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FallenZulu

thinking of grinding to Shimikaze, advice needed

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Title implied, thinking of grinding to the Shimikaze, something about a stealth torp ship appeals to me. But I desire advice from their captains

 First off is it worth the grind? I hear mix messages about the ships performance within the games meta.

Second what is the grind like, is it a fun line to go down or is it a pain? What is the line's highlights?

Third what is the general play style of the ship? Stupid question to ask about a pure torpedo boat I know.

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Be very careful of your positioning, them 20k torps that you first get are very easy to do team damage with. 

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I am currently grinding the KM DD's I suck in them but from what I have heard about all the bad nerfs that are handed to IJN DD's maybe rethink your  grind.

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7 minutes ago, Cruiser_Fiume said:

Don't grind to the Shimikaze.

There. All better.

what would you say to be their biggest issue?

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I think it's a fun enough ship to play.  Understand it's the weakest T10 dd so you're not going to be winning a lot of games in it.  But the torps and decent detection can be fun when you play against potatoes.  However, any good player with a brain should be able to manage a Shima very easily.  You make your money on idiots, there are no fair fights for a Shima.

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I haven't really touched most of the DDs but from what I gathered,

IJN: As far as I know; bad guns, alright smoke, easiest to spot torpedoes but highest damage, long reload times (increase as you go higher in tiers) though i'm sure that's standard across all lines, damage relies on people not paying attention or just good placement. But when they hit, oh boy do they hit.

KM: Decent mix up of AP damage (I don't know much about their guns or HE) and torpedoes. Can shoot in odd angles in some. Requires some thinking.   

Pan-Asian: Good smoke cool down, torpedoes can't hit DDs but are hardest to spot and give people little time to react, decent guns that allow you to fend other DDs off in a pinch but its still a potentially hard fight. 

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13 minutes ago, FallenZulu said:

what would you say to be their biggest issue?

They don't contest caps well, which, when you get down to it, is about 90% of a 'useful' destroyer's job at tier 10. 

Don't get me wrong: Shimikazes are DAMNED scary to battleship captains. The problem is that you have to either A) get lucky, or B) unduly hazard yourself in order to sink those BBs (what with their 10km secondaries, and such). Moreover, as the game progresses, the team with the most surviving destroyers enjoys and increasingly pronounced advantage, regardless of whether they are torpedo boats or gunboats.

The key, though, is getting to that point... which means killing the other guys' destroyers first. And Shimikazes don't contribute much to that crucial equation - they're good for roughing up the big boys, but far less competent at scoring kills against fellow DDs. Which means, as a result, that in terms of the crucial early-match DD vs. DD engagements, Shimikazes are sort of a hole in the team. And if the enemy force's Gearing or Khab or whatever survives, he's going to hunt you down and wreck you.

Edited by Cruiser_Fiume
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1 hour ago, FallenZulu said:

Title implied, thinking of grinding to the Shimikaze, something about a stealth torp ship appeals to me. But I desire advice from their captains

 First off is it worth the grind? I hear mix messages about the ships performance within the games meta.

Second what is the grind like, is it a fun line to go down or is it a pain? What is the line's highlights?

Third what is the general play style of the ship? Stupid question to ask about a pure torpedo boat I know.

The primary issue w/ the Shima is after the detection nerfs, a competent T10 captain (especially if equipped w/ Situational Awareness or hydro) will be able to maneuver & dodge Shima torps, especially if fired from longer range - the gaps get huge).   

Situationally, tho, the Shima is still a good area denial ship and using 12km torps is pretty fun.   If you tend to get games w/ camping BBs & chokepoints, the Shima is pretty fun from mid ranges (i.e. don't use the 20 km torps).  

Personally, I enjoy the German, USN and Pan-Asian DD lines more because I like to play a more balanced DD that can gunfight if needed.  The German torps are light on damage, but you learn to use the DOT and quick reload to mitigate this.   The Pan-Asians (other than you having to use only your guns or teammates to kill other DDs) are lethal due to detection range to most large ships due to their "no chance to evade" detection range.

Here's a link that compares the features of the IJN tech tree line.

(From WOWS Enjoyment - List of Game Improvement/Mechanics Articles and Guides)

IJN DD Main Line vs. Alternate Line (post-Split)

If you're trying to make a decision on which IJN DD line to go up from the T5 split, this response offers a brief summary of each ship in the IJN DD lines from T5-T10 (T8 in Alternate line).   Play points, strengths and weaknesses of each ship are noted to help you make your decision.

 

Edited by hangglide42

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People like to hate on the IJN DD line, but that’s mainly because they’ve been nerfed repeatedly. They’re not trash, or even bad.  However their playstyle is quite limited and that’s not too appealing to people.

Basically, IJN DDs are torp boats that use their best in-class concealment and hard hitting torps to 1) torp enemies from undodgeable angles, and 2) light up other enemies and force them to react.

