesn't have the torpedoes to do so. It's just that simple. The true quality of a premium ships cannot be measured in isolation from the rest of its navy and ship type. They're supposed to be trainer ships. And how can you do that it you're not training its players in all the playing skills of that line? Look at it this way. Say that the Akizuki was never put in the IJN DD tech tree, but was turned into a tier 8 premium ship, essentially as is. Would it be a good premium IJN DD? I say not, because it would be such a vast departure from what IJN DDs are supposed to play like that it wasn't teaching the players anything useful. Furthermore, it would require a completely unique captain to be useful. It might be a great premium DD taken in isolation, but it would be a terrible IJN premium DD when you factor in the fact that it would be a wretchedly bad training ship for the IJN DD play style. Harekaze is not counted considering she will not be available for purchase once the Collaboration ends. She's a pretty great ship, yes. Just needs her rudder shift and HP buffed to Kagero's top hull. If she was to be made permanently available, then yes, she'd count as one decent IJN Premium. But considering that WG said she will be retired from sales once the Collaboration ends, and unobtainable from SCs or Gift Boxes, she's not a true, permanent rotation Premium like Gallant, or Lo Yang, or Anshan, or Kidd, etc. Her likely replacement could be Yukikaze, which did see a shift to 100mm DP mounts before being handed over to Taiwan, though she also gained 127mm working in tandem, which would make for an interesting issue considering WG doesn't like doing mixed main armaments. As for Kidd, it seems to have great success working in tandem with other DDs for some surprise AA or focusing more on gunship duties, so while it cannot quite play like regular high tier USN DDs, it can still gunboat almost as well. True, it's not a good trainer, but on the other hand, it makes an easy transition for those already familiar with the USN DD line, just requiring more focus on gunboating rather than relying on torpedoes as much. Trainer ships are fine. But at T8, players are expected to already have some skill of the line (or be convenient potatoes padding and populating the high tiers). So in this case, I have to disagree in regards to Z-39. At T8, she should at least be as competitive as her line equivalent. Which she is, but only barely. That in and of itself is fine, as few will bother buying her, but it's a convenient buy-in to high tier play for the unknowing casual player. However, as she is currently, she is not a Premium actually worth investing into. Moreso when you consider the cost of Premiums past T6; and the expectations that they should be worth their value. Doesn't have to be OP like Kutuzov or Belfast, but it should at least be competitive and capable of standing on its own, either with a unique element that changes the usual gameplay dynamic, or straight-up equal or slightly better performance than their line equivalent. Heck; just give Z-39 Lo Yang's 5.5km Hydro and match the Z-23's gun RoF, and the trade-off of one gun and weaker torps offset her potent Hydro coverage and slightly better concealment. Perfect for working alongside another allied DD or stealthy CL, in a manner similar to Kidd or Lo Yang. In Akizuki's case, I disagree she wouldn't be a good Premium IJN DD (or maybe agreeing with part of your statement that she would be). As a Premium, she likely would have gone with her guns unnerfed rather than nerfed to fit the line, which would already make her a solid menace and desirable Premium; borderline OP even, even if she requires a specialized IJN DD captain. And it's exactly because she is a Premium with a unique gameplay style that would make her a worthwhile investment. She wouldn't be a good trainer, that much is true, but at T8 or T9 (however a Premium Akizuki would have been balanced), one should already have some knowledge and skill in DD play, with the rest of it just being familiarization with a new Premium different from the rest of the related line. Much like how Atlanta for a long time was different enough from the USN cruiser pack to require her own dedicated captain (which remains true until the USN CL line split). Ultimately though, I guess it's a matter of interpretation. My idea of a decent Premium past T5 are ones that are equal to their line counterpart at minimum (sister-ship like Eugen), or slightly stronger due to either bring a unique gameplay element/gimmick (ex: Kutuzov or Atago), or better stats in some areas and slightly worse in others (Ex: Tirpitz or DoY, yes DoY is decent IMO; just needs some minor buffs to something other than main guns). My idea of an investment-worthy Premium includes the requirement that the ship not be a downtiered stock hull either. Can be uptiered with appropriate balancing/gimmicks, but not downtiered and artificially nerfed to fit. Edited February 5, 2018 by YamatoA150 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
534 [WOLFD] Carl [WOLFD] Beta Testers 5,072 posts 1,514 battles Report post #21 Posted February 5, 2018 Also IMO Harakaze kinda has an issue in that IMO they didn't do enough to make her various hulls distinct. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
6,114 [FOXEH] Umikami Banned 14,364 posts 23,359 battles Report post #22 Posted February 5, 2018 50 minutes ago, enderland07 said: You think the USN dds are bad? Or what? I don't want to speak for @Crucis, since he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself, but what I got from his post was USN PREMIUM DD's play differently than their silver counterparts, which I find to be true with Smith, Sims, and Kidd, the 3 USN premium DD's. NOT that the USN DD's are bad. (Just their ridiculous and unrealistic gun arcs.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
534 [WOLFD] Carl [WOLFD] Beta Testers 5,072 posts 1,514 battles Report post #23 Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, Umikami said: (Just their ridiculous and unrealistic gun arcs.) You mean their realistic and acurratte gun arcs. It's been tested, their acurratte. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1,329 Canadatron Members 5,206 posts 3,461 battles Report post #24 Posted February 5, 2018 T-61 sends it's regards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
6,114 [FOXEH] Umikami Banned 14,364 posts 23,359 battles Report post #25 Posted February 5, 2018 21 minutes ago, Mala_suerte71 said: Germany not have a single premium DD so, USN > KM No, more like Russian game not wanting any good gunboat DD's but Russian ones (as the developers toss T-61 in the trash can). 23 minutes ago, Mala_suerte71 said: Pan Asian not have deep water torps so, USN = or > PA I honestly don't even understand this statement. 24 minutes ago, Mala_suerte71 said: Russian have HORRID turret rotation, make premiums DDs useless with high tiers captains, their need especialized perks to play better so, USN = or > RU No, more like Russian DD stay at (safe) range and totally dominate USN DD with horrid gun arcs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
