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sulghunter331

A Few Ideas For Consideration

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Whilst sailing around in my KGV, waiting to get into range of things to shoot at, I had some time to think of some ideas to help discourage camping/encourage closer brawls among BBs, whilst at the same time not making long range gunnery completely an untenable strategy. The following ideas are not really meant to exist together.

1st idea: Have spotting a target inside their base detection range yourself provide a minor bonus to dispersion, whilst shooting at targets spotted solely by another team mate incur a minor penalty to your dispersion. This way, there will be some encouragement for battleships, but also most ships in general, to close in so as to get the dispersion buff. I figured something along the lines of 10 to 15 percent may be sufficient, but obviously this is up for discussion. A stipulation for this would be that you must have a direct, uninterrupted line of sight to the target ship, so no islands or smoke screens can be in the way. An example would be as follows: My KGV has a base detection range of 14.6km, and with the relevant mods, skills, and paints, I've brought it down to12.5km. If a destroyer sneaks up and spots me, and his battleship friend, who is 16km away, shoots at me, will have the minor penalty to dispersion, as he is not spotting me himself. However, if he manages to close to less than 12.5km, or I fire and give away my position when the enemy battleship is less than 14.6km away, and he then shoots at me, he will then receive the dispersion buff. If an island is in the way such that he is able to fire over it, or that there is a smoke screen, but he is still within 14.6km, the enemy battleship will incur the penalty.

2nd idea: Have repeated volleys against the same target provide a stacking dispersion buff, with the spotting plane consumable increasing how much the buff stacks with each volley. Exactly what it says on the tin, shooting at the same target will allow for better dispersion, and having the spotter plane up will help. The stipulation would be that the first shot of the next volley will have to be fired within a certain time, at the same target, after the last shot of the previous volley. To prevent rapid fire ships from becoming laser accurate rail guns in no time flat, the dispersion buff from each volley is proportional to how long the reload is for the main guns, that is, an Atlanta will receive a far smaller buff than a Fuso would. For ripple fire on rapid fire ships, such as Atlanta, I don't really know, I've got no idea. The idea for this is that getting in close would help maintain the necessary target lock for this to work, but this would also allow long range gunnery to exist, and not be shoved to the side lines. If this is too strong, a stipulation could be added that the target lock must be maintained at all times to retain the dispersion buff. Breaking the target lock even once would reset the stack.

If you think this idea is good and should be implemented, if it's hot garbage that should never see the light of day, or if it needs adjustments, please leave any comments saying so. Please keep it civil.

 

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In theory this might be viable. Once fired  the range finders on your ship can calculate the better angles and maintain dispersion factors as long as your target hasn't slowed or turned causing realignment of your site.

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I like the first idea, and it has grounding in historical accuracy. Easier to aim your down your own sights yes?

The second idea discourages flexible and team oriented gameplay, and encourages camping and concealment abuse. Why would a BB give up it's accuracy to shoot a DD that just popped up? And why would anyone ever attempt to tank, as it just buffs the enemy faster than hiding? And any cruiser or DD above tier 6 is likely not to care anyway. Battleships are the only class that pray to RNG for their main battery outside of low tiers. And even, tier 3 cruisers already feel more reliable than some tier 10 BBs (admittedly volume of fire helps, a lot. Looking at you Bogy and Louis)

I remember hearing that German BBs get massively increased accuracy inside 4km, this concept could be applied to most BBs as a simple "effective range" suggestion. Easy for any player to understand, and perhaps more importantly, possible for any player to utilize.

Edited by X15
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8 minutes ago, X15 said:

I like the first idea, and it has grounding in historical accuracy. Easier to aim your down your own sights yes?

The second idea discourages flexible and team oriented gameplay, and encourages camping and concealment abuse. Why would a BB give up it's accuracy to shoot a DD that just popped up? And why would anyone ever attempt to tank, as it just buffs the enemy faster than hiding? And any cruiser or DD above tier 6 is likely not to care anyway. Battleships are the only class that pray to RNG for their main battery outside of low tiers.

I remember hearing that German BBs get massively increased accuracy inside 4km, this concept could be applied to most BBs as a simple "effective range" suggestion. Easy for any player to understand, and perhaps more importantly, possible for any player to utilize.

The second idea is more based around the idea that you either have to rely upon other team mates to spot the enemy for you, so that you can make the long range shots, or that you can move in yourself to a range that you can keep spotting the target yourself.

The destroyer situation. This is very dependent on the situation. Is the destroyer suddenly making an ambush torpedo run on the battleship, or is the destroyer 12 to 15 km away, just being annoying with it's popguns slinging HE?

