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Cold_Beer839

What Balances the Z-52?

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We all know WoWs is about about nerfing and buffing to keep things balanced.  So, the Z-52 has smoke, hydro, torps that rival the best in the game, light cruiser grade guns, and pretty darn good armor.   How can any other DD's contend with that?  One-on-one there is no balance, he pops smoke then turns on hydro and rips you to pieces while you blindly fire into his smoke, or maybe you launch torps at his smoke and his hydro picks them up early allowing him to evade them easily.  If you are in any IJN DD it gets even uglier much quicker. 

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Z-52s torps have mediocre range and speed, and the smallest warhead of T10 torps. Z52s smoke is the absolute worst in tier. Z52 is fairly big, giving shells more time to arm for normal pen damage instead of overpen. She has very mediocre stealth and lacks the AA potential of Gearing or Grozovoi.

You specifically mention IJN DDs as being crap against a Z52, but you'll always out-spot a Z52 in an IJN DD, and if you engge a pure gunboat DD in a gun fight in a torpedo boat DD you're doing it wrong to begin with.

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It's kind of second best at everything.  Decent speed, but Shima and Khab are faster.  Decent guns, but Gearing fires faster, and Khab is a gunnery beast with 33% more guns.  Torpedoes are good and reload quickly, but Shima and Gearing have longer range and do more damage, although Shima's are harder to hit with due to excessive detection range and slow reload.  Z52 has a lot of hit points, but takes normal penetration damage from BBs.  The hydro is nice, but it has a range of 5.88km, and the Z52's detection radius is 6.1 if you have it maxed out in stealth builds and camo.  So, useful for negating smoke, but not as much for getting first eyes-on when scouting a cap.  Personally, I think it's got the best combination of trade-offs to make it the most consistently able to at least compete, with no glaring deficiencies.  But each of its competitors has its own form of kryptonite to use against it.

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In addition to what others have mentioned, Z-52 is basically a specialized cap fighter. She is really good at securing caps, but not as good at anything else. Of course part of the problem is that her only competitor for cap fighting, the Gearing, isn't a very good ship, and Gearing has been a mediocre ship for a very long time. Grozovoi and Khab can absolutely demolish 52 in a gunfight, but neither of those ships are good cap fighters, they are more mid and long range gunships. And of course Shima loses to any other DD that isn't IJN or Akizuki.

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39 minutes ago, Cold_Beer839 said:

We all know WoWs is about about nerfing and buffing to keep things balanced.  So, the Z-52 has smoke, hydro, torps that rival the best in the game, light cruiser grade guns, and pretty darn good armor.   How can any other DD's contend with that?  One-on-one there is no balance, he pops smoke then turns on hydro and rips you to pieces while you blindly fire into his smoke, or maybe you launch torps at his smoke and his hydro picks them up early allowing him to evade them easily.  If you are in any IJN DD it gets even uglier much quicker. 

You turn away out of his hydro range and wait for his terrible smoke to run out. I know many players will be shocked to learn this but you can in fact decline to engage the enemy when he has the advantage. 

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6 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

You turn away out of his hydro range and wait for his terrible smoke to run out. I know many players will be shocked to learn this but you can in fact decline to engage the enemy when he has the advantage. 

That's crazy talk, mister.

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53 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

You turn away out of his hydro range and wait for his terrible smoke to run out. I know many players will be shocked to learn this but you can in fact decline to engage the enemy when he has the advantage. 

That depends purely on the engagement. For example you meet him bow to bow and start turning and he eats your lunch while sitting back in smoke and watching your every toilet flush with his hydro.  And his guns will do the damage needed to hammer you under before you can get out of his hydro range.

Edited by Cold_Beer839

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4 minutes ago, Cold_Beer839 said:

For example you meet him bow to bow and start turning and he eats your lunch while sitting back in smoke and watching your every toilet flush with his hydro. 

Then you've been a complete idiot and not paid attention to when you spotted him almost a km before he spotted you, and were still way outside his hydro range.

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Just now, Lert said:

Then you've been a complete idiot and not paid attention to when you spotted him almost a km before he spotted you, and were still way outside his hydro range.

No need for name calling, keep it civil.

At any rate, it depends on the DD you are in as to whether he spots your first or vice versa.  And if you are both running with pinned throttles that 'almost a km' will close faster than you think.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

Then you've been a complete idiot and not paid attention to when you spotted him almost a km before he spotted you, and were still way outside his hydro range.

Well to be fair the Z-52 has 5.9km hydro range and a 6.1km detection range.  That is a very small margin of error, and if you are unlucky enough to stumble upon one head on you won't be able to react before he hydros you.

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Just now, Cold_Beer839 said:

No need for name calling, keep it civil.

At any rate, it depends on the DD you are in as to whether he spots your first or vice versa.  And if you are both running with pinned throttles that 'almost a km' will close faster than you think.

Advancing into caps stern-forwards sounds absolutely ridiculous but it's a safe way to contest points if you don't want to take a gunfight.

I only learned about this maybe a month or two ago.

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5 minutes ago, Cold_Beer839 said:

That depends purely on the engagement. For example you meet him bow to bow and start turning and he eats your lunch while sitting back in smoke and watching your every toilet flush with his hydro.  And his guns will do the damage needed to hammer you under before you can get out of his hydro range.

