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Stalingrad

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I am sure some of us here that like Russian cruisers are from world of tanks. That game was decent to any extent , but to those who played clan wars over there wasn't it a waste to put all that time in and then get nothing from it. I am coming at this from the standpoint of you guys competed hard and after you got that top tank it got powercreeped. Don't you all see that Stalingrad here will be powercreeped and that it is pointless for Wg to divide us. I'd rather see them put out a better prize for you all such as a big stash of dubloons and premium time. Or a whole bunch of free xp. By staying silent on Stalingrad your saying it's fine we want Stalingrad to be a slaughtergest of clans to be the very best. Yet you lose due to powercreep. I won't hide that fact that I am not pro-clan all of the time. I am just curious if your all just going to let Wargaming tear you all apart and exhaust you for something that will be powercreeped. Wouldn't a bunch of premiums be better or a bunch of dubloons and free xp? History repeats itself as they say afterall.Make Stalingrad it's own line just a thought.

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What I don't understand is this will be the first Battle Cruiser in WoWs actually being a cruiser and its a reward, Now I am not complaining about it being a reward, what I am complaining about is that it doesn't favour players with time constraints. Now I am a good WoWs player, but I have a full time job and a family and I have limited time to play, I cant make clan wars so how does a player like me in my situation get a ship like this, a ship I have been looking forward to as well as the Alaska class? It is what it is and I don't feel angry at it, to put it simple it sucks I cant have the chance to get one :fish_viking:

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They are offering a tier 10 cruiser as a prize to the people that can put in the time and have the effort and skill to earn. I find now problem with this at all and look forward to earning mine.

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2 hours ago, Thunder_Guts said:

What I don't understand is this will be the first Battle Cruiser in WoWs actually being a cruiser and its a reward, Now I am not complaining about it being a reward, what I am complaining about is that it doesn't favour players with time constraints. Now I am a good WoWs player, but I have a full time job and a family and I have limited time to play, I cant make clan wars so how does a player like me in my situation get a ship like this, a ship I have been looking forward to as well as the Alaska class? It is what it is and I don't feel angry at it, to put it simple it sucks I cant have the chance to get one :fish_viking:

WG heard you. From the news article on WoWs homepage about Stalingrad -

Not the Clan Battles type? Don’t worry! Stay tuned for a new opportunity to add Stalingrad to your Port.  

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23 minutes ago, Khafni said:

WG heard you. From the news article on WoWs homepage about Stalingrad -

Not the Clan Battles type? Don’t worry! Stay tuned for a new opportunity to add Stalingrad to your Port.  

Okay, I don't remember seeing this this morning :cap_wander: but that's better to hear, I really appreciate it when the take time & real world life into consideration :cap_win: 

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I personally liked the idea of a ship that is a reward for such tournaments only. Reason for that being that I think it‘s only fair to those who dedicated a lot of time into the event to get a special and unique prize.

If the reward was only some doubloons, then it wouldn‘t be unique. If it was an underpowered Premium then it wouldn‘t be worth the time invested.

That doesn‘t leave an awful-lot of options. Either it‘s a special permanent camoflage that not only looks unique but also gives some economical benefits, or it‘s a premium ship. That this Premium shouldn‘t suck is obvious.

Now Stalingrad will probably be a very strong ship, and my current prediction is that she‘ll even be too strong. But for me that‘s not the issue. I‘d be fine with her being completely average at T10, no problem at all.

But please, I want something that I can look at and say 'I earned this'. And that may or may not be the case with Stalingrad, judging by WG‘s latest announcement.

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1 hour ago, SireneRacker said:

I personally liked the idea of a ship that is a reward for such tournaments only. Reason for that being that I think it‘s only fair to those who dedicated a lot of time into the event to get a special and unique prize.

If the reward was only some doubloons, then it wouldn‘t be unique. If it was an underpowered Premium then it wouldn‘t be worth the time invested.

That doesn‘t leave an awful-lot of options. Either it‘s a special permanent camoflage that not only looks unique but also gives some economical benefits, or it‘s a premium ship. That this Premium shouldn‘t suck is obvious.

Now Stalingrad will probably be a very strong ship, and my current prediction is that she‘ll even be too strong. But for me that‘s not the issue. I‘d be fine with her being completely average at T10, no problem at all.