As much as battleships may be fat stacks of armor and hit points, they are not the RPG archetypal tank, existing solely to soak damage so that the rapid fire DPS can exist long enough to matter before getting insta-gibbed by the enemy. That armor and durability is there so that battleships can fight other battleships, not to run around pounding cruisers and and destroyers into submission ( that was the job of heavy and battle cruisers).

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1. Yes, and it should apply to ALL types and classes of ships.

2. No, because after shooting at someone a while your aim should get better.

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What if we just add 100 silver to your replenishment costs, multiplied by your ship's tier, for each second that you spend with your throttle set to anything other than full speed ahead?

(I'm mostly kidding.  Mostly)

Edited by Harv72b

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3 minutes ago, sulghunter331 said:

The destroyer situation. This is very dependent on the situation. Is the destroyer suddenly making an ambush torpedo run on the battleship, or is the destroyer 12 to 15 km away, just being annoying with it's popguns slinging HE?

Either way, the destroyer is doing his job, and should not be penalized for that.

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18 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Either way, the destroyer is doing his job, and should not be penalized for that.

My point with this one was that with the first case, the destroyer suddenly becomes priority number one, and needs to be dealt with as such, whilst the second case, the destroyer is rather low on the priorities list, for a battleship any way. With either idea, the destroyer isn't being penalized, if anything, him forcing a battleship's hand and making him take shots at the destroyer instead of what ever target he was wailing on previously, especially under the second idea, would actually be a bit of an advantage.

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25 minutes ago, Umikami said:

1. Yes, and it should apply to ALL types and classes of ships.

2. No, because after shooting at someone a while your aim should get better.

With your second point, as good as one's aim may get, RNGesus ultimately decides upon each volley, whether to bless it with a tight pattern, or to give you the one-fingered salute and have the volley go everywhere except the target that you were shooting at. These ideas are meant to allow for the player to influence the RNG, albeit in indirect ways.

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13 minutes ago, sulghunter331 said:

The second idea is more based around the idea that you either have to rely upon other team mates to spot the enemy for you, so that you can make the long range shots, or that you can move in yourself to a range that you can keep spotting the target yourself.

The destroyer situation. This is very dependent on the situation. Is the destroyer suddenly making an ambush torpedo run on the battleship, or is the destroyer 12 to 15 km away, just being annoying with it's popguns slinging HE?

As much as battleships may be fat stacks of armor and hit points, they are not the RPG archetypal tank, existing solely to soak damage so that the rapid fire DPS can exist long enough to matter before getting insta-gibbed by the enemy. That armor and durability is there so that battleships can fight other battleships, not to run around pounding cruisers and and destroyers into submission ( that was the job of heavy and battle cruisers).

If anyone is shooting anyone other than a spotted DD they better have a bloody fantastic broadside shot. I think you underestimate the priority of a DD popping shots off from the second line. And the damage a single BB shell will inflict, especially if that DD makes the often (and unfortunately) true assumption nobody will actually bother shooting.

The dispersion buff over time is an edge rider's dream come true, and will only serve to increase the issues with tunnel vision and generally unhelpful or outright worthless passive play. Switching targets to punish mistakes, spread fires, or control movement, is an incredibly important aspect of this game. And telling new players they shouldn't do that is a terrible move.

And battleship's job in this game is actually crowd control, in two parts. They exist to instill a sense of threat into the enemy team, and to punish ships for ignoring that threat. This punishment is especially relevant when facing DDs and CA/Ls, and is the first part. The second is to provoke all enemy ships into forgetting their side of that coin. This is especially true vs enemy battleships. You want to control them with your existence, and let your team run free of charge. And you cannot do these things from 24km away trying to inflate an ultimately useless buff that's entirely negated by angling or a quick drop off detection or a dip behind an island. The armor is there so you can make things fight you instead of your teammates, just like the archetype.

Non RN BBs are a teamplay oriented class, not simply the counter to themselves.

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My German BBs say yes...Hydro...Insane 2ndaries...& an added main battery dispersion buff for chasing down those DDs whose torps won't be ready again for a long time because I just dodged them...Let's Do This...C'mon Guys...PLEASE...

 

2 hours ago, sulghunter331 said:

with the spotting plane consumable increasing how much the buff stacks

In actuality...spotting planes would be considered another source of spotting other than direct line of sight also (so should provide no bonus) as planes had to radio in their calculations just like other ships did.

