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NAfishyCaptain

AA defence and torpedoes

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I was playing as a pheonix cruiser the other day and i kept being wrecked by torps and planes. Can anyone suggest me a good ship(s) that is decent or excels at both torpedo tubes and aa defence. Thanks

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Do you have Basic  Fire Training and Advanced Fire Training Captain skills on your ships Captain?

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The majority of Cruisers below Tier VII have terrible AA and to top it off, lack of access to Defensive Fire consumable.  The best thing you can do is select the torpedo bomber by CTRL+LMB for AA focus and maneuvering to be a hard target.  Pay attention and know when the CV is coming after you, because Cruisers are actually a real PITA for CVs to nail.  See it coming early and make the CV work for it.

 

For USN Cruisers, just persevere.  At Tier VI you access Cleveland and with an AA Build she makes any CV cry.

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51 minutes ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

Without commanders, is there any good torpedo and aa boat?

The T10 Minotaur is good in both :Smile_hiding:

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56 minutes ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

Without commanders, is there any good torpedo and aa boat?

It does not have Torpedoes, but Texas Premium ship is great tier 5 AA ship any does not require high level captain.

 

just remembered that Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Fletcher, and Gearing all have Torpedoes and AA that's good. 

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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49 minutes ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

Without commanders, is there any good torpedo and aa boat?

For Cruisers?

 

USN Cruisers lose torpedo capability when they leave Tier V.

IJN Cruisers have s--t AA no matter what but maintain long range 10km torpedoes.

German Cruisers start having great AA starting at Tier VIII and retain torpedo capability throughout, but their torpedo range is 6km.

RU Cruisers start having great AA starting at Tier IX, but that is also the last tier they have torpedoes (8km) as Moskva at Tier X has no torps.

French Cruisers start having great AA starting at Tier IX but their torpedo loadouts are rather very light in the number of torps they launch.

 

For Destroyers?  I'm not the biggest expert with DDs but from what I learned:

 

USN DDs start having good AA possibilities at Tier VIII.  Benson at VIII however has to drop a gun and go Hull-C, but accesses Defensive Fire.  But from Fletcher on, Defensive Fire is built in.

IJN DDs?  AA?  LOL!  Only feasible one is Akizuki at Tier VIII and even then, it's a stretch.

RU DDs?  Defensive Fire is possible with Tier IX Udaloi but she's not really that great a torpedo boat.  Tier X Grozovoi accesses Defensive Fire.

German DDs?  Unsure.

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For T4, the Phoenix isn't terrible at both tasks.

Remember to turn into torps or slow down as well once they drop (you are only facing auto drop at this level).

Cross dropping can be an issue but with some good W-A-S-D movement you can dodge both sets. This skill set also helps at higher tiers but is harder against manual drops.

For AA, low tiers there is the Yubari but that is a premium and also on the IJN line.

Cleveland atT6 is your best bet, but to be honest the Emerald and Leander are great for AA and Torpedoes if you have a good captain.

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Something also to note is that AA is RNG based and not actually DPS or HP based.

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11 minutes ago, Goose21891 said:

Something also to note is that AA is RNG based and not actually DPS or HP based.

It's rng if it hits, the dps is how often it roles for a hit, and the damage is how much it does when it roles a hit.

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AA isn't the problem here.

 

You need to turn in towards the torpedo bombers. This way it will be very difficult for the carrier to drop you. This is especially true at low tiers, where the carriers can only use automatic drops. 

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Also, im not the best manouverer and i just need a balance of aa, manouverability and torpedoes and not too high tier ships

Edited by NAfishyCaptain

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2 minutes ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

Also, im not the best manouverer and i just need a balance of aa, manouverability and torpedoes and not too high tier ships

If you're not willing to go higher tier, then there is no such ship.  Omaha is terrible as both torpedo and AA boat.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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13 minutes ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

then what tier ship, maybe dd?

For DDs it's worse, you need to go higher tier.

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2 hours ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

I was playing as a pheonix cruiser the other day and i kept being wrecked by torps and planes. Can anyone suggest me a good ship(s) that is decent or excels at both torpedo tubes and aa defence. Thanks

 

1 hour ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

It does not have Torpedoes, but Texas Premium ship is great tier 5 AA ship any does not require high level captain.

 

just remembered that Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Tirpitz, Fletcher, and Gearing all have Torpedoes and AA that's good. 

 

At mid tier, Texas is probably the best AA ship. A 10 pt captain with BFT and AFT is all you need for captain skills to fully use its AA. You also need to equip the AA module. T4 and T5 planes melt. T6 and T7 planes can get to you, but they will pay a price in downed planes to get to you.

Graf Spee can have decent AA and good torps, but it is different and difficult to play.

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2 hours ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

I was playing as a pheonix cruiser the other day and i kept being wrecked by torps and planes. Can anyone suggest me a good ship(s) that is decent or excels at both torpedo tubes and aa defence. Thanks

The issue you're having is not due to the ship or the commander, it's due to the player.  Not a knock, but as a newer player in this game you haven't really experienced that much play against aircraft carriers and so you haven't learned to adjust.

