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Dorne1114

Hood IFHE because AP is terrible?

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I recently purchased the because its a cool historical ship, however, I have discovered my AP rounds are ineffective the majority of the time. I've seen a my AP fail to penetrate against cruisers a couple times, but against battleships I have to get extremely lucky for my AP rounds to do anything and can't remember the last time I citadeled a battleship with my Hood. I end up spend having to fire HE at battleships and some cruisers just so I can get a little damage. I understand that IFHE will only have a minimal effect against battleships but would it be worth it against cruisers?  At this point I'm desperate to improve my damage in any way I can.

Edited by Dorne1114
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Don't quote me on this because I'm not at home to look at the numbers, but you might be able to overmatch tier 5 cruiser armor with IFHE on the Hoods guns. Maybe a few tier 6's?

But, how much max HE alpha damage potential do those Hood rounds have? 4700? (just a guess)... If you get lucky and do 3 HE citadels on a cruiser for 14,000 damage, that's probably going to break even with the AP ammo i'm guessing. 

 

I've been meaning to play the Hood more often actually. I didn't like the ship until I citadeled a tier 9 Donskoi at 17km once, then I started thinking differently about the AP... Maybe I'm doing something wrong, or not using the ammo in the right way.. It's not like you get a instruction sheet with the ship or something, lol.

Edited by HorrorRoach

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Hood (and all UK BB) don’t have normal AP. They have very short fuse timer on the AP, which makes it very good against light armor. 

Dont switch to HE and dont use IFHE. Learn how to use the AP, it does very good and consistent damage if you learn where to aim. Basically aim the AP more like HE. 

The strength of this AP is lots of normal pens, few over pens. You can do 20k salvos against BB when you aim for upper belt and superstructure. 

Go in the training room and and shoot a bunch of bots till you learn where to hit them.

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You wont be losing much percentage in firestarting abilities if you take up IFHE. However, for the same points you can get  Concealment Expert which, combined with a camo will get your detection range at 13.44 km I think. This can allow you to creep closer to your opponents and utilise better your AP  and if under alot of fire use your speed to disengage.

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14 minutes ago, Six_Four said:

Hood (and all UK BB) don’t have normal AP. They have very short fuse timer on the AP, which makes it very good against light armor. 

Dont switch to HE and dont use IFHE. Learn how to use the AP, it does very good and consistent damage if you learn where to aim. Basically aim the AP more like HE. 

The strength of this AP is lots of normal pens, few over pens. You can do 20k salvos against BB when you aim for upper belt and superstructure. 

Go in the training room and and shoot a bunch of bots till you learn where to hit them.

 

Exactly this, well said. Don't aim for BB waterlines or you'll just get shatters.

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Hood's AP is fine and even vs T9 you can do damage. You just need to know where to aim and when to go for the citadel shot or when to aim for upper belt. Hood gives excellent regular pen damage salvos. 15-20K is not uncommon. Again, if you aim for the right areas (in general and specific locations on specific ships). It will citadel other BB's to. Have citadeled enemy BB's with Hood every tier from T5-T9. Maybe not as often as BB's with bigger guns but it does it. I love the Hood.

Your issues may be more relayed to buying your way to a higher tier than your experience can handle. Not meant offensive just a comment.

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I have a Tier 5 BB and Tier 7 CV that aren't premium so not that much of a jump. Plus I'm pretty damn good at hitting stuff with my low velocity guns. How does one aim specifically for the upper belt at 18 km? I seem to either be over penetrating the super structure or shattering. Just finished a game with 47 main battery hits, most in the 15 to 18 km range so plunging fire against deck and superstructure mainly, and was looking at maybe 30% effective hits.  

Edited by Dorne1114

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5 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Your issues may be more relayed to buying your way to a higher tier than your experience can handle. Not meant offensive just a comment.

^^^This.

Not to be mean or disparage anyone, but people should NEVER buy a Premium ship that that don't have the equivalent national tier line unlocked already.

In the case of the Hood, you should have played up through a minimum of finishing the Queen Elizabeth, and earning the KGV.   That would have familiarized you with how RN BB AP really works.

Save your money for Premium time so you can advance faster, @Dorn111  But you WANT the playing time to understand how the game works. it's not just "who gets to T10 is the winner" thing. 

 

My VERY strong advance is for you to spend NO MORE MONEY on the game - with the exception of buying Premium account time - until you really understand how the game works.  Otherwise, you're just wasting your money.  You should be doing the various Campaigns to see how the mechanics perform, how to aim, WHERE to aim, and the like.  Things won't do better in ANY premium until you've learned the basic skills the game requires.

Don't buy anything until you hit 1,000 games.  Then you can start looking at ships, flags, camo, etc, to purchase because you'll know what is worth it, and what's just window dressing.

