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VaygrEmpire

For CV re-work, just roll "Balance 2.0"

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Just like you did for WoWP, just roll Balance 2.0 and change everything so that CV can have its own space in the game. 

There's nothing to lose. Why, you ask?

 

 

 

 

 

There's no alternatives to play World War 2 based warship online game. Navyfield 2? pfff. Steel Ocean? meh. War Thunder? still in CBT and probably will even in 2019 (hell, maybe not even 2020. They barely have 2~3 destroyers set up in game). Sure, people will complain and probably spam forum as well as support tickets, but that's all they can do, because there's no alternative options. 

 

If you have to fix something, it's better to do it early then late. 

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3 minutes ago, VaygrEmpire said:

Just like you did for WoWP, just roll Balance 2.0 and change everything so that CV can have its own space in the game. 

There's nothing to lose. Why, you ask?

 

There's no alternatives to play World War 2 based warship online game. Navyfield 2? pfff. Steel Ocean? meh. War Thunder? still in CBT and probably will even in 2019 (hell, maybe not even 2020. They barely have 2~3 destroyers set up in game). Sure, people will complain and probably spam forum as well as support tickets, but that's all they can do, because there's no alternative options. 

 

If you have to fix something, it's better to do it early then late. 

 

So make World of Carriers? Or put in a CV mode like PvE, PvP, ranked, Ops? Would you play CVs vs bots? How would Balance 2.0 work please?

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3 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

 

So make World of Carriers? Or put in a CV mode like PvE, PvP, ranked, Ops? Would you play CVs vs bots? How would Balance 2.0 work please?

CVS auto detonate everything

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4 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

 

So make World of Carriers? Or put in a CV mode like PvE, PvP, ranked, Ops? Would you play CVs vs bots? How would Balance 2.0 work please?

The basic idea is a total rework of carriers in a change massive enough to turn the first digit on the version number.

...which is not going to happen for a long, long time...because WoWP was on its last legs when WG had to force 2.0 update while utterly ignoring the massive criticism from the player. WoWS is still going strong, there is no reason to turn the first digit on the version number to one...yet.

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33 minutes ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

CVS auto detonate everything

 

I would be a better CV player then. :Smile_teethhappy:

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4 minutes ago, pyantoryng said:

The basic idea is a total rework of carriers in a change massive enough to turn the first digit on the version number.

...which is not going to happen for a long, long time...because WoWP was on its last legs when WG had to force 2.0 update while utterly ignoring the massive criticism from the player. WoWS is still going strong, there is no reason to turn the first digit on the version number to one...yet.

 

I think removing manual attacks would make a difference in player skill imbalance, but I'm not experienced at CV play.

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29 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

 

I think removing manual attacks would make a difference in player skill imbalance, but I'm not experienced at CV play.

Watch out, Kiz.  With logical suggestions like that, you'll have all the unicum CV mains out to get you for daring to suggest anything that would make the game better at, OMG!!!!, their (selfish) expense!!!  Carrier play desperately needs to be dumbed down.  And no matter how much the foolish unicum CV mains say git gud or that they should try things to help everyone else get better, they're ignoring the objective reality that it wouldn't happen.  Casual players can't be bothered to put in the great amounts of time to become competitive CV players.  And the damned unicum CV mains are too friggin selfish to willingly accept that the most practical way to lessen the game between the average player and the unicum CV main is to dumb down the mechanics so that the great players can't leverage those mechanics as powerfully as they do today. 

The reality is that the current CV mechanics favor those who are willing and able to put in the time to become super highly skilled.  This needs to change.  Dumbing down the CV mechanics would mean that it would take less time and effort to be come a good CV player and would limit the degree to which the current great CV players could leverage CV mechanics to abuse anyone who isn't up to their level.  But when you suggest this, those unicum CV mains act all offended that you're punishing them for gitting gud.  Too damned bad.  Deal with it.  Time to level the playing field, suckahs!!!  :Smile_playing:

 

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Removing manual wont help you learn the WASD hack.

 

CV torps are ridiculously easy to dodge whether manually or automatically dropped.

