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TL_Warlord_Roff

Going no smoke. A Gamer's story

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  The IJN Line has 3 ships on the primary line that can run no smoke and have the Torpedo Reload Booster in its place.  Shiratsuya,  Kagero, Yagumo.

And as a nice bonus there's the HSF Harekaze premium that can also run this option.   I'm getting spoiled..  I'm doing quite well on these ships running with out smoke (Harekaze got me to to rank 5 this just finished season. did very well!)  I wanted to share what got me there.

We activate the way back machine here to after the IJN DD line spit and the change to the TRB so it worked the same on all ships that had it on the IJN line.  I wanted to drive IJN DD's in competitive play (read "Supremacy League") .  The problem is that the IJN DD's lost to much to the Benson's and Lo Yang's DD's in overall utility.  For Supremacy League  the tier of play was VIII, with 9 player teams limited to a single carrier, no more then 3 BB's, no more then 3 DD's, of which only 3 ships total on the team could be premiums, and only 3 ships could use smoke.   We had to make call on what we could field,  but we did want to make sure we could have a Kutazov premium and that ship packs smoke.  A solution was needed.  We give up one Gearing to take a Kutazov.  I got to build a no smoke Kagero and make it work.  It took a bit but eventually I found a build that worked consistently well while I was learning the tactics to make it work on top of everything else.  I HAD to go have a documented unicum day in the ship before the team would let me drive it regular.  I did, and became the "Go-To" Kagero driver for the team.

What I settled on ran RPF along with CE (yep shelled out doubloons to put a 19 point commander in and retrain em specific to the ship and her set up) and I had the upgrade that extend the engine boost period by 50%  (when it's time to run, you want to run as fast as you can and that means under boost and you don't want to run out of speed at the wrong moment!) The rest of the commander build was pretty conventional for IJN DD's.  Anything to allow me to do what can do faster and better.

I ended up with a sneaky git of a Kagero that had enhanced scouting abilities with the RPF (when I screen a flank.. it's screened!) that could launch 4 quad racks of torpedo's in a hurry if it had to but also had the luxury with all those racks to do some fairly serious movement interdiction.  Remember this was a team play format with everyone on voice comms, communicating and coordinating their movements and action...at least in theory!.  I ended up developing a bit of technique for lack of a better word to use what I had best (and yea I had to get way better or it was gonna be another season bench warming!) and got pretty adept and single rack, single target.. long rang prediction and interdiction..(torps out at distant closing targets..you want the torps to be seen.. it's a "oh you don't want to drive here" sign)    enemy team crowded together in a tight-battle-ball-under-smoke and me with a clear shot..... and TRB off cool down. 

The last season just before the premier clan battle season I got my moment and it was a good  moment.   An opposing team packed behind the airfield island on Neighbor's holding A and contesting B. IN a protected cluster under smoke blazing away.   I had the angle and an utterly clear lane of fire.  I lines up knowing how the islands and channels lay'd out and released 4 racks worth.. 16 fish.  I landed 7 out of 16 torps fired, Detonating a Kutazov which took 2, crippled 2 DD's (1 torp each) that panic ran from the smoke to die under the guns of the two Benson's on my team and the last three hit a pristine North Carolina who stated for the record that he hated me (Yosemite Sam voice "You're dispicable"..    It was a very good moment.   Later on we even tried dropping to one Benson, my no smoke Kagero and 2 Kutazov, a Chappy, and they typical raft of BB's and CV.   Which worked rather well surprisingly even though I did have to work much harder.   We ended our season 8 and 4 which was frankly way better then we'd expected.

I look at smoke much differently now in the game.   It just depends on the situation in a match, the ship mix and more.  And for myself it right up there with spec'ing for AA defense which really bring us to THE question you must ask yourself when setting up a ship and commander.

"Do I want to have a capability that may be rendered useless by the situation, or do I want whats going to give me more over all utility?"

Your no smoke options IJN DD  optiona are at tier's 7,8 and 9 (maybe eventually 10)

Utility won.