 

Also, buy things because they're fun, not because they're some sort of historical thing - for that, get actual ship models, since the things in this game deviate significantly from the real things, and "collecting" them for some sort of history buff fetish is, well, kinda foolish.

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21 minutes ago, Dorne1114 said:

I have a Tier 5 BB and Tier 7 CV that aren't premium so not that much of a jump. Plus I'm pretty damn good at hitting stuff with my low velocity guns. How does one aim specifically for the upper belt at 18 km? I seem to either be over penetrating the super structure or shattering. Just finished a game with 47 main battery hits, most in the 15 to 18 km range so plunging fire against deck and superstructure mainly, and was looking at maybe 30% effective hits.  

The jump from T5 to T7 is a pretty significant one unless it's a T5-T7 match. The moment Hood is matched against T8s and T9s how the match plays out is significantly different. 

If you're looking for playstyle advice you need to mentally embody the BC style of play. Hunt Cruisers; Disengage from Battleships.

Sure there will be moments when you will need to "stand and fight" but if you're able to run; run. 

Anyways, I'm assuming your T5 BB is a Kongo. If it is, Hood plays similar, BUT everything that hits back at her hits significantly harder than other ships hit back at Kongo. 

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8 hours ago, Dorne1114 said:

I have a Tier 5 BB and Tier 7 CV that aren't premium so not that much of a jump. Plus I'm pretty damn good at hitting stuff with my low velocity guns. How does one aim specifically for the upper belt at 18 km? I seem to either be over penetrating the super structure or shattering. Just finished a game with 47 main battery hits, most in the 15 to 18 km range so plunging fire against deck and superstructure mainly, and was looking at maybe 30% effective hits.  

30% at 15-18km from a BB is actually a very good hit ratio if that is what you mean. It won't get much better than that.

You are trying to snipe with Hood and stay at it's max range all the time from the sounds of it. Move in closer (8-12km) and you will do better. Hood's AP doesn't have the punch at max range, barring a perfect hit, to do a lot for you. In the mid ranges it is great AND a lot more accurate too.

You can aim for the upper belt even at max range. You just have to raise you aim point accordingly. If fully flat broadside just aim at upper belt (line where side of hull meets the deck or  hair below it). If angled a bit going away you aim slightly above the intended target area or aim a little lower if angled a bit coming towards you. If angled sharply aim for the superstructure/guns or pick another target as you will just see your shells bounce if you try and hit the hull. You have to pick the time to shoot at the hull.

CV play has nothing to do with BB/Cruiser/DD. Totally different play mechanics. Even if you played to T10 and then started playing the other ship types you would want to start at T1 and progress up the tree. Other than knowing the basics of play like capping, points, etc... playing Cv has nothing to do with the other ship types and vice versa.

It appears to me you have rushed up the tiers a bit. It is a mistake a lot of players make. T1-T4 you should play every nation's ships in a particular ship type to get a feel for how the class plays as a whole plus it gives you insight on how to play against those ships too. It is a valuable learning process. You have just a few games in a T5 BB and then you bought Hood. Iron Duke will only see up to T7. Hood being a T7 will see T9. That is a HUGE jump in experience from where you are at T5.

The best advice the guy who got me into WOWS gave me was not to rush up the line and if I was going to play BB to play them all, play Cruiser play them all, etc... T1-T4. At T5 you can start focusing more on a specific nation or nations. Even playing Cruisers if you are a BB main for example at those low tiers gives you a lot of valuable experience. I think you have made a mistake and rushed through to where you are.

It's just an observation however and some constructive criticism. Not trying to be offensive. Try the aiming advice I gave you above and remember as well high tier BB's have really good armor and will bounce a lot of shells. You are now in the area where you need to know where to aim on an individual ship (the ones you are shooting at) basis. Hood has excellent guns vs T5 and T6 BB. They are good vs T7. Vs T8 and T9 they are underpowered vs the armor they face and you need to know when to shoot at what spot to maximize your damage. Even vs T9 Hood can deliver massive damage if you get good shots but if you take marginal shots you will get bounces and shatters. This is where all the games playing and experience gained, that unfortunately you just don't have, grinding from low tiers to the higher tiers vs buying into them teaches you how to handle it.

Good luck and I hope you get better in Hood. It is a great ship when played to it's strengths. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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8 hours ago, Ivlerlin said:

The jump from T5 to T7 is a pretty significant one unless it's a T5-T7 match. The moment Hood is matched against T8s and T9s how the match plays out is significantly different. 

If you're looking for playstyle advice you need to mentally embody the BC style of play. Hunt Cruisers; Disengage from Battleships.

Sure there will be moments when you will need to "stand and fight" but if you're able to run; run. 