Their drawback is their torps are quite easy to dodge when not coming in from the side.  While other DDs also struggle with this, it’s really apparent with the IJN line.

A quick breakdown:

Isokaze - fun tier 4 torp boat with forgiving torp reload.

Mutsuki - Quick boat, punchy torps. But triple tubes reload slower and are not forgiving.  Also what guns?

Fubuki - 3x3 torp goodness.  10km reach. Does her best.

Akatsuki - Fubuki on steroids, 3x3 torps and 6 guns make her the closest to an all-round DD the IJN has.

Kagero - rather unforgiving quad launchers.  Gets Type 93 torps with 10km range.  Best concealment for her MM makes her vision queen.  Can use torpedo reload booster instead of smoke.

Yuugumo - 2x4 torps.  Passable guns, excellent torp selection.  Can use torpedo reload booster instead of smoke.  Only outspotted by Kagero.  Some say she’s the highlight of the line.

Shimakaze - 3x5 torps.  Reload for days.  Guns on par with Yuugumo, worse detection.  Fastest IJN DD in high tier.  Cannot use torpedo reload booster.  She gives up a lot for that legendary 15  torp wall.

 

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the ship is stealthy, the torps are not. Especially the 20km ones, but even with the 12km ones you might get 1 hit from 15 (unless you suicide derp or get a really good island ambush in).

also you will be support in cap at best as you cant duel with anything and radar/hydro/planes will send you scurrying for the map edges

 

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If you want a stealth torp boat, id recommend the pan Asian dd line. Sure, you can't torp other destroyers, but against cruisers, battleships, and carriers you are a better torp boat than the japanese due to low torpedo detection, faster torpedo reload, and access to American gun systems (on like 6/10 of them) to deal with other destroyers. 

 

Just my reccomandation though, ultimatey it's your experience and play style that makes the boat what it is for you.

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Thanks for the input everyone

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7 minutes ago, FallenZulu said:

Thanks for the input everyone, so I should instead grind the Pan Asian then?

Pan-Asia certainly seems solid.  However not being able to torp DDs is a pretty large drawback.  They definitely aren’t pure torpedoboats.

Honestly speaking Id recommend pan-Asia AND the IJN DDs (at least up to tier 6).  By that time you should see the differences in playstyle and know which you like.  Also IJN DDs have the best stealth for tier, and knowing how to use that and how to beat it are very important for any DD play.

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There have been some informative replies about the mechanical side of things I would add that it is largely up to your personality and what you enjoy.

 

If you enjoy patiently  planning, understanding tactics and stalking your enemy the IJN DDs are tremendously rewarding.  It does take time to learn and get the best out of them though.

You have the Fujin, take some time and play say 25 games in her (if you can have a CE captain in her).   After a while you will gain an understanding of where ships go on each map and how to best intercept them. As your knowledge grows your torp runs will improve and you will begin to assert more and more dominance over the battle.  If you get the hang of it those devastating strikes become like a drug.

However if by the end you are left frustrated I would say they aren't for you, as the ships face more challenges as you go up the tiers.

 

As for the Shima herself she is still a good ship and worth the grind, but if you are anything like me the Yugumo is the highlight of the line.

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The low tier IJN destroyers are incredibly fun to play.  You get stealth torping ability very nearly from the beginning (you'll have to upgrade the torps on Umikaze), a pretty quick torpedo reload, and lots of players sailing battleships for the first time to feast on.

I'm not very familiar with the current mid-tier IJN destroyers as I completed that part of the grind prior to the line split, but from what I remember there's a good deal of frustration there.  Your still have good stealth and your torpedoes still hit very hard, but the relatively high detection ranges on Japanese torpedoes make hits pretty difficult to come by.  The good news is that this will force you to become a much better destroyer player in order to keep grinding; the bad news is that you're going to have a lot of games with negligible damage while you work out the kinks & figure out how to get inside the minds of your victims.

I actually enjoy Shiratsuyu.  You get somewhat workable guns, but more importantly access to that torpedo reload booster coupled with very good stealth.  This is kind of your warm-up to Shimakaze...your torpedoes are still pretty easy to dodge, but the dual quad-launchers coupled with that reload booster allows you to put 16 fish in the water at once (vs. 15 with Shimakaze).  While the vast majority of those torpedoes are still going to miss, putting that many downrange all but guarantees at least a couple hits when fired against grouped enemy ships, which is precisely the targets you want with Shima.

Kagero and Yugumo are two more frustrating ships, but are at least frustrating ships with excellent concealment.  With these two you really have to master getting in as close as possible (while maintaining stealth) against your targets, which is the only way you're going to consistently land torpedo hits.  TRB is still an option here, but when you're running into T10 competition on a regular basis smoke might be a better option.  FWIW, Yugumo used to be one of my favorite destroyers before radar & hydro started popping up in every match...holding station 6km away from an enemy BB while your torpedoes reload does get the blood pumping.