   If you get into a high tier match that doesn't have radar and ships with long range hydro count yourself blessed!  The stuff is everywhere and if there's a CV in the match it's worse.   (if your in a DD and a CV wants you dead..chances are your gonna be dead shortly and that is that.  You may cosy him a significant number of aircraft but you'll still be sunk short of an act of god!).  The higher the tier the more difficult it is to operate in a firing hide (your own smoke) because of all the additional ways of finding you, and getting pinned under your own smoke is pretty much THE definition of a bad day.    Smoke can attract torps, or enemy DD's  and cruisers (and the occasional BB)  looking to be the cat after a mouse.  Smoke just isn't as useful as it is in the lower tiers and has a great many more limiting factors on it's use.  It can and  is being used quite well by many players, but you also tend to surrender initiative in some way when you do use it.    

when it comes to utility on a no smoke ride  I cannot recommend sufficiently strongly that you take RPF.  To no smoke drivers you might consider taking it over concealment expert as you work up your commander.  It is that useful.  It can give you the critical early warning if your paying attntion that someone is objecting to your presence and want to sneak up and put a torp up yer but along with some gunfire or ene that there is a ship in position to possible contest the cap your trying to snatch    It's that much more information of whats about you for giving up usually no more then .6 Km of concealment.  As I've gotten more comfortable using RPF I find I typically have sufficient concealment to do the job which is get myself to where I can use my torps and/or the presence of my ship more effectively.  RPF also makes that just a little easier as you skate in at the edge of THEIR detection and you see them and they don't see yet see you. Full concealment just makes the job even easier.  Life does get easier when word get passed about "Don't chase that DD unless you like getting ambushed!"


 So that's how I've come to carry the word of No-Smoke IJN DD's.  Your best tools are your low detection ratings and your torpedo's range and warhead.  They're neither the fastest nor stealthiest.  Nor are your ships are not the fastest, or the toughest of DD's.  Your guns are hard hitting, but it's difficult to use them well due to poor turret traverse characteristic in all but the HSF Harekaze premium and the Akizuki (the IJN Hybrid gun boat, and the IJN Gunboat DD).    You DD smoke is the worst DD smoke in the game as it is.  Nor are IJN DD's the most nimble.     But the torpedo are solid with good range and IJN DD's are pretty much the sneakiest. 

 

Hope I gave ya'll some food for thought.  IJN DD's these days are THE single most difficult DD type to drive and do well in.   The game has changes so much over the 2 years since launch that those once clear IJN DD advantages are long gone.   Yep.. up to tier 7 we were once OP.  Tiers 8 and 9 were a semi painful grind with ok ships with the terror of the seas Shimikaze waiting at tier X.  Shima is still there, and still scary but she's got a lot more competition then she used to with even more due this year.  She has been loosing ground in the power race so steadily that there has been talk and some testing with giving her a torpedo reload booster option also.    That could be quite interesting.

NO smoke Shimmy running about and the only time you see 'em is when he opens up with guns to finish a cripple, assuming that they might even need to. 6 firings of 5 torps each.  You better know your no smoke tactics and uses before you try it though if it becomes a thing

 

Warlord Sends.

 

 

 

   

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Running without smoke is a great build in random battles.  I run with TRB on Yugumo, Kagero and Shiratsuyu.   At first teams were upset with a smoke-less DD, but after the smoke nerfs nobody complains.  Of the three, the Yugumo has the best balance because its guns are quite a bit better than Kagero and Shiratsuyu.  This doesn't mean that the others can't hold their own, gun-wise - you just need to be careful.  The limited gun range for the Kagero is actually blessing because you can skip in/out of detection range easily, yet at 9.4km the guns are still reasonably accurate.  

As an example of the potential for TRB, here's a game from my Kagero from a few days ago.  Gets a bit exciting in the last couple of minutes.  The replay shows how both TRB and IJN guns can bring down battleships...    

https://replayswows.com/replay/15681#video

 

 

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I have found RPF useful on my stealth DDs but I'm not sure it is worth taking BEFORE CE. Out spotting the red DDs is critical, especially if you don't have smoke. Being spotted by an unseen DD (even if RPF shows you what direction it is) can really ruin your day. The Shiratsuyu does not have the speed (even with speed boost) to get away from a determined DD pursuer (unless it is another Shiratsuyu). Most of the line are not really speed demons compared to the competition. If CVs are involved, this gets even more critical as that little bit extra concealment may  be just what you need to stay unspotted (turn of the AA!!).