Anyways, I'm assuming your T5 BB is a Kongo. If it is, Hood plays similar, BUT everything that hits back at her hits significantly harder than other ships hit back at Kongo. 

Actually his T5 is Iron Duke which is nothing like Hood.

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13 hours ago, EAnybody said:

^^^This.

Not to be mean or disparage anyone, but people should NEVER buy a Premium ship that that don't have the equivalent national tier line unlocked already.

In the case of the Hood, you should have played up through a minimum of finishing the Queen Elizabeth, and earning the KGV.   That would have familiarized you with how RN BB AP really works.

Save your money for Premium time so you can advance faster, @Dorn111  But you WANT the playing time to understand how the game works. it's not just "who gets to T10 is the winner" thing. 

 

My VERY strong advance is for you to spend NO MORE MONEY on the game - with the exception of buying Premium account time - until you really understand how the game works.  Otherwise, you're just wasting your money.  You should be doing the various Campaigns to see how the mechanics perform, how to aim, WHERE to aim, and the like.  Things won't do better in ANY premium until you've learned the basic skills the game requires.

Don't buy anything until you hit 1,000 games.  Then you can start looking at ships, flags, camo, etc, to purchase because you'll know what is worth it, and what's just window dressing.

 

Also, buy things because they're fun, not because they're some sort of historical thing - for that, get actual ship models, since the things in this game deviate significantly from the real things, and "collecting" them for some sort of history buff fetish is, well, kinda foolish.

This is excessively negative.  People are often able to evaluate their options better than that, though Dunning-Kruger can be an issue.  I bought Hood when I had a single Tier VII ship and a total battle count of about 500 battles, including closed Beta.  My stats in Hood are about average, which is generally acceptable.  Heck, by your advice nobody ought to have bought Hood or Warspite as nobody had Tier VII or Tier VI in the regular line because the regular line didn't exist.

I agree that people should be cautious with buying premiums, but there are times it is OK.

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Hood AP is great, it's the same OP AP that the QE apologists love except it doesn't come with turrets that take forever to turn. Hood's turrets are also 20 seconds faster to go 180 degrees than even the Warspite's even and the Warspite is a real popular premium for largely being better than the QE in that area.  That being said Hood is the most lethal against cruisers and by lethal I mean often one shotting them. Not worthless against BB's but there's a huge difference. 

Your HE is good by WOWS standards, bad by UK BB standards. AP is your best bet on Hood IMO and you shouldn't be HEing but you should be chasing cruisers not BB's if you have the option. 

Hood's AP is stronger than the KGV class, weaker than Nelson. It's HE is the worst of the foursome. 

Edited by Aristotle83

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3 hours ago, Helstrem said:

This is excessively negative.  People are often able to evaluate their options better than that, though Dunning-Kruger can be an issue.  I bought Hood when I had a single Tier VII ship and a total battle count of about 500 battles, including closed Beta.  My stats in Hood are about average, which is generally acceptable.  Heck, by your advice nobody ought to have bought Hood or Warspite as nobody had Tier VII or Tier VI in the regular line because the regular line didn't exist.

I agree that people should be cautious with buying premiums, but there are times it is OK.

My point was primarily aimed at new players - you should NEVER be buying premium ships (or heck, flags and such) until you really understand what you're buying, and that requires SIGNIFICANT experience with the game. That only comes with total playing time and "study" - something new players very often neglect:  read the Wiki, the forums, and YouTubers to really figure out the fine points of the game.

I picked 1,000 games as a reasonable period of time, though perhaps that's a bit high.  Realistically, the amount of experience to be able to properly judge any Premium's worth means you should have played up to AT LEAST tier 8 in something, and a very good smattering of ship types and nationalities:  I'd say you should have played through T6 in at least 2 nations and in the three basic ships types: DD, CA, BB.   I can't see that being done in anything less than a bare minimum of 500 games, and somewhere closer to 1,000 seems to be where everyone really does clue in well.  Remember that an *average* player earns less than 1,000 XP per game, and to earn a  T8 requires on the order of 400,000 XP - even getting a T6 requires nearly 200,000.   So, yeah, not buying a premium until you've got 3-4 T6 and a T8 ship means you're gonna need to play 1,000 games or so to earn the 750k to 1m XP necessary.  And those games really should be in Random, not CoOp, unless you plan on only playing CoOp, ever.

You really should have played up to the tier/nation/ship type  level of the premium you are buying.  It's so completely obvious in the game to see people who do Wallet Warrior - that's universally considered BAD, and the primary root cause is people buying a premium who don't have equivalent experience in the ship type/line/nation itself.