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Watch out, Kiz.  With logical suggestions like that, you'll have all the unicum CV mains out to get you for daring to suggest anything that would make the game better at, OMG!!!!, their (selfish) expense!!!  Carrier play desperately needs to be dumbed down.  And no matter how much the foolish unicum CV mains say git gud or that they should try things to help everyone else get better, they're ignoring the objective reality that it wouldn't happen.  Casual players can't be bothered to put in the great amounts of time to become competitive CV players.  And the damned unicum CV mains are too friggin selfish to willingly accept that the most practical way to lessen the game between the average player and the unicum CV main is to dumb down the mechanics so that the great players can't leverage those mechanics as powerfully as they do today. 

The reality is that the current CV mechanics favor those who are willing and able to put in the time to become super highly skilled.  This needs to change.  Dumbing down the CV mechanics would mean that it would take less time and effort to be come a good CV player and would limit the degree to which the current great CV players could leverage CV mechanics to abuse anyone who isn't up to their level.  But when you suggest this, those unicum CV mains act all offended that you're punishing them for gitting gud.  Too damned bad.  Deal with it.  Time to level the playing field, suckahs!!!  :Smile_playing:

 

Take away manual attacks and the better CV player is still going to mop the floor with the worse one, because CVs basically have to deal with each other by themselves. 

Then no manual attacks also introduces the impossibility of trying to attack anyone in smoke. Basically, if the solution we're simple, it would have been done by now.

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3 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Take away manual attacks and the better CV player is still going to mop the floor with the worse one, because CVs basically have to deal with each other by themselves. 

Then no manual attacks also introduces the impossibility of trying to attack anyone in smoke. Basically, if the solution we're simple, it would have been done by now.

Para 1.  Yes, quite true, but the skill gap would be VASTLY reduced.

Para 2. Sentence 1: I'm sure that they could find a way to help with this.

Sentence 2: I disagree.  It's entirely possible that they've been wary of a simple solution for various reasons, like not wanting to tick off the unicum CV mains.  (I personally don't care if they're ticked off.  They're part of the problem and it's time to pay the piper!)  They may also be trying to be exceptionally careful about what they do, which is ok by me.  Shotgunning "solutions" to the CV problem into the game isn't a wise thing to do, though I strongly believe that dumbing CV mechanics down is absolutely the right way to go.

 

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37 minutes ago, MokrieDela said:

Removing manual wont help you learn the WASD hack.

 

CV torps are ridiculously easy to dodge whether manually or automatically dropped.

 

This isn't the problem.  The problem is the extreme skill gap between the unicum CV mains and the rest of the CV player population, due to the complexity of the CV mechanics.

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40 minutes ago, MokrieDela said:

Removing manual wont help you learn the WASD hack.

 

CV torps are ridiculously easy to dodge whether manually or automatically dropped.

 

 

 

 

Fake news.

Auto drops are easy to dodge, as are many player’s manual drops.   But the people who REALLY know what they are doing can make carrier dropped torpedoes impossible to dodge.

Fortunately there aren’t many of those around.

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Para 1.  Yes, quite true, but the skill gap would be VASTLY reduced.

Para 2. Sentence 1: I'm sure that they could find a way to help with this.

Sentence 2: I disagree.  It's entirely possible that they've been wary of a simple solution for various reasons, like not wanting to tick off the unicum CV mains.  (I personally don't care if they're ticked off.  They're part of the problem and it's time to pay the piper!)  They may also be trying to be exceptionally careful about what they do, which is ok by me.  Shotgunning "solutions" to the CV problem into the game isn't a wise thing to do, though I strongly believe that dumbing CV mechanics down is absolutely the right way to go.

 

Re 1: it also makes every surface ship more vulnerable. It goes back to the days of locking up fighters with fighters, and then send in the bombers unimpeded. CV damage numbers are down since exit strafe was introduced. And considering AA is balanced around the existence of manual drops, an AA nerf would almost certainly follow.

Re 2: how? If you can attack something you can't see, then it's no different from manual drops. You're saying you want to attack the nothing at a given location.

As far as it being possible but not done because of unicum CVs, I lol. WG has had no problem nerfing the assets, used by unicum DDs, every other week. Why would they pause at offending an even smaller population?

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10 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Re 1: it also makes every surface ship more vulnerable. It goes back to the days of locking up fighters with fighters, and then send in the bombers unimpeded. CV damage numbers are down since exit strafe was introduced. And considering AA is balanced around the existence of manual drops, an AA nerf would almost certainly follow.

Re 2: how? If you can attack something you can't see, then it's no different from manual drops. You're saying you want to attack the nothing at a given location.