What other people have suggested is exactly what you do: when you see the torpedo bombers approaching, you try to steer toward them.  You'll notice them making an abrupt course change and then fanning out in a line...this is their torpedo run.  You turn into the torpedoes, adjusting your speed as necessary, and at least at those tiers should never really take more than one hit from a torpedo squadron (and often none at all).  When you do take a hit, check to see if the carrier's dive bombers are close to you as well...if so, hold off on repairing your flooding until after the dive bombers attack, otherwise you run the risk of having one or more fires burning on your ship for their full duration.

If you've ever watched the movie "Dunkirk", there's a scene near the end which was based on an actual event: the captain of a small pleasure yacht, who had volunteered to sail across the Channel and help evacuate British soldiers stranded in France, was faced with a German aircraft which dove in to attack his ship.  He had no weapons on board, but by aggressively maneuvering the yacht each time the German tried to line up for a strafing run he was able to frustrate a total of three attempts before the pilot gave up and moved on (in the movie it's only one attempted attack).  That's exactly what you want to do against carrier planes in this game: don't wait until after the torpedoes are streaming through the water at you, but start dodging them while they're still on the planes.  Particularly against the low tier carriers you'll be facing in a Phoenix, which cannot manually control precisely when & where the planes drop, this is more than enough in an agile cruiser.

Until you've got that part down, you do not want to move up to higher tier ships--all the in-game AA in the world won't protect you if you don't know how to avoid what weapons do get launched.

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2 minutes ago, Harv72b said:

The issue you're having is not due to the ship or the commander, it's due to the player.  Not a knock, but as a newer player in this game you haven't really experienced that much play against aircraft carriers and so you haven't learned to adjust.

What other people have suggested is exactly what you do: when you see the torpedo bombers approaching, you try to steer toward them.  You'll notice them making an abrupt course change and then fanning out in a line...this is their torpedo run.  You turn into the torpedoes, adjusting your speed as necessary, and at least at those tiers should never really take more than one hit from a torpedo squadron (and often none at all).  When you do take a hit, check to see if the carrier's dive bombers are close to you as well...if so, hold off on repairing your flooding until after the dive bombers attack, otherwise you run the risk of having one or more fires burning on your ship for their full duration.

If you've ever watched the movie "Dunkirk", there's a scene near the end which was based on an actual event: the captain of a small pleasure yacht, who had volunteered to sail across the Channel and help evacuate British soldiers stranded in France, was faced with a German aircraft which dove in to attack his ship.  He had no weapons on board, but by aggressively maneuvering the yacht each time the German tried to line up for a strafing run he was able to frustrate a total of three attempts before the pilot gave up and moved on (in the movie it's only one attempted attack).  That's exactly what you want to do against carrier planes in this game: don't wait until after the torpedoes are streaming through the water at you, but start dodging them while they're still on the planes.  Particularly against the low tier carriers you'll be facing in a Phoenix, which cannot manually control precisely when & where the planes drop, this is more than enough in an agile cruiser.

Until you've got that part down, you do not want to move up to higher tier ships--all the in-game AA in the world won't protect you if you don't know how to avoid what weapons do get launched.

 

This is good advice @NAfishyCaptain Practice in co-op and then hop back into PvP to learn against people.

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Another voice to the "It's the player, not the ship" vote.

There is no ship in this game that handles airplanes and torpedoes on their own without the player paying attention. A ship just provides tools, it's up to you to use those tools. You can't just give an amateur carpenter a good quality hammer and saw and expect a top quality cabinet, can you - the same applies here.

Invest in captain skills that boost your AA. Learn to pay more attention to the mini map. And dodge torpedoes and plane squadrons preemptively, not reactively - IE, dodge them before they drop as explained above - if you wait until they're in the water you're too late.

This is (part of) the difference between a mediocre player and a good player.

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3 hours ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

Without commanders, is there any good torpedo and aa boat?

 

AAA is entirely dependent on captain skills. A full AA spec Nelson, (one of the worst defended BB's in the game), has equivalent AAA to a bare bones North Carolina, (one of the best defended BB's in the game). AAA specs generally add around a 4 times multiplier to effective AA power.

 

2 hours ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

It's rng if it hits, the dps is how often it roles for a hit, and the damage is how much it does when it roles a hit.

 

Actually no it's not, every aa tick a roll is made to see if the aura kills a plane, the higher the DPS vs plane health and the mor ticks since the last kill the higher the odds. @Sub_Octavian did give us the formulas involved but one of them is illegible and i'd prefer a couple of clarifications on the others even though i'm pretty sure i understand them right.

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27 minutes ago, Lert said:

Another voice to the "It's the player, not the ship" vote.