Particularly because one of the biggest values of any Premium ship is it's ability to train up Captains for the nation you buy it for, and not understanding captain skills thoroughly means you waste a huge portion of the value of a premium.

As a general rule, until you've gotten very significant experience as a whole, you should NOT be buying Premiums in new lines. You're just wasting money, or at best, engaging in speculation.  So yeah, buying a Premium in a line that either doesn't exist, or which you haven't even gotten a ship 2 tiers below the premium's, is NOT a good idea.  Unless one of two things is in play:  (1) you've got lots of money to burn, and don't care about a "value" metric, just a possession metric, OR (2) you've got a whole bunch of experience - on the order of 1000+ HOURS or so into the game to fully understand how everything (and I do mean EVERYTHING) plays, even if you haven't ground through every line completely.    So, yeah, the number of people who bought Warspite or Hood before the RN BB line came out really SHOULD have been very limited to only the very experienced BB players.

Remember I'm giving advice to people NOW.  Conditions were different even 1 year ago, so I'd give different advice then.

This is not pessimism, this is an attempt to make sure people (a) understand what they're buying (b) get value out of what they're buying, and not ripped off, and (c) enjoy what they're buying, all the while trying to not keep the overall gameplay from degrading significantly.  In many ways, it's like high-performance cars:   what kind of a fool walks onto a deal lot and buys a Ferrari (should they have the money) before they have owned and driven extensively other high-performance cars, and have done due dilligence to compare their Ferrari's specs with both their prior cars and the competition Maserati or Porsche?  Not that there's not plenty of people silly enough to do so, and the number of wrecks of such cars on European highways is testament to the unsoundness of that purchase.

 


 

Note that this is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism/advice:  it's not meant to denigrate individual's abilities. It's talking about how Premium Ship value is really only realized by players with sufficient experience in the game to put it to good use.

Otherwise, you've got a bunch of ships you've paid significant cash for, and they're not really too much fun to play, because, fundamentally, you don't have the experience to get that fun. And that even leaves out the problem that you'd not getting the game value out of the purchase.

Edited by EAnybody

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I recommend looking into the ship a bit more, watching a few videos and playing in the training room. The AP is different from other similar ships so might take a bit of experience to get good with. Go in close! 

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On 2/3/2018 at 6:32 PM, EAnybody said:

My point was primarily aimed at new players - you should NEVER be buying premium ships (or heck, flags and such) until you really understand what you're buying, and that requires SIGNIFICANT experience with the game. That only comes with total playing time and "study" - something new players very often neglect:  read the Wiki, the forums, and YouTubers to really figure out the fine points of the game.

I picked 1,000 games as a reasonable period of time, though perhaps that's a bit high.  Realistically, the amount of experience to be able to properly judge any Premium's worth means you should have played up to AT LEAST tier 8 in something, and a very good smattering of ship types and nationalities:  I'd say you should have played through T6 in at least 2 nations and in the three basic ships types: DD, CA, BB.   I can't see that being done in anything less than a bare minimum of 500 games, and somewhere closer to 1,000 seems to be where everyone really does clue in well.  Remember that an *average* player earns less than 1,000 XP per game, and to earn a  T8 requires on the order of 400,000 XP - even getting a T6 requires nearly 200,000.   So, yeah, not buying a premium until you've got 3-4 T6 and a T8 ship means you're gonna need to play 1,000 games or so to earn the 750k to 1m XP necessary.  And those games really should be in Random, not CoOp, unless you plan on only playing CoOp, ever.

You really should have played up to the tier/nation/ship type  level of the premium you are buying.  It's so completely obvious in the game to see people who do Wallet Warrior - that's universally considered BAD, and the primary root cause is people buying a premium who don't have equivalent experience in the ship type/line/nation itself.

Particularly because one of the biggest values of any Premium ship is it's ability to train up Captains for the nation you buy it for, and not understanding captain skills thoroughly means you waste a huge portion of the value of a premium.

As a general rule, until you've gotten very significant experience as a whole, you should NOT be buying Premiums in new lines. You're just wasting money, or at best, engaging in speculation.  So yeah, buying a Premium in a line that either doesn't exist, or which you haven't even gotten a ship 2 tiers below the premium's, is NOT a good idea.  Unless one of two things is in play:  (1) you've got lots of money to burn, and don't care about a "value" metric, just a possession metric, OR (2) you've got a whole bunch of experience - on the order of 1000+ HOURS or so into the game to fully understand how everything (and I do mean EVERYTHING) plays, even if you haven't ground through every line completely.    So, yeah, the number of people who bought Warspite or Hood before the RN BB line came out really SHOULD have been very limited to only the very experienced BB players.

Remember I'm giving advice to people NOW.  Conditions were different even 1 year ago, so I'd give different advice then.