I like the Shima, and I do think she's worth the grind.  People are correct in saying that she's the weakest overall destroyer at T10, but getting one good torpedo spread on target will delete pretty much any battleship in the match, and instantly vault you to a 100k damage game.  She also works pretty well with many of the maps you'll typically see at T10, as that 15-unit torpedo soup (I'm appropriating that term) fired into a choke point or at a group of bow-on battleships can be devastating.  Yes, those torps can literally be seen coming from more than a mile away, but with so many of them it's difficult for even relatively agile battleships to dodge them all.  The downsides are that, like most IJN destroyers, her guns are not on par with other DDs at her tier, and you no longer hold a concealment edge against same-tier destroyers (and actually have a disadvantage against some lower-tier DDs which you'll see regularly). 

About the IJN destroyer guns...many people act like they're entirely useless, which is not true.  The slow rate of fire and even slower turret traverse rates mean that you're going to lose any "fair" gunfight you get into, but if you can get your first salvo on target with any consistency they can take a very nice chunk out of any other DD you see.  The trick is to limit those first salvos to scenarios where you're about to disappear behind an island, or to where that first salvo (or maybe two) will finish off the target.  Smoke firing is sometimes viable, but generally speaking not the best use of your time (between the slow reloads and the rapidly disappearing smoke, you're usually better off maneuvering into a better firing position for your next torpedo reload).

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Have Shima unlocked just lack the credits to buy her, my experience with the IJN DDs are a mixed bag

Mutsuki- Not awful but not many torps to throw out

Fubuki- Does her best and is damn good at it

Akatsuki- The most elephant of all DDs and does even better then Buki

Kagerou- Torps seem to be spotted as soon as you launch them, plus the radar cancer is strong at those tiers

Yuugumo- Better then Kag gunwise but the 8 torp limit is still an issue, plus radar cancer of course.

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3 hours ago, FallenZulu said:

Title implied, thinking of grinding to the Shimikaze, something about a stealth torp ship appeals to me. But I desire advice from their captains

Shimakaze with its 5.9 km concealment range (this is the best you can get with camo, commander skill and concealment module) is hardly stealthy compared to some of the alternatives. IJN torpedoes are easily spotted and therefore tend to miss often.  The advantage Shimakaze has is triple quintuple launchers which is sometimes enough to saturate an area with torpedoes which cannot be avoided even though they are spotted. Kagero and Yugumo are stealthy but this means they are one-trick ponies ... radar ship sails by and no more super-stealth for you because you are spotted from 9 km out.

If you want a stealthy torpedo boat in a line that features many OP ships at high tiers (where grind becomes real for other lines) you should consider USN DDs featuring likes of Benson and Fletcher. Gearing isn't that bad either.

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IJN could really use a torpedo detection buff: back to something reasonable like 1.1.  WG refuses to agree. 

 

It would be even better if they could switch torpedo depth on the fly like HE vs AP. Then you could have lesser damage torpedoes that hit everything, and DWT that hit non-DDs. 

Generally though, IJN also need to use their torps to kill DDs, and that doesn't work very well. 

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The guns aren't bad alpha wise, they hit quite hard, the problem is more so the turret speed, the slow reload I can deal with.

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14 minutes ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

The guns aren't bad alpha wise, they hit quite hard, the problem is more so the turret speed, the slow reload I can deal with.


I know it hasn't been very popular to do this until recently, but speccing your IJN DDs for guns actually fixes a lot of those issues.  While it doesn't seem like much on paper, taking EM and lets you actively dodge and fire back at pursuing DDs.  Combined with the IJN turret layout this makes you very strong when kiting.  The gun traverse will never be great, but they become more than sufficient for self-defense.  Great candidates are Yuugumo and Akatsuki.  Kagero can be worthwhile as well if you like to screen vs other DDs.

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I do like to use the short range torpedoes with torpedo acceleration on my shima every once and awhile, 6.4km torpedoes that go 81knts.  Its suicidal in anything other then island ambushes, sometimes suicidal even then, but when someone gets 15 torpedoes launched from that close going that fast....well lets just dodging is very iffy even for other DDs.

 Like others have said though Shima is more of a support DD since the IJN torpedo change, and the 12km torpedoes are probably the most used option (i use it the majority of the time myself), but they other options can be viable if frustrating to use, or down right hilarious when gimmicked like the short ranged ones with TA. 

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14 hours ago, FallenZulu said:

Title implied, thinking of grinding to the Shimikaze, something about a stealth torp ship appeals to me. But I desire advice from their captains

 First off is it worth the grind? I hear mix messages about the ships performance within the games meta.

Second what is the grind like, is it a fun line to go down or is it a pain? What is the line's highlights?

Third what is the general play style of the ship? Stupid question to ask about a pure torpedo boat I know.

Gearing's a comparable torp DD with much more flexible guns and better ship handling. Why torture yourself with IJN DDs.

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