But please, I want something that I can look at and say 'I earned this'. And that may or may not be the case with Stalingrad, judging by WG‘s latest announcement.

I don't expect any option to get Stalingrad will be easy. It will probably be just a challenging, in a different way, as earning her through Clan Battles. WG will make having her mean something I am sure.

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2 hours ago, Khafni said:

I don't expect any option to get Stalingrad will be easy. It will probably be just a challenging, in a different way, as earning her through Clan Battles. WG will make having her mean something I am sure.

I had this hope, but then I remembered the ARP missions and how they got easier every time. For the first ships you really had to bleed. And then the last set which rewarded everything was basically equal to the preceeding set which only gave you Takao.

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21 hours ago, Thunder_Guts said:

What I don't understand is this will be the first Battle Cruiser in WoWs actually being a cruiser and its a reward, Now I am not complaining about it being a reward, what I am complaining about is that it doesn't favour players with time constraints. Now I am a good WoWs player, but I have a full time job and a family and I have limited time to play, I cant make clan wars so how does a player like me in my situation get a ship like this, a ship I have been looking forward to as well as the Alaska class? It is what it is and I don't feel angry at it, to put it simple it sucks I cant have the chance to get one :fish_viking:

I agree with you.

It would be better to set the requirement to be winning 90 typhoon league games in total rather than 30 wins each season. This way you can just squeeze in time to play every now and then and slowly progress to your goal.

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My problem is that Stalingrad, and for that matter Kronstadt are NOT CRUISERS!

 

I could reclassify the Iowa as a destroyer escort not going to change what she is though...  Both are BB/BC.. every naval historian on earth classes them as such even the Russian ones, more importantly under international treaties they would be classed as them and the "cruiser" name would be seen as just another example of Soviet bad faith and lying.

And as a Scharnhorst owner I am frankly pissed... Russian bias.. and crappy design confirmed.

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Hey

Have no fear; it looks like it will be out of reach more most people since it looks like a reward ship and not a premium.  I think it's an awesome ship even without Russian bias.

 

Pete

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20 hours ago, BobTDwarf said:

My problem is that Stalingrad, and for that matter Kronstadt are NOT CRUISERS!

 

I could reclassify the Iowa as a destroyer escort not going to change what she is though...  Both are BB/BC.. every naval historian on earth classes them as such even the Russian ones, more importantly under international treaties they would be classed as them and the "cruiser" name would be seen as just another example of Soviet bad faith and lying.

And as a Scharnhorst owner I am frankly pissed... Russian bias.. and crappy design confirmed.

But they are cruisers. Just like people argue Alaska should be a cruiser instead of BB. We could shoehorn them to T8 or T7, but they just aren't BBs. They don't have the same guns, nor the armor. Even a Fuso could obliterate the Stalingrad from 15km away because his belt is so weak, the ship is so large and sluggish, and WG balances the Russians with massive citadels. Even if their insane HP pool tanks it, they still stand to lose half or more. Is Alaska a battle cruiser? No...it's a CB. Large Cruiser. CA is Heavy Cruiser, the Des Moines. Stalingrad and Kron are CBs. 
Because a battlecruiser incorporates heavy BB armor with speed and decent firepower. The only true BCs ingame are the Hood and Amagi. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are infact full on Battleships. Period. Kongo-class battleships are FBB, Fast Battleships, just like Iowa-class. 
The Stalin and Kron are just really oversized cruisers. By all accounts, they're wasted designs that seem powerful at first, but are really just wastages of tonnage. They can't function as a battleship and real heavy cruisers can do the same job with less tonnage. 
Aswell, if you even looked at the stats, you'd see all you saw was sticker shock. Sure they have a ton of HP, stronger guns than Moskva, and a 230mm belt. That armor is better than any other broadside belt on a CA ingame. But still worse than the similar sized BBs. 
Guess what? The bow and every single extremity are made of 25mm armor, including the deck. She's a [edited]punchbag who will eat crapangled to HE and BB caliber AP, and will get deleted due to massive citadel if broadside. Their agility is also crud, with 15s ruddershift, large turning radius, and a detection radius that is better than Moskva but still worse than the Iowa, Montana, NC, and all RN BBs. The only thing those ships have going for them is a massive HP pool and guns that can penetrate battleship citadels a little easier than Moskva and to further ranges. They only have Repair Party, Damage Control, Defensive Fire, and Spotter/Fighter float plane. IIRC Kronstadt even has the October Revolution DamCon which means limited use according to a YT video.
So no, stop crying wolf. Your Scharnhorst can citadel this thing. Your Scharnhorst can bounce their shells easily when angled.  It's Musashi that's worse. 
Russian Bias? Every Russian CL and CA is known for being easy to blow up. They have strong base stats, but you touch them once and they get deleted. That's how the RU line rolls. 
Compare it to the RN BB line that gets everything and an impossible to hit citadel bar the Hood and Nelson.  Even a Bismarck can easily bully a Kron or Stalingrad by simply closing the distance. Especially if she gets in secondary range, she'll crapon it. These cruisers are built to pad the damage counter of the enemy team. 
 