As far as it being possible but not done because of unicum CVs, I lol. WG has had no problem nerfing the assets, used by unicum DDs, every other week. Why would they pause at offending an even smaller population?

1.  I disagree.  Strafing is the single worst contributor to the CV skill gap, and it desperately needs to be removed.  As for locking up, there's no reason this can't be changed.  Bombers don't get "locked up" by enemy fighters if they choose to continue on course, so why should fighters?

2. How?  I don't know.  Think outside the box for a change.

3. WG has historically shown a propensity for kow-towing to these god damned, self-entitled twits who think that just because they're good at a computer game, they're "special".  Why would they stop now?

 

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i have no issue with nerfing AA if   alt attack is nerf'd down.         

2 big issue with CV is       Vision and  Alt attack.              both need to be adjusted down  for balance and ceiling. 

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Ctrl-F 'carriers'.

Ctrl-A.

Del.

Pretty easy fix.

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Watch out, Kiz.  With logical suggestions like that, you'll have all the unicum CV mains out to get you for daring to suggest anything that would make the game better at, OMG!!!!, their (selfish) expense!!!  Carrier play desperately needs to be dumbed down.  And no matter how much the foolish unicum CV mains say git gud or that they should try things to help everyone else get better, they're ignoring the objective reality that it wouldn't happen.  Casual players can't be bothered to put in the great amounts of time to become competitive CV players.  And the damned unicum CV mains are too friggin selfish to willingly accept that the most practical way to lessen the game between the average player and the unicum CV main is to dumb down the mechanics so that the great players can't leverage those mechanics as powerfully as they do today. 

The reality is that the current CV mechanics favor those who are willing and able to put in the time to become super highly skilled.  This needs to change.  Dumbing down the CV mechanics would mean that it would take less time and effort to be come a good CV player and would limit the degree to which the current great CV players could leverage CV mechanics to abuse anyone who isn't up to their level.  But when you suggest this, those unicum CV mains act all offended that you're punishing them for gitting gud.  Too damned bad.  Deal with it.  Time to level the playing field, suckahs!!!  :Smile_playing:

 

No. The issue is that WG never explains the rules of the CV game. Players aren't told that strafe exists, manual drop exist, that there are tools to make micro easier, to name just a few. It took me until tier 8 to learn how to click and drag to select multiple squads. It took me until tier 9 to figure out how to use exit strafe. CVs have a skill disparity because CVs are incredibly opaque, none of the tools are told to you, and CV instruction videos are super rare. 

Unicum CV mains have spent hundreds, maybe thousands of games learning these tricks that should have been told to players from the start. This is like what would happen if captains literally had no instructions on how to captain their ships, binocular view was hidden on an obscure key, and to fire you had to press space. 

They did, ever played tier 4-5 CVs? Boring as h### no skill involved, just click and pray. That's it. Then watch as your perfectly aligned cross drop is dodged with ease by a kawachi.

Tier 4 and 5 are the only reasons I'm not grinding USN CVs.

Edited by megadeux

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

This isn't the problem.  The problem is the extreme skill gap between the unicum CV mains and the rest of the CV player population, due to the complexity of the CV mechanics.

there is always going to be a skill gap. you cant nerf the top percent of players without affecting those you are trying to compensate for by nerfing.

 

Some people are better than others. I cant run like usain bolt, throw like nolan ryan, etc.... but i will take being given the same opportunity as they were given over an equal outcome against them just for participating.

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Crucis said:

1.  I disagree.  Strafing is the single worst contributor to the CV skill gap, and it desperately needs to be removed.  As for locking up, there's no reason this can't be changed.  Bombers don't get "locked up" by enemy fighters if they choose to continue on course, so why should fighters?

2. How?  I don't know.  Think outside the box for a change.

3. WG has historically shown a propensity for kow-towing to these god damned, self-entitled twits who think that just because they're good at a computer game, they're "special".  Why would they stop now?

 

1) and the bombers are much slower when engaged, so the engaged fighters won't catch the bombers. 

2) you either can attack things you can't see or you can't, and if you can, then you have to tell it where to attack, and that's manual drops.

3) I'm not familiar with that history.

 

Another way of looking at it is all of the things you can't do, that make manual drops overpowered, in your opinion, are things you can't do to help a weaker CV player against a stronger one.

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@Crucis I'm curious, are you speaking from experience?

