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Phawn70

Roma...with IFHE?

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Greetings...

I'm asking has anyone who has the Roma or know if IFHE will help the 90mm secondaries at all besides just starting fires as is?

They are pretty decent AA guns but I would like to try to squeeze everything out of them if possible.

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Considering the range on the Roma's secondary guns I don't think its worth spec'ing into a max secondary build or even wasting 4 points on IFHE. 

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Would you consider the 90mm useless then?

The german 8.8s can hurt...smh

Edited by Phawn70

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I'm unfamiliar with the calibur of the roma secondaries, but i doubt that the ifhe added penetration would even matter in most scenareos. I would get aft over ifhe on roma.

 

But that' just my opinion. You are the one that will play it :)

Wish you the best of luck!

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To answer this from the perspective of game mechanics:

Currently the 90mm guns will penetrate any armor plating up to 14mm. So at T8 you will deal basically no Shell damage with those guns at all. Cruisers and Battleships are 100% immune to those Shells, and Destroyer hulls are also too thick. Not sure on Destroyer superstructures.

Adding IFHE will buff your HE Penetration to 19mm. That means that you can now penetrate the superstructure of T8 and higher Battleships and Cruisers, as well as the hulls and superstructures of Destroyers.

 

From a practical Point of view you would have to invest so many skill Points and modules to make the Secondaries work to an extend (AFT, Manual Secondaries and IFHE, so 12 Commander Points. On top of that the Secondary Armaments Module) that it's probably not worth it. The Secondaries on the Bismarck will still heavily outclass Roma's. Just Forget them, and rather invest into your main guns, concealment and survivability.

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TLDR:  IFHE isn't really useful for Roma, Secondaries or Main Battery shells.  IMO.

 

Secondaries Build on Roma is a very dicey thing.  I'm not saying good secondaries on her will be useless, as there are times where I had to run down DDs / duel them with Roma.  Still, I did it relying on her AP for great damage on DDs.  But there's also most circumstances where I'd avoid getting into secondaries range with Roma anyways, i.e. against other BBs.  If you get into such short ranges you are committing heavily and disregarding Roma's stealth and ability to keep out of arm's reach on her terms.

 

Still, there are times where I actively sought a knife fight with Roma against other BBs if the situation was right for it.  Even then, Secondaries were never a big factor against another BB.  I was using Roma's ability to speed into areas where other BBs cannot cover as well, their turrets struggle to keep up, and my own turrets quickly turn and plant AP into them.  Those kinds of fights are very short and violent and secondaries were never an important factor in damage dealt.

 

Not to mention Roma's HE shells are so bad that even the damage you do with them aren't worthwhile if they do penetrate.

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I do use the stealth of the ship to the point of abuse. What I'm dealing with is the mele point of battle (if I'm still alive) is that i have dealt with any foes I'm my relative area and with my conceilment start to hammer other targets within 13k and causing pain. I seem to have found the natural enemy of the Roma with the NC and Alabama. 

They come in with thier 16 and cause great loss to your HP...they move  in danger close and find the citidel... my secondaries are going off at 5k... this is the aspect i would want to correct...I would love to stay at over 10k in range and hammer... hit and fade...i know it well. I was trying to find some reasonable solution to that issue.

Roma by far is quite the fun platform!

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I have the Roma and I have better AA, than secondary 18 points currently. and I really think that their 90 mm are bad, they are not very good, I am currently testing with it by tanking, and many of its cannons do not come out. luck .

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To answer your question. 

 

Yes. 

 

IFHE on Roma will boost your 90mm guns to pen 19mm of armor. 

Like many BBs (that arent German) this means that by taking IFHE, it only helps in certain instances. 19mm will allow them to do direct damage to DDs, cruiser superstructures, and BB superstructures. This means they will get 100% chance to get their fire chance roll. (Aka, if they have 8% fire chance, a pen grabts a dhell a 8% fire chance) Without IFHE, they will always shatter. This reduces your fire chance by 50% per shell. (Ie, if you habe 8% normally, a shatter is only 4%) 

This is why german ships with built in IFHE set fires more often, cause they pen more with HE, but their fire damage is lower as a balance to it. 

By taking IFHE, this also reduces your normal fire chance by 3%, so a 8% is really 5%... a pen gets you 5% and a shatter 2.5%. This is why taking DE along with UFHE is advised since it bumps up the chance by 2%, so you only lose 1% when combining the two skills. 

 

Confused? Good. :)

That said, yes...I do run a secondary/survivability build in Roma. Which is more "reasonable" on ships like the roma, montana, and similarly non-secondary specialist ships. 

I use, PT, EM, AR, SI, BoS, AFT, IFHE. (Allows direct damage with lower fire chance)

Or

PT ER, EM, AR, SI, BoS, DE, AFT. (Higher fire chance, but shells shatter...but you do set more fires than with IFHE, and fires do more damage long term than direct danage) 

Its up to you on what you want. Direct damage is best against DDs, increased fire chance is best on everything else. 

 

If you do not take CE on your captain, you must take it on the ship upgrades and visa versa for BBs. No CE upgrade on the ship or captain makes the ship too visible. 

 

This will allow you a good tank build, but allow your secondaries to be viable. 

Alternatively...if you want ultimate stealth but must have those secondaries. You CAN get away with:

PT, EL, AR, BoS, IFHE, AFT, CE. 

The downside is you trade out SI...but get better conceal, and the useful EL skill to catch DDs. 

Ive done both ways. Both work, and are quite fun. 

But dumping more than AFT and IFHE is too much on a gimic since your main power comes from the romas ability to tank, big guns, and concealment. 

I only advise BFT, AFT, IFHE, MS on ships that are meant to be secondary heavy, such as bismarck, tirpitz, massachusetts. 

 

 

Hope this helps! 