 

Edit: I can't quite put my finger on why but I'm generally against this...but I also had a thought that if something like this was to be incorporated that it would only be able to apply to full volleys are all locked on the target...thus making it unviable for people camping trying to only fire a couple rounds meant to hit while hiding...but that wouldn't work because then you would be penalized for maneuvering between volleys...so I'm still lost on how it would work.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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11 hours ago, X15 said:

If anyone is shooting anyone other than a spotted DD they better have a bloody fantastic broadside shot. I think you underestimate the priority of a DD popping shots off from the second line. And the damage a single BB shell will inflict, especially if that DD makes the often (and unfortunately) true assumption nobody will actually bother shooting.

The dispersion buff over time is an edge rider's dream come true, and will only serve to increase the issues with tunnel vision and generally unhelpful or outright worthless passive play. Switching targets to punish mistakes, spread fires, or control movement, is an incredibly important aspect of this game. And telling new players they shouldn't do that is a terrible move.

And battleship's job in this game is actually crowd control, in two parts. They exist to instill a sense of threat into the enemy team, and to punish ships for ignoring that threat. This punishment is especially relevant when facing DDs and CA/Ls, and is the first part. The second is to provoke all enemy ships into forgetting their side of that coin. This is especially true vs enemy battleships. You want to control them with your existence, and let your team run free of charge. And you cannot do these things from 24km away trying to inflate an ultimately useless buff that's entirely negated by angling or a quick drop off detection or a dip behind an island. The armor is there so you can make things fight you instead of your teammates, just like the archetype.

Non RN BBs are a teamplay oriented class, not simply the counter to themselves.

Fair enough. I posted the ideas so that they can be reviewed. Evidently, the first idea has a better prospect than the second idea.

 

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Certain ships like Montana and Yamato have enough accuracy they should be excluded. Russian DDs have enough base accuracy they'll benefit little from it.

 

However, I can see this causing more trouble than seems worthwhile. Stealth builds are almost mandatory to survive in pvp, and if your MB accuracy depends on having competent DDs that light up red cruisers and BBs, that puts more pressure on everyone to "get even gudder." DD now has to outspot the reds, cruiser has to be a master of evasion, and BB now has to be closer than is usually wise to make use of the extra accuracy.

 

In short, allowing for extra accuracy is probably one way to make pvp more frustrating, as then it's a game of who makes the first mistake, is luckier with HE RNG rolls for roasting the ship, or is able to run away. This especially will penalize anyone playing BBs that are slow, particularly US BB T5-7 and UK BB T5-6, as they have to angle their armor (and in-game tutorials largely non-existent.

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13 hours ago, X15 said:

If anyone is shooting anyone other than a spotted DD they better have a bloody fantastic broadside shot. I think you underestimate the priority of a DD popping shots off from the second line. And the damage a single BB shell will inflict, especially if that DD makes the often (and unfortunately) true assumption nobody will actually bother shooting.

The dispersion buff over time is an edge rider's dream come true, and will only serve to increase the issues with tunnel vision and generally unhelpful or outright worthless passive play. Switching targets to punish mistakes, spread fires, or control movement, is an incredibly important aspect of this game. And telling new players they shouldn't do that is a terrible move.

And battleship's job in this game is actually crowd control, in two parts. They exist to instill a sense of threat into the enemy team, and to punish ships for ignoring that threat. This punishment is especially relevant when facing DDs and CA/Ls, and is the first part. The second is to provoke all enemy ships into forgetting their side of that coin. This is especially true vs enemy battleships. You want to control them with your existence, and let your team run free of charge. And you cannot do these things from 24km away trying to inflate an ultimately useless buff that's entirely negated by angling or a quick drop off detection or a dip behind an island. The armor is there so you can make things fight you instead of your teammates, just like the archetype.

Non RN BBs are a teamplay oriented class, not simply the counter to themselves.

I agree 100%. The issues I run into is teams unwilling to take advantage of the opportunities you create. 

I'll Check in my ss folder and see if I still have some examples from this last season of ranked. If I kept them it is literally me doing the exact same thing, as in anchoring a flank between caps with enough "threat" that i could not be ingored. In one my allies took advantage of it pushed through the cap had great angles to sink the red ships. In the other they hid in the cap behind an island. So I was focused down and then my team got flanked instead.

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I am not a fan of either idea.

1, not every ship should get that close. The battle cruisers and many cruisers for instance should hover a bit farther out so they have time to dodge incoming fire so they don't get deleted. Finding that sweet spot of close enough to do well but far enough to not get vaporized is a skill that needs to be encouraged not erased.

2, would be too much of a nerf to DDs and many cruisers who need their dodging abilities just to stay alive. If their dodging works less and less then then they would have incentive to play it safe and not do the spotting and capping that their team needs.

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