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Hey

Tell that to my Roon or Hindenburg.  They have taken out many a much stronger Battleship who failed to kill me first.  Never underestimate a cruiser and a decent cruiser player who knows his ship. My personal best score is in my Hindy and second best is in my Roon, and not a BB.

 

Pete

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8 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

Tell that to my Roon or Hindenburg.  They have taken out many a much stronger Battleship who failed to kill me first.  Never underestimate a cruiser and a decent cruiser player who knows his ship. My personal best score is in my Hindy and second best is in my Roon, and not a BB.

 

Pete

Yeh sure hindy is great with good captain. But 1v1 long range stalin will win. It has higher shell damage, russian dispersion, higher  fire chance, somewhat close reload time (hindy has lsightly more rpm), longer rane, flatter trajectory and also heavier armor that can absorb some german he and certain spots.

1v1 mid range. 

This is where hindy shines. Hindy could start doing massive aage to stalingrad however it will be same vice versa since both ships have miserable rudder shifts.

1v1 short range. Hindy is getting below 10km of stalin. If stalin is kitting away it is able to run away effectively from hindy since it is faster. Stalingrads ap can devastate the hindy if it shows its side at this point. And if it does show its side it willbe to launch torps at stalin at which both will be dead. 

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9 minutes ago, RiverTheIdiot said:

Yeh sure hindy is great with good captain. But 1v1 long range stalin will win. It has higher shell damage, russian dispersion, higher  fire chance, somewhat close reload time (hindy has lsightly more rpm), longer rane, flatter trajectory and also heavier armor that can absorb some german he and certain spots.

1v1 mid range. 

This is where hindy shines. Hindy could start doing massive aage to stalingrad however it will be same vice versa since both ships have miserable rudder shifts.

1v1 short range. Hindy is getting below 10km of stalin. If stalin is kitting away it is able to run away effectively from hindy since it is faster. Stalingrads ap can devastate the hindy if it shows its side at this point. And if it does show its side it willbe to launch torps at stalin at which both will be dead. 

Hey

Hindy is very susceptible to long range gun fire and I have gotten deleted on a couple of occasions at 15-17 km range.  Close the distance and she can do amazing damage as a Conqueror found out at 5km, and I used guns only for over 67K damage on him.  But even still; I would like to see the Stalingrad in game, after all, it's something different and that's what we want is variety.  Bring on the Stalingrad but the way it sounds like they are going to do the release, many will not be getting it unlike if it was a premium for sale in store.  


Pete

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On 2/8/2018 at 9:47 AM, Seniorious said:

But they are cruisers. Just like people argue Alaska should be a cruiser instead of BB. We could shoehorn them to T8 or T7, but they just aren't BBs. They don't have the same guns, nor the armor. Even a Fuso could obliterate the Stalingrad from 15km away because his belt is so weak, the ship is so large and sluggish, and WG balances the Russians with massive citadels. Even if their insane HP pool tanks it, they still stand to lose half or more. Is Alaska a battle cruiser? No...it's a CB. Large Cruiser. CA is Heavy Cruiser, the Des Moines. Stalingrad and Kron are CBs. 
Because a battlecruiser incorporates heavy BB armor with speed and decent firepower. The only true BCs ingame are the Hood and Amagi. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are infact full on Battleships. Period. Kongo-class battleships are FBB, Fast Battleships, just like Iowa-class. 
The Stalin and Kron are just really oversized cruisers. By all accounts, they're wasted designs that seem powerful at first, but are really just wastages of tonnage. They can't function as a battleship and real heavy cruisers can do the same job with less tonnage. 
Aswell, if you even looked at the stats, you'd see all you saw was sticker shock. Sure they have a ton of HP, stronger guns than Moskva, and a 230mm belt. That armor is better than any other broadside belt on a CA ingame. But still worse than the similar sized BBs. 
Guess what? The bow and every single extremity are made of 25mm armor, including the deck. She's a [edited]punchbag who will eat crapangled to HE and BB caliber AP, and will get deleted due to massive citadel if broadside. Their agility is also crud, with 15s ruddershift, large turning radius, and a detection radius that is better than Moskva but still worse than the Iowa, Montana, NC, and all RN BBs. The only thing those ships have going for them is a massive HP pool and guns that can penetrate battleship citadels a little easier than Moskva and to further ranges. They only have Repair Party, Damage Control, Defensive Fire, and Spotter/Fighter float plane. IIRC Kronstadt even has the October Revolution DamCon which means limited use according to a YT video.
So no, stop crying wolf. Your Scharnhorst can citadel this thing. Your Scharnhorst can bounce their shells easily when angled.  It's Musashi that's worse. 
Russian Bias? Every Russian CL and CA is known for being easy to blow up. They have strong base stats, but you touch them once and they get deleted. That's how the RU line rolls. 
Compare it to the RN BB line that gets everything and an impossible to hit citadel bar the Hood and Nelson.  Even a Bismarck can easily bully a Kron or Stalingrad by simply closing the distance. Especially if she gets in secondary range, she'll crapon it. These cruisers are built to pad the damage counter of the enemy team. 
 

No.. just no.  A battlecruiser is a ship with BB sized guns with lighter armor to achieve greater speed.  In terms of torpedo protection both of these are closer to BB levels than Alaska who is much closer to a CA.  Now in terms of guns?  Both will have base dispersions better than the adjusted dispersion of Scharnhorst after fitting aim system mod 1.. Which really is funny since Krons guns were never actually built let alone fired and Stalingrads were built but as far as I am aware never completed, and Scharn is one of the most accurate BBs In history tied with the longest hit on target with Warspite; difference being Scharn was using optical fire control and Warspite radar.  So yeah a bit biased there.  It will be even worse if they have Kron with the last design, the one where steel was actually cut and hulls were actually captured in various degrees of completion:  She was to be armed with the 380MM guns of the Bismarck.  Guns were ordered, built and paid for but never delivered.

in terms of doctrine a BC is capable of standing in the combat line though not as effectively as a BB.  Though Kron will be substantially more resistant to catching fire than Scharn even with armor as thin as Scharn in spots:  She gets the T8 and T9 bumps to fire coefficient.  

Both of them could stand in the line, and would be as effective as the RN BC's at Jutland.  German BC's went with a more comprehensive armor scheme and lighter guns to achieve the same goal.  They are in either event CAPITAL ships.. in the case of Stalingrad she is as effectively armored as lower tier BBs.

 

As to citadels of RN BB's?  Well yeah they really humped the bunk there when they decided to go full on arcade and abandoned any pretext of historical accuracy... unless they have changed the definition of what causes the increased Alpha from a cit.. previously that was hits on the boilers, turbines and main battery magazines.. in which case they GD better adjust Neptune and Minotaur since the center hump in the midship armor covers the exact same portion of the boiler!

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5 hours ago, BobTDwarf said:

No.. just no.  A battlecruiser is a ship with BB sized guns with lighter armor to achieve greater speed.  In terms of torpedo protection both of these are closer to BB levels than Alaska who is much closer to a CA.  Now in terms of guns?  Both will have base dispersions better than the adjusted dispersion of Scharnhorst after fitting aim system mod 1.. Which really is funny since Krons guns were never actually built let alone fired and Stalingrads were built but as far as I am aware never completed, and Scharn is one of the most accurate BBs In history tied with the longest hit on target with Warspite; difference being Scharn was using optical fire control and Warspite radar.  So yeah a bit biased there.  It will be even worse if they have Kron with the last design, the one where steel was actually cut and hulls were actually captured in various degrees of completion:  She was to be armed with the 380MM guns of the Bismarck.  Guns were ordered, built and paid for but never delivered.

in terms of doctrine a BC is capable of standing in the combat line though not as effectively as a BB.  Though Kron will be substantially more resistant to catching fire than Scharn even with armor as thin as Scharn in spots:  She gets the T8 and T9 bumps to fire coefficient.  