Edited by Bigs_Destroyer_of_Worlds

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This is a pretty darn old thread but I want to add to my earlier reply at the time why IFHE is no good for Roma.

 

For the purpose of the 381mm guns

No IFHE

381mm / 6 = 63.5, or 64mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.

Without IFHE you can already pen some of the thicker exterior plates out there not counting very thick armor belts.  You can already pen 50mm decks German BBs and certain Cruisers have.  You can pen the 57mm-58mm decks of Tier IX-X IJN BBs.  You will be able to pen the 60mm decks of Tier IX Sovetsky Soyuz and X Kreml.  You'll already have more than enough HE Pen against Cruisers and Destroyers.

 

For the 90mm secondaries

No IFHE

90mm / 6 = 15mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.  High Tier DDs can tank this shell, much less thicker armored Cruisers and Battleships.  This even fails to pen the 19mm superstructure of High Tier Battleships.

With IFHE

(90mm / 6) x 1.3 = 19.5 or 20mm of armor needed to defeat this HE shell.  You can now pen DD hulls, excluding Khabarovsk's Super Magical 50mm armor.  The vast majority of Cruisers will still laugh it off.  25mm is common hull plating for Cruisers, some have 30mm sections on the sides.  You will be able to pen the 19mm superstructure of High Tier Battleships.

 

Here's also the problem with relying on these 90mm guns in a knife fight against another Battleship.  Your shots, especially with the range of these secondaries, will gravitate to the armor belt / center of the ship, waterline level.  All AI gunnery aims for this, even bots with their main batteries.  The 90mm guns with IFHE will be hitting the super thick armor belts of her peers, or maybe the upper hull sides which are at least 32mm.  Very few shots will disperse enough to hit the superstructure for HE Pens.

 

The mediocre range is the problem why even with IFHE Secondaries Build the 90mm Secondaries fail.  The shells don't arc up long in the air and down, landing around the deck and SUPERSTRUCTURE.  Go in Training Room with a Secondary Build with a mediocre secondaries range BB like North Carolina, see where the shells land even at max range, compared to the longer secondaries range BB like Massachusetts, Bismarck, Alsace, etc.  With the longer ranges of say, 9km, 10km+, the shells arc up and then down.  The shells disperse enough to hit the deck and superstructure.

 

Roma when she fights another BB in such ranges, it is all about her 381mm guns to end the fight.  Those 90mm guns may get lucky setting a fire, two if you're really lucky, but you're looking to end the fight as quickly as possible.

 

Edit:  For anyone wondering where I got the formula to calculate HE Pen from, here is the source.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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HazeGrayUnderway has a strong point.

 

While yes IFHE can slightly increase utility... the fact that they can only reach a max range of 7.2km, this means they arent good to rely on.

Especifically if you do take manual secondary skill. The reason is that all secondaries try to hit the water line on targets... an area the Roma's secondaries can't pen no matter what against cruisers and bbs. 

So... weirdly, its better to actually only take BFT+AFT if you really want secondaries on Roma. By not being hyper accurate, this actually helps since they have a higher chance to miss the waterline and hit elsewhere on the target. 

I tweaked my build to AFT+DE and it works just fine. 

Sadly, Roma will never have the secondary power its T8 counterparts have.

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On 5/20/2019 at 1:23 AM, Bigs_Destroyer_of_Worlds said:

To answer your question. 

 

Yes. 

 

IFHE on Roma will boost your 90mm guns to pen 19mm of armor. 

Like many BBs (that arent German) this means that by taking IFHE, it only helps in certain instances. 19mm will allow them to do direct damage to DDs, cruiser superstructures, and BB superstructures. This means they will get 100% chance to get their fire chance roll. (Aka, if they have 8% fire chance, a pen grabts a dhell a 8% fire chance) Without IFHE, they will always shatter. This reduces your fire chance by 50% per shell. (Ie, if you habe 8% normally, a shatter is only 4%) 

This is why german ships with built in IFHE set fires more often, cause they pen more with HE, but their fire damage is lower as a balance to it. 

By taking IFHE, this also reduces your normal fire chance by 3%, so a 8% is really 5%... a pen gets you 5% and a shatter 2.5%. This is why taking DE along with UFHE is advised since it bumps up the chance by 2%, so you only lose 1% when combining the two skills. 

 

Confused? Good. :)

That said, yes...I do run a secondary/survivability build in Roma. Which is more "reasonable" on ships like the roma, montana, and similarly non-secondary specialist ships. 

I use, PT, EM, AR, SI, BoS, AFT, IFHE. (Allows direct damage with lower fire chance)

Or

PT ER, EM, AR, SI, BoS, DE, AFT. (Higher fire chance, but shells shatter...but you do set more fires than with IFHE, and fires do more damage long term than direct danage) 

Its up to you on what you want. Direct damage is best against DDs, increased fire chance is best on everything else. 

 

If you do not take CE on your captain, you must take it on the ship upgrades and visa versa for BBs. No CE upgrade on the ship or captain makes the ship too visible. 

 

This will allow you a good tank build, but allow your secondaries to be viable. 

Alternatively...if you want ultimate stealth but must have those secondaries. You CAN get away with:

PT, EL, AR, BoS, IFHE, AFT, CE. 

The downside is you trade out SI...but get better conceal, and the useful EL skill to catch DDs. 

Ive done both ways. Both work, and are quite fun. 

But dumping more than AFT and IFHE is too much on a gimic since your main power comes from the romas ability to tank, big guns, and concealment. 

I only advise BFT, AFT, IFHE, MS on ships that are meant to be secondary heavy, such as bismarck, tirpitz, massachusetts. 

 

 

Hope this helps! 

This is my current build. http://prntscr.com/nxsnza

 

 

Edited by Kestrel_Falcon

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