This is not pessimism, this is an attempt to make sure people (a) understand what they're buying (b) get value out of what they're buying, and not ripped off, and (c) enjoy what they're buying, all the while trying to not keep the overall gameplay from degrading significantly.  In many ways, it's like high-performance cars:   what kind of a fool walks onto a deal lot and buys a Ferrari (should they have the money) before they have owned and driven extensively other high-performance cars, and have done due dilligence to compare their Ferrari's specs with both their prior cars and the competition Maserati or Porsche?  Not that there's not plenty of people silly enough to do so, and the number of wrecks of such cars on European highways is testament to the unsoundness of that purchase.

 


 

Note that this is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism/advice:  it's not meant to denigrate individual's abilities. It's talking about how Premium Ship value is really only realized by players with sufficient experience in the game to put it to good use.

Otherwise, you've got a bunch of ships you've paid significant cash for, and they're not really too much fun to play, because, fundamentally, you don't have the experience to get that fun. And that even leaves out the problem that you'd not getting the game value out of the purchase.

This honestly a bit extreme. New players are the ones who need premiums the most to get to the higher tiers. Without premiums as a ticket to the higher tiers it would be harder to keep new players interested. 

People also buy the premiums for the historical value and this is one premium where that was probably especially the case for many buyers. 

People who buy premiums have the option of training with it, using it in co ops and using it is missions they aren't just going to do randoms, though I'd argue they'd learn more and grow much faster from 5-10 nightmares at a higher tier than a slow grind. Asking people to wait until they get 1000 games(something that the average casual player might not ever get to) even 500 games before buying premiums which tend to be the most historically desired ships is unreasonable. 

Hood is also a pretty fun ship to play and being initially bad doesn't make the ship not fun, though for me Hood was the premium I think I had the shortest learning curve. Only premium I felt overwhelmed playing right off the bat was the Warspite when I jumped from 4-6, after that all the jumps and/or premium buys I made didn't really seem like a problem. 

 

Edited by Aristotle83

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On 2/4/2018 at 6:06 PM, Aristotle83 said:

This honestly a bit extreme. New players are the ones who need premiums the most to get to the higher tiers. Without premiums as a ticket to the higher tiers it would be harder to keep new players interested. 

Therein lies the fallacy. You don't NEED to get to a higher tier to have fun. Most experienced players will tell you the primary "fun" is at the T5-7 range, and many still find T4 highly enjoyable.  Getting a T5 requires about 12 hours of play, give or take, getting to T7 requires maybe another 30 hours. Both of those numbers presume no Premium account time, and VERY average XP games (500/game for T5 and less, 750/game for T6+T7). In short, requiring 500 games means you should easily be able to have a T7 in 6 different types/lines/nations, even presuming you play just CoOp  from T1 up to T5. 

We don't hand out F1 racing cars to race at Indianpolis for anyone who can pony up $10m.  This is the same concept:  you can have lots of fun in your $50k Porsche, and you don't need to buy a Maserati or Ferrari or the like to do so. 

Just look at my profile:  I've got 5500+ games, and about 2000 of them are in T5 and T6.  Less than 1% are in T10.  And the large majority of my T9 games were solely played to grind out a T10. "Fun" isn't at the high tiers - its at the middle ones. Fun is about finding the right ships that fits your playstyle, and that's ALMOST always at T5 to T8, though virtually all good players have a favorite T4 or T3 too. 

 

Quote

People who buy premiums have the option of training with it, using it in co ops and using it is missions they aren't just going to do randoms, though I'd argue they'd learn more and grow much faster from 5-10 nightmares at a higher tier than a slow grind. Asking people to wait until they get 1000 games(something that the average casual player might not ever get to) even 500 games before buying premiums which tend to be the most historically desired ships is unreasonable. 

Very few missions require more than T7, with the exception of the Campaigns. Operations are all for T6 & T7.  And Campaigns are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for people to NOT just buy they're way into - they're for EXPERIENCED players. Wallet Warrior defeats the entire premise of rewarding experience.

You can argue all you want about how much unskilled people learn when allowed to play high tiers, but that doesn't mean it's validated by any metric or even anecdotal evidence, and that completely ignores the fact that having newbies at high tiers RUINS the game for everyone else. This isn't just all about you, it's about the community as a whole, and it's already a terrible thing in Random to see the differences in skill levels between the merely average experienced player and the really good experienced player.  Wanna see the best way to have a crappy game?  See an Atlanta driver who doesn't have a clue as to what they're doing. Or a Graf Spee or Harekaze player completely bork the game by not understanding the T7 meta-game. Happens all the time, and it's a really crappy thing to do to the other team mates, because having just one dumb player on your team can be a huge drag.  Heck, I bet if you'd ask those experienced people on this forum who they'd rather have on their team (1) an AFK who does absolutely nothing the whole game, or (2) a Wallet Warrior, you'd get everyone to say #1, and twice on weekends.  Because you can at least count on an AFK not to screw over the team by doing something dumb.  And "dumb" in this context very, very, very often merely includes "not knowing the proper thing to do in a situation where anyone with experience would immediately know". 