There is no ship in this game that handles airplanes and torpedoes on their own without the player paying attention. A ship just provides tools, it's up to you to use those tools. You can't just give an amateur carpenter a good quality hammer and saw and expect a top quality cabinet, can you - the same applies here.

Invest in captain skills that boost your AA. Learn to pay more attention to the mini map. And dodge torpedoes and plane squadrons preemptively, not reactively - IE, dodge them before they drop as explained above - if you wait until they're in the water you're too late.

This is (part of) the difference between a mediocre player and a good player.

 

@NAfishyCaptain, Lert knows the game backwards and forwards and he gives good advice. I also advise practicing in PvE until you get comfortable dodging bot planes and then work on humans. The bots tend to be predictable and are generally easier to dodge. They will cross drop on you, but not as much as humans will.

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An AA torpedo ship that you want right now: Omaha which comes after the Phoenix. Like you said.

Through it's hard to takes forever to get a ship with a combination of good AA and torpedoes and even then they may have cons you may not like, I recommend you adapt to fighting against CVs so things like:

1. Zooming out of sniper view and look around the sky every now and then to see where the torpedo bombers are.

2. Looking at the minimap every now and then for them topedo bomber icons too.

3. Sailing away or directly towards torpedo bombers but not sideways onto them when they are about to attack you.

Learn those skills and your need for AA will matter less.

Edited by Rolkatsuki

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5 hours ago, NAfishyCaptain said:

I was playing as a pheonix cruiser the other day and i kept being wrecked by torps and planes. Can anyone suggest me a good ship(s) that is decent or excels at both torpedo tubes and aa defence. Thanks

It's literally going to come down to what CV are you facing that match. A tier 4 or 5 CV, you can do some damage without trained captains, not delete planes though, least not on your own. If Dive Bombers are approaching you, start weaving back and forth unless they have Torpedo bombers with them (if you have to be hit by one, especially at that tier, you wanna be hit by the DB's). TB's of tier 4 and 5, you have to pay attention and judge what angle they are attacking from. Many don't understand how to properly use auto drops and will come straight from the side, aiming where you are, not where you are going to be, and turning into them will minimize or avoid the hits. However, against a player like me that knows how to use them, we angle the strike to come from the stern more (or bow if your in reverse) which means the torps sail with you or, if you turn into the attack your turning your broadside into the torps, making the best defense for that attack to actually be turning away from the planes.

CV is tier 6 or higher though, your basically screwed because the CV still has access to "Manual drop" - a mechanic that allows the CV players to drop torpedoes from planes about 1 km (if it's maneuvering, 0.8 km if it's not reacting at all) from a ship where, realistically, short of the rare misjudgment of experienced CV players you can't possibly dodge it. Your only hope is that they misjudged range, turn into the attack, and hit them before they arm. It's a mechanic that's been an issue even before the game went live and has only done more damage to balance than good for game play (partially because people were screaming they couldn't score hits with auto drop, when some of us were doing 200k+ with it). Wargaming for 2 years of live release and counting has failed to acknowledge beyond "buff AA, nerf CV planes", which has not helped anyone in the long run. And there is likely no "soon" fix for that because, as I just said ignored it mostly the last 2 years, and you have the community torn as there are those that claim it requires skill and that CV's are useless without it, and others that think it doesn't require skill, may require some skill, but is too OP, and disagree that CV's are useless without it. Between that and, despite claims to the contrary by them, Wargaming seems to have no idea what to do about CV's, CV's are a mess. Because while your Omaha is struggling to down planes and survive at times, CV's are encountering BB's and cruisers that decimate their limited supplies of aircraft.

 

As someone that plays all 4 classes, but focuses more on CV's and BB's, your best defense is teamwork. If you can find a better AA ship like Texas, Cleveland, etc - try and stick with them. If not, just find any non DD at that tier (not till tier 6+ USN offers any real air defense on the DD line) because 2 ships do way more damage than one. Even if I'm top tier in my CV, if a team is in groups, I usually can't attack them unless a ship is separated enough/on it's own to try and minimize the losses I'll take from AA. Work as a team, CV may never even get to strike, at least not effectively. Teamwork is more OP than any ship, mechanic, buff or nerf you can give them. But yeah, AA is a fickle thing because it's either (the wiki has 2 versions of the calculation) DPS of all AA in range x bonuses/HP of planes x bonuses (the one, based on performance, that seems more accurate) or DPS of each "ring" of AA (so, say, 5 inch guns at 4.5 km, then at 3.5 km it's them and the 40 mm guns calculated separately) and the bonuses/Hp of planes and those bonuses. And that becomes % chance per second you down an enemy plane. Bad luck, a tier 8 can somehow only down 1-2 tier 6 planes. Good luck, personal example, isolated in my Arizona a Saipan kept sending his TB's at me  (Tier 9 planes) and despite AZ not having the best AA, my tier 6 ship was downing some of his planes (and in his arrogance while the match ended before I could do much, I got close enough to spot him myself and fire on him between that and dodging).

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