You have an incredibly low number of games in CVs, but you are playing at tier 7. Are you noticing the CV skill imbalance and getting wrecked by the CV elitists?

Edited by megadeux

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

Watch out, Kiz.  With logical suggestions like that, you'll have all the unicum CV mains out to get you for daring to suggest anything that would make the game better at, OMG!!!!, their (selfish) expense!!!  Carrier play desperately needs to be dumbed down.  And no matter how much the foolish unicum CV mains say git gud or that they should try things to help everyone else get better, they're ignoring the objective reality that it wouldn't happen.  Casual players can't be bothered to put in the great amounts of time to become competitive CV players.  And the damned unicum CV mains are too friggin selfish to willingly accept that the most practical way to lessen the game between the average player and the unicum CV main is to dumb down the mechanics so that the great players can't leverage those mechanics as powerfully as they do today. 

The reality is that the current CV mechanics favor those who are willing and able to put in the time to become super highly skilled.  This needs to change.  Dumbing down the CV mechanics would mean that it would take less time and effort to be come a good CV player and would limit the degree to which the current great CV players could leverage CV mechanics to abuse anyone who isn't up to their level.  But when you suggest this, those unicum CV mains act all offended that you're punishing them for gitting gud.  Too damned bad.  Deal with it.  Time to level the playing field, suckahs!!!  :Smile_playing:

 

:Smile_teethhappy: This is my barely informed opinion, but I sure it could be tweaked as nothing else seems to be working to balance carriers.

1 hour ago, cometguy said:

Take away manual attacks and the better CV player is still going to mop the floor with the worse one, because CVs basically have to deal with each other by themselves. 

Then no manual attacks also introduces the impossibility of trying to attack anyone in smoke. Basically, if the solution we're simple, it would have been done by now.

While without manual attacks, the better CV player will still cross drop and stack torps after DBs, I still think it will lessen the skill gap as manual attacks are hard to learn. I know as I'm trying now. I'm staying in PvE until I can learn alt attacks and that will take awhile.

 

I think that keeping the manual angle of attack on auto drops is good and making auto drops a little bit closer would be good as well. I also think that you should be able to attack smoke like it was a ship. You click where you want the attack and the auto attack is centered on that point with the manual angle you want. So that way you can still attack smoke, but I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement in coding.

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1 minute ago, Kizarvexis said:

:Smile_teethhappy: This is my barely informed opinion, but I sure it could be tweaked as nothing else seems to be working to balance carriers.

While without manual attacks, the better CV player will still cross drop and stack torps after DBs, I still think it will lessen the skill gap as manual attacks are hard to learn. I know as I'm trying now. I'm staying in PvE until I can learn alt attacks and that will take awhile.

 

I think that keeping the manual angle of attack on auto drops is good and making auto drops a little bit closer would be good as well. I also think that you should be able to attack smoke like it was a ship. You click where you want the attack and the auto attack is centered on that point with the manual angle you want. So that way you can still attack smoke, but I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement in coding.

Manual drops are among the easiest things to learn on the way to becoming a great CV player. As far as attacking smoke by clicking in it, all you have to do is not sit in the middle of the smoke, and you're safe.

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11 minutes ago, cometguy said:

Manual drops are among the easiest things to learn on the way to becoming a great CV player. As far as attacking smoke by clicking in it, all you have to do is not sit in the middle of the smoke, and you're safe.

 

Well for early in the process, it is not easy. I'm sure that dissuades people from keeping at it.

 

Well I wasn't saying attack the edge of the smoke, but you click where you want the auto attack to hit on smoke like you were clicking on the ship. it would be very similar to a manual drop, except that the planes auto drop and you would just point, twirl for angle and click like an auto drop. 

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1 hour ago, MokrieDela said:

there is always going to be a skill gap. you cant nerf the top percent of players without affecting those you are trying to compensate for by nerfing.

 

Some people are better than others. I cant run like usain bolt, throw like nolan ryan, etc.... but i will take being given the same opportunity as they were given over an equal outcome against them just for participating.

 

Reading is OP.

The problem isn't simply the skill gap.  Yes, there will always be weaker and stronger players.  The added problem is that the mechanics multiply the effects of the skill gap to such a degree that a strong CV player can make a so-so CV totally OP while the weaker CV player can make the so-so CV no better than if it was AFK.  This just doesn't happen with other ship types.  And if you'd actually paid attention what's been said about this previously, be me and others, you'd have understood this.

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