When to retreat. Which ships to target in priority order. What a teammate is almost certainly doing (or not doing) in a particular set of circumstances. Which ships are going to need assistance, and which can hold their own. Which places on a given map are key, which are schmuck bait, and what strategies work well at various points.  These skills ALL require dozens of games in a particular ship to understand, and a 100+ in any particular tier's type (CA/BB/etc.) to be competent in. 

Merely having access to a higher-tier ship does NOTHING to teach you about the game that you can't learn (and learn better) by a grind. It just makes the game less enjoyable for everyone.  Arguing otherwise is like saying we should allow Pee Wee football players to play in the NFL, because, hey, it's a learning experience, right?

Maybe there should be some sort of a test that is required to advance a person beyond "newbie" to "competent". But until someone devises that test, total experience is the best metric. 

If you can't put in the time to play 500-1000 games (which, overall, is about 100-200 hours total, assuming 5 games/hour,  3-4 months of very modest play), then why on earth is it a good idea to recommend they plunk down serious cash?  This is a VALUE proposition - and if you're not playing much, then there's no VALUE in spending cash on the game.  Remember that just ONE premium ship costs about what any AAA-level game for a PC costs.  Buying a Hood costs just as much as Call of Duty, and few people would recommend plunking down the cash for CoD if you weren't going to spend at least 100 hours playing it - they might not phrase it that way, but that's reality. 

 

The whole "historical play" thing is PURE MARKETING.  Ships don't play anything like reality. Not even a little bit. This is a VIDEO GAME.  If you're into the ship for historical reasons, then buying a physical model will be far more rational - you get something that's absolutely historically accurate, and you get all the other benefits of assembling it and understanding the historical literature that comes with a physical model.  Premium ships can be cool to play, but don't confuse that WG's Marketing Department strategy to get you to pad corporate profits.

 

The fact that WG has built virtually it's entire business model around selling premium ships as their largest source of revenue is a terrible decision, because it absolutely reinforces this Wallet Warrior mentality and the rest of the awful behavior that goes with it. The sad fact is that there are plenty of other ways for WG to make at least as much money, that they for some reason don't do - the Premium ship model is only the most obvious, doesn't make it remotely the best.

 

So, no, asking someone to wait until they have played 500-1000 games is in no way pessimistic or unreasonable. The fact that very causal players may never reach this IS A GOOD THING.  I realize we're in an Instant Gratification culture, but that doesn't make it a Good Thing, let alone a rational decision to recommend that people spend non-trivial amounts of money for something they're not willing to put a modicum of effort into. 

 

 

On 2/4/2018 at 6:06 PM, Aristotle83 said:

Hood is also a pretty fun ship to play and being initially bad doesn't make the ship not fun, though for me Hood was the premium I think I had the shortest learning curve. Only premium I felt overwhelmed playing right off the bat was the Warspite when I jumped from 4-6, after that all the jumps and/or premium buys I made didn't really seem like a problem. 

And this is my point exactly. You just made my argument for me.  The ship wasn't fun until you had sufficient experience to play it well.  People simply shouldn't be buying Premiums until they have that experience. And that experience doesn't come quickly in terms of time.

 

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On 2/4/2018 at 9:06 PM, Aristotle83 said:

This honestly a bit extreme. New players are the ones who need premiums the most to get to the higher tiers. Without premiums as a ticket to the higher tiers it would be harder to keep new players interested. 

People also buy the premiums for the historical value and this is one premium where that was probably especially the case for many buyers. 

People who buy premiums have the option of training with it, using it in co ops and using it is missions they aren't just going to do randoms, though I'd argue they'd learn more and grow much faster from 5-10 nightmares at a higher tier than a slow grind. Asking people to wait until they get 1000 games(something that the average casual player might not ever get to) even 500 games before buying premiums which tend to be the most historically desired ships is unreasonable. 

Hood is also a pretty fun ship to play and being initially bad doesn't make the ship not fun, though for me Hood was the premium I think I had the shortest learning curve. Only premium I felt overwhelmed playing right off the bat was the Warspite when I jumped from 4-6, after that all the jumps and/or premium buys I made didn't really seem like a problem. 