Did you run at a smoke cloud? Because what actually should happen is you both spot each other he starts slowing down and smoking you turn away and eat minimal damage while inflicting some damage in return while he can't pursue you without leaving his smoke and forfeiting that advantage. 

Really they can't bushwhack you like this unless you let them. The hydro and detection range on the Z-52 are very close to each other if not identical. 

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4 minutes ago, Cold_Beer839 said:

No need for name calling, keep it civil.

If you point out a hypothetical situation which relies on a total lack of situational awareness, I will call it out as such.

4 minutes ago, Cold_Beer839 said:

At any rate, it depends on the DD you are in as to whether he spots your first or vice versa.

Yep. And DDs which are outspotted by Z52 tend to outgun it, especially at sub 6km ranges.

4 minutes ago, Cold_Beer839 said:

And if you are both running with pinned throttles that 'almost a km' will close faster than you think.

Yep. True. And then he's as shocked as you are, and you still have your torpedoes.

Thing is, anyone can name a hypothetical situation where a given ship has the benefit, but if Z52 was really so awesome and great and didn't have weaknesses, it would be used in high end competitive play and sit higher than middle of the pack in WR and DPG.

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3 minutes ago, Lert said:

Thing is, anyone can name a hypothetical situation where a given ship has the benefit, but if Z52 was really so awesome and great and didn't have weaknesses, it would be used in high end competitive play and sit higher than middle of the pack in WR and DPG.

The reason the Z-52 is not used in competitive play is because its short duration smoke is not very well suited for team play, and its comparatively short ranged torpedoes make it more susceptible to be radared.  *By comparison the Gearing can comfortably torp from outside the radar range of every ship in the game and has longer lasting smokes.  

In terms of random performance, over the past two weeks the Z-52 has the 2nd best win rate of any tier 10 ship, only 2nd to the Yue Yang. 

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2 minutes ago, yashma said:

The reason the Z-52 is not used in competitive play is because its short duration smoke is not very well suited for team play, and its comparatively short ranged torpedoes make it more susceptible to be radared.

Yep. All weaknesses. Which is what OP was asking for.

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20 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

Advancing into caps stern-forwards sounds absolutely ridiculous but it's a safe way to contest points if you don't want to take a gunfight.

I only learned about this maybe a month or two ago.

Its actually a really good tactic, safe and efficient. Even better at the start of the game, when you dont have much intel about the enemy team. 

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Enters into the name calling section: Lert you are a back cat (and if I was mean I would say you are from Belgium).

Z-53 can be amazing in the right hands, but like every tier 10 destroyer if you do not play to its strengths life can go bad very quickly. I play my z-52 much more about cap contesting and then being the eyes of the fleet to spot. I try to never yolo in it. 

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1 hour ago, yashma said:

In terms of random performance, over the past two weeks the Z-52 has the 2nd best win rate of any tier 10 ship, only 2nd to the Yue Yang. 

Exactly what I'm saying: Z-52 has second highest win rate of T10 DDs compared to other DDs that have been around much much longer and been played and really mastered by some players.  If I'm not mistaken the Z-52 has yet to see a nerf, so out of the box the Z-52 is almost king of the hill.  The Yue Yang is another one that seems very strong and is nerf-less so far.

Edited by Cold_Beer839

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

Z52 is fairly big, giving shells more time to arm for normal pen damage instead of overpen.

That's a myth. If I'm in my Z-52 and I go up against another Z-52, HE works better instead of AP. Only against Gearings and Khabs does AP actually work very well; against everything else, use HE. At least, that's been my experience from both trying AP against Z-52s and having AP thrown against my Z-52 while I shoot HE in return.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

If you point out a hypothetical situation which relies on a total lack of situational awareness, I will call it out as such.

So we finally have a justified reason for name calling..........

 

Or maybe some folks just can't handle a debate.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cold_Beer839

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4 minutes ago, Peregrinas said:

That's a myth. If I'm in my Z-52 and I go up against another Z-52, HE works better instead of AP. Only against Gearings and Khabs does AP actually work very well; against everything else, use HE. At least, that's been my experience from both trying AP against Z-52s and having AP thrown against my Z-52 while I shoot HE in return.

First things first: you're not wrong.

however, being bigger - wider especially - will lead to more normal pens when taking Cruiser and Battleship AP - especially while angled - simply because there's more ship to go through, thus the shell spends more time in the ship, giving the fuse more time to finish.

Granted, this is not a huge factor, but it's still one.

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As an FYI a gearing and Z-52 running nose to nose with speed boost up throttle to the wall have less than a seconds warning between the Z-52 beings spotted and entering it's Hydro rnage. I'd need gearing trn time data from mouse and deceleration distance for the Z-52 to say what the approximate point of closest approach would be from there assuming the Z-52 slams on the brakes and starts smoking at a given range.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

Yep. All weaknesses. Which is what OP was asking for.

Well to be fair, the OP seemed to be asking specifically about how other DDs can counter the Z-52, or at least that's how I read it.  And honestly to that end, the only way to consistently beat a well driven Z-52 with another DD is to either catch it with its consumables down, or hope you have outside help. 

 

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