Both of them could stand in the line, and would be as effective as the RN BC's at Jutland.  German BC's went with a more comprehensive armor scheme and lighter guns to achieve the same goal.  They are in either event CAPITAL ships.. in the case of Stalingrad she is as effectively armored as lower tier BBs.

 

As to citadels of RN BB's?  Well yeah they really humped the bunk there when they decided to go full on arcade and abandoned any pretext of historical accuracy... unless they have changed the definition of what causes the increased Alpha from a cit.. previously that was hits on the boilers, turbines and main battery magazines.. in which case they GD better adjust Neptune and Minotaur since the center hump in the midship armor covers the exact same portion of the boiler!

I don't think you understand the fact that because these are listed as cruisers, they automatically have a lower base dispersion. This is game balance now, not actual definition. 
Scharnhorst getting tighter dispersion would make her terribly OP. That ship faces Omahas and Clevelands and stuff like Shchors and Myoko frequently, who are just free citadels. 
Secondly, you've got your accuracy statistics wrong. At least, misunderstood. Scharnhorst AND Bismarck's guns were very accurate, they were able to easily acquire a solution and get on target. The problem was, those guns weren't very precise. In part due to the KM inability to make the barrels themselves closer together, and as factor to the high velocity and low weight of the shells, the precision of fire wasn't very good. Accurate? Yes. Precise? no. 
Accuracy is hitting a target with an arrow 100m away with ease. Precision is hitting that target in the same place, every time, without fail. 
If Kron and Stalin were listed as BB's they'd get dispersion just like Scharnhorst no doubt.

Also, calling Scharnhorst armor thin is ignorant. The belt is extremely thick. Her turtleback laughs. Her extremity armor is comparable to her T7 counterparts and she takes decent HE damage purely because German ships have tons of superstructure to farm for it. Scharnhorst has relevant armor to her competitors. Scharnhorst has the best speed among them too, bested only by her sister Gneisenau and Hood. 
Yes, Kron will be more resistant to catching fire......but Kron is also larger and has thin 25mm armor all over the place. Aswell, she's in a place where she meets mostly 203mm  armed cruisers and the RN BB HE. She will eat HE damage for days and be constantly farmed. They can't tank. In their area, the BBs all have 100k+ HP pools, heavy armor, and often 9 to 12 guns from 406mm to 460mm. In the face of those ships, Kron and Stalin are posers. They don't have the armor, they don't have the gunpower, they don't have the heal, they don't have the same AA. Montana and Yammy will laugh at them trying to size up and fight like a normal T9-10 BB as those small caliber guns bounce off. Then they overmatch the bow and deck for free citadels.  Even Iowa at Tier 9 has similar stealth, better gun penetration,  better overmatch capability, better AA, over 5km better gun range,  same speed, close ruddershift times. Kronstadt has a 25mm Bow!  Hipper has a better bow than that. 380mm guns will eat the Kron. Compared to FDG, and the difference goes to 420mm against the 305mm guns, plus turtleback, better bow armor, better AA,  Better gun range, better broadside armor, better Hydro, better secondaries, ....I don't need to keep this up do I? She's incomparable to all T9 BBs. Same as Stalingrad, incapable of actually matching up properly. They have the HP pool and 'Bigger' guns......than cruisers....but they are low-class BBs otherwise. Battleships are supposed to make use of high penetration and overmatch mechanics to overwhelm armor. But Kron and Stalin can't. All they have is flat trajectory and good penetration, just like Moskva. But they aren't really that strong in that either, the BBs are still stronger in gunpower. They can't overmatch bully the cruisers, they can only farm broadside armor. At the same time, they'll get farmed themselves. From 20km away by other Tier 9s like Iowa, Musashi, and also X's like Yamato, Montana, and GK. Kron can't even fire back at them, and his deck will get lolpenned.


Honestly I'm just amazed Conqueror hasn't been hit with a nerf bat. The only ones I see die are those that are dumb enough to not give their heal time or give broadside for way too long to Montana and Yammy. 