 

I ground to the T10 Montana and T10 Yamato in Co-op so I know all about grinding and time required. I didn't start with premium time until T5-T6. I didn't start with camo and flags until T6-T7. I was already to T8-T9 before I got the one and only premium ship I had while grinding those 2 lines (Hood ironically - got it because it was Hood though not for the grind). I have since got many premium ships and yes it makes the grinds go much faster and I am advancing other lines more rapidly. The difference is I have the experience to go at this new pace. 

Too many new players fall prey to the instant gratification flaw our society is infected with these days of needing to get to those high tiers as fast as they can even if they aren't ready for it when they get there. Gimmie gimmie gimmie now now now. Nobody wants to put work and effort into anything anymore. :Smile_sceptic: Buying your way to the higher tiers is a bad idea. If your motivation for buying Premium ships is to earn XP and credits to help you grind faster you would be better off using that money for Premium time and flags/camo which will do the same thing but you stay in ships/tiers you have the experience to play.

The grinds from T1-T4 are fairly quick but very important to your game foundation. It is where you learn basic game play. The T5-T7 grinds take a bit longer and it is where you hone those basic skills, T8-T10 is a LONG grind because this is where you develop your instincts so that when you take that leap from T8-T9 and then T9-T10 you are experienced enough to handle it. There is also a WG money making component and MM component to this as well but lets leave that out LOL.

Premium ships are good things and any player has the right to buy them. Buy away just leave them in port until you are ready to use them. I think they do themselves a big disservice though if they are at say T3 and they buy a T8 Tirpitz. They aren't ready for that and it hurts their growth in the game and it hurts the teams they play on. I also think too many who do this think buying the ship will make them better. It's like oh the Tirpitz is OP so if I buy it I will slaughter everyone. Nope, not how it works. There isn't one ship in the game you can buy that will make you a better player. It is the better players who are able to make the ships OP.

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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Wow, didn't realize the hate towards newer players in premiums. I understand the issues with a new player jumping to a ship they don't understand how to play and that it can drag down the experience for the entire team. I recently played someone captioning a Saipan and the guy clearly didn't know how to strafe. I knocked out almost all of his planes using the fighters from my Ranger and he had an air superiority build. I'm betting his team was not very happy with him. I, however, did very well in the Hood initially and was at the very least pulling my weight. Not so much recently because I've started playing more aggressively in an attempt to get in close where my AP rounds are more effective and keep getting my [edited]handed to me. I was asking about the IFHE because I wanted to be an exceptional hood caption rather then an average one.   

To make a couple quick points, I'm not racing to T10. I love the older World War One era ships and have the most fun in Tiers 5-7, hence the reason that I didn't purchase a Tier VIII or IX ship (even though I could pull in more credits and XP with one). Yes, I bought the ship for historical reasons and I know perfectly well that it will not perform exactly like the real ship, but I'm fine with that. I did my research and knew performance wise I could do much better for a T6 or T7 premium battleship but went with the one I thought I'd enjoy more, which is the point of playing the game in the first place. 

To the argument that I needed to grind out to T7 in the UK line, I'm getting close to unlocking the T7 King George V by now and NONE of the other UK battleships play anything like the Hood, so playing them first isn't a whole lot of help except for general battleship skills and I know how to angle, aim, dodge torpedoes, battleship tactics and so on. I'm not saying that I'm awesome but I'm also not a total newb. 

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Just to be clear I don't hate new players that buy premiums. I think it is a colossal mistake that hurts not only them but their teams but I don't hate them. I don't think you meant anyone here but? I am just offering advice.

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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Maybe hate was too strong of a word and I do appreciate the advice. My response was aimed at EAnybody, his replies basically boil down to "you shoudn't be using premiums because your a newb," which is not very constructive.   

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@Dorne1114 the quick and gritty is IFHE won't be worth the Opportunity cost of 4 cmdr points compared to the increased Penetration for your 381mm HE shells. The 4 skill points would be better spent on the likes of FP (fire prevention) or CE (concealment expert). 

@EAnybody's posts are essentially saying "you're going to hurt the team and their ability to win IF the premium purchased is too big a gap in playstyle of current owned ships OR gameplay for Tier" but his post predominantly apply to Ranked and Randoms. Sure co-op and PvE will have some negatives with Tier Jumping but the effects of it are lesser because for the most part all Bots act relatively the same. 

Personally I think 100-250 games played at with a ship of similar strengths or -1T is enough played time for "jumping up" with a Premium. But results vary, some players are capable of adapting in a shorter amount of time than others. 

I suggest you work your way up to the IJN Kongo if you having minor struggles with Hood. Both have 2x4 Main Battery and are more reliant on their speed. Sure they both can do Battleship things, but their strengths lay in being able to abuse their Battle Cruiser characteristics. 

Going back to IFHE for Hood, anything that your HE has potential to Citadel should already be able to do so without the skill. And anything that it Shatters/Bounces (fails to damage) also will not be boosted to Penetrate with the skill. 

There might be the odd outliers and armour areas but the list is small enough not to warrant spending points on the skill. The one exception might be a Secondary Build to allow the secondaries to Penetrate armour better, but again the points are still better off elsewhere; also Hood isn't the best for Brawling, even though it's speed allows you to get into Brawling Ranges easier. 

So Unless you happen to also own a Belfast with its 152 HE abilities, OR are planning to prepare for a gun focused RN DD when they're eventually get released. IFHE on a RN BB are points better spent elsewhere. The only minor exception is the T10 Conqueror with 457mm (HE Citadels on certain CACLs), but the 419's are regarded as a more effective loadout. 

It highly dependent on what you are planning on doing with your commander, IFHE is useless on the RN CLs with their AP only, the DDs are lacking in true identity and yet to be released but IFHE would be okay for a "gunboat build", and the BBs while "okay" for some have stronger options for those 4 CMDR points. 

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Also, note that British Battleships ALREADY have the equivalent of IFHE:  their main guns benefit from the /4 rather than the /6 mechanic for penetration.

So, for the Hood, the 381mm HE penetrates 95mm of armor, and overmatch 6mm.  That' mean it will pen the bow, stern, deck, superstructure, and upper deck belt (so far as I can tell without an extensive Wiki search) of every single BB and CA it will see, as well as the citadel armor of most T7 and below cruisers.  It can overmatch NONE of them.  Adding in the 30% bonus of IFHE brings that to 123mm of pen, which adds a couple more cruiser's citadel belt armor to be penned.  And again, it won't overmatch anything (8mm overmatch capability).

Realistically, there's very little armor you'll be shooting at that IFHE can made a difference in - mostly small sections of belt armor on a few T7 and T8 cruisers, and, frankly, your aim isn't going to be good enough to take advantage there (the sections are so small that no one is going to be reliably hit that section where IFHE would make a difference).

The Hood's AP, on the other hand, can overmatch 26mm of armor, which is the superstructure, bow and stern plating of every single ship T7 and below, plus the bow and stern and deck of most and under CAs, plus every bit of armor on every single DD it will ever see.

IFHE simply is a waste of 4 captain points on RN BBs, and I'm pretty sure it's a waste on ANY BB.

For the most part, the strategy for RN BBs of any tier, in terms of ammo against a given target, is:

  • If a DD, shoot HE
  • If a CA giving you modest broadside or more, shoot AP
  • If a CA in any other position, shoot, HE
  • If a CL, shoot AP
  • If a BB, shoot HE, unless it's broadside at 8km or less, and there, I tend to recommend AP and aiming NOT for the waterline citadel, but for the upper belt armor. Very few citadels, but massive numbers of pure pens. And 5 AP pens from a Hood - common in this kind of situation - will do 15-19k in damage .

Even in cases where you would do better with AP on a CA or CL in terms of absolute Hit Point damage, shooting HE isn't a bad option either:  you'll do noticeably less damage (and will seldom score citadels), but you'll absolutely wreck their modules - you can blow out turrets, engines, torps and rudder trivially with your HE.  It's so bad that I've regularly hit something like a Fiji with 3 shells, and started 2 fires, destroyed torp tubes, knocked out both engine and rudder, and killed 30% of their AA, all with just that single salvo of 3 hits.  HE on CLs and even CAs might not kill them, but it can almost instantly reduce them to complete ineffectiveness, cripple them, and make them sitting ducks for any other friendlies to finish off. The same applies for HE on BBs - in particular, long-range HE fire from the Hood is an excellent way to completely remove any AA on an enemy BB, and destroy most of their secondaries.  This strategy is particularly brutal against KM and US BBs, which get a non-trivial percentage of their utility from their AA or Secondary guns, which the Hood's HE just nuked.

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One further thing to add about ammo choices is how the "rough math" works when it comes to ammo types and how it reacts with enemy armour. 

For AP ::: 1 Citadel = 3 Penetrations = 10 Over-pens 

For HE ::: 1 Citadel = 3 Penetrations = 5 AP over-pens

HE vs AP ::: 1 AP Citadel = 2 HE Citadels = 6 HE Penetrations = 10 AP over-pens

HE while different across ship types trends to do 45-55% the Maximum Citadel damage of their AP not including Fires set. 

There are some damage modifiers that make some of the above "untrue" but as a General Rule to keep in the back of your mind it's good to remember. Especially when you have the "wrong ammo" loaded for a situation. Keeping the rough AP VS HE; Pen vs Citadel conversions in the back of your mind will help. It means that even if you have the wrong type loaded as long as you're aiming and hitting the correct part of a ship you should still be getting good damage rolls. 

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