Now you see the problem though. Those ships don't match up to the T9 BBs well enough to be called one. They lack every single aspect needed to actually tank and exude presence.  A Yamato or Montana would put fear into my Moskva when it shows up even 16km away and angled, but if a Stalin or Kron shows up I'll just laugh as he tries to do damage and simply out dpm him with HE and citadel with AP. 
They're certainly cuts above all the cruisers too though. This is the issue, it's a grey area. Which is why it's taken so long to get Alaska despite the constant baying and whining. They're too much cruiser and not enough BB. 
Imagine what happens the first time one of those tries to turn around in front of a Hindenberg smart enough to load up AP? He's going to get wrecked. A dozen AP shells with a 5,900Alpha and flat trajectory means citadels for days and over 20-30k+ HP gone in an instant. And when he does turn around and try to disengage, the 1/4 pen of that German HE on their thin extremity armor with a dozen shells being shot out will rip away chunks of HP every time while rolling that RNG wheel for fires like a top. There's nothing he can do to avoid it. 
Against the DM they were supposed to hunt? At range, on broadsides sure. But Moskva and Hinden do that too. Sub 16km and angled? 
They can't overmatch DM. They sure as hell won't out DPM it either. The DM can just load HE, and even it's 1/6th HE will still pen, and it'll just be HE spamming chunks until the KronStalin gets tired and tries to run, but then the DM will rapidly change to AP and farm him midturn. Playing smart and not giving broadside totally makes them pointless. 

No, they're not 'just cruisers'. No, they're not 'battleships' either. 
But they have to go somewhere...
 

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Alright I had this thought after reading these comments why not Stalingrad be clan wars exclusive prize for 3 months and then put it at 2mil or more free xp after that. That way each party feels like they earned there way to Stalingrad and have some exclusivity.

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I would still argue these ships are closer to Battleships than cruisers, though I agree they are somewhere between the two; ideally, WG should split the BB line into full BB's and BC's/CB's. Ships like the British Renown and German O class would fit well into the line that way.

Also, is there much of a difference between a large cruiser and a battle cruiser? I believe the Amagi was to (historically) have belt Armour only slightly thicker than Alaska

Edited by EmperorsGlory

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Stalingrad is getting only Ap shells to play with. The token system has vanished from Wargaming discussions in public and no new q and a's have been done on the Reddit forums in over three months. Maybe it's time I looked more into clans.

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Oh this is a clan battle reward ship? One of the great cancers from WoT finally coming over to this game I guess. Always hated them making good, fun looking vehicles and locking them behind clan stuff < 1% of the players will ever get. Just make clan wars give absurd amount of dubloons to the winners instead of this :/

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It's a powerful ship.  I've been watching some videos and I'm impressed.  Flamu made a good point in his video with its nose armor being thick enough to be able to tank fire that other cruisers would only dream of tanking.  And he demonstrated just that.  Add on top of that it's very armament, speed, and healthy hp pool, it's fills a very powerful anti-cruiser role.

But what I also noticed is that all these videos are being played by very good players, and any ship is reasonably good in the hands of a good player.  In the real world, the Stalingrad is going to be eaten alive by real battleships.  And since cruisers in WoWS are balanced to have very high DPM, it's going to melt under pressure like any cruiser will.

Like all "Cruiser Bullies" built during WW1 and WW2, they are superb ships...until they face battleships.  And Stalingrad is no different.

18 hours ago, Lunarhawk said:

Oh this is a clan battle reward ship? One of the great cancers from WoT finally coming over to this game I guess. Always hated them making good, fun looking vehicles and locking them behind clan stuff < 1% of the players will ever get. Just make clan wars give absurd amount of dubloons to the winners instead of this :/

That's kinda how games work, sir.  There always has to be a progressive element out of your reach to keep you moving forward.  This is the equivalent of a super rare item in an MMO, and keeps fanboys like us dreaming.

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20 minutes ago, Ranari said:

That's kinda how games work, sir.  There always has to be a progressive element out of your reach to keep you moving forward.  This is the equivalent of a super rare item in an MMO, and keeps fanboys like us dreaming.

MMOs almost never have stuff locked behind tournaments like that, it's usually a raid or something that is always there and never goes away (barring timed holiday events - which stuff is usually easy to get during) and honestly is way easier to get I think than winning a clan battle season in boats

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1,152 battles

Are clan battles really all that different than raids?

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