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I don't even run the AA on no smoke ships, it's so inconsistent.  Only when the planes have me spotted to release the AA. The only way really to deal with air solo is to run early.

The main thing with a no smoke TRB ride is you really have to get a cycle going of observe, plan, move to attack, Attack,  withdraw reevaluate and re-position and re-engage.  I call it a saber dance. in strike out, in strike out in strike out.   

No smoke ships are all about the attack..  Your only defense is distance.  If you run the Harekaze you can get a little more aggressive in your movements as there not really that many who want to go toe to toe in a gun fight with one.  It's a crap shoot with even odds for any other DD out there  (ie: a fair even fight.. recipe for disaster!)

SO be aware that the opposing DD boldly charging your no smoke DD unless they're an utter tyro likely have someone close nuff to support.  Because the last thing any non brain dead DD skipper wants is a fair fight.  Heck with that, gimmie advantages!

Note in the other copy it was noted that giv'n a choice in a commander skill build if I've only a 10 point commander for no smoke DD I'd take RPF over concealment and there actually a vrery good reason for this which you might just want to think a little bit about.  And this is thinking long term too. 

If you take the RPF first and wait till you hit 14 point on your commander to get CE that means your going to spend a week to a month or more in your no smoke DD having to be extra careful about your distance.  It's a habit and skill for this configuration you have to develop anyway and taking the RPF first forces you to get on with the learning of it while still having a fairly useful extra sensor in the form of RPF.    Sometimes doing it the "Hard" is the better way.  But you have to look beyond the short term  benefits and what your trying to accomplish.

JFK made a speck committing the US to putting a man on the moon before the end of the 1960's.."We will do this, that and the other things not because they are easy but because they are hard"   Turned out to be a mighty fine idea.. the rest of the world is still playing catch up to american technology that got one hell of a boost from the space program.. not because it was easy but because it WAS hard.

Advice form the 60 year old great hunter male around the tribal campfire to the young hunters.  DO it the hard way.  The skills and tactics you learn from it will hold you for the rest of the time in your life you play world of warships.    

CE is important to the build but if you can learn to use the ship without it, think of how much more effective you will be when you do have it.  That and RPF on your DD is useful to your entire team even if they don't know about it.  (let em know of any hi threat contacts though)  ... the other reason is to generate surprise..  

A opposing stealthy DD suddenly pops up but you saw him on RPF and had guns pointed the right way first.. a little correction and a salvo is off and 9 times out of ten you'll not only have gotten the first salvo off, but with a good chance of having that first salvo land on target. 

You drive a DD.  Whats you first reaction when shells land on you before you've gotten a shot off?  I know what mine is and I'm pretty normal there.  It's panic dance on the WASD keys time!  it's a normal reaction.  Always remember your playing human players for the most part (only bots never flinch!) and they make mistakes.. Do try to encourage your opposition to make more of them! To do that you have to use every weapon in your arsenal  (even the ones that aren't damage dealers)

Your gotta get sneaky, yer gonna get stealthy, and learn the way of the Ninja boat.  How to see and never be seen.  How to keep your distance so radar and hydro can't pin you, yet sufficiently close to dart in a drop fish. 

 

Oh And one last little bit.. kinda of a good news.. When you hit the tier IX Yagumo you have some torpedo options.. my no smoke Yugumo I run the 12k torps as I tend to be a sit back and snipe type though there is much to be said about using the 8k torps with the 76 knot speed.  But the 12k give you the option of dropping torps from out side of anyones radar range.

Glad you guys enjoyed this!

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There are so many interesting ways to play, it's fun to try new techniques with different ships! 

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I can absolutely see how RPF might be a valuable skill in competitive play, but for Randoms I still hold to my belief that it's a wasted 4 points.  Map knowledge and your own situational awareness should tell you where the enemy ships generally are 90% of the time or more in Random battles, and even that one time in ten that you do get surprised it's usually going to be by some potato destroyer that's been riding the border into your spawn and isn't aware that his ship has guns.

I have tried RPF on my destroyers before, both gun- and torpedo-oriented ships, and every time I could easily find some other, more valuable place to invest those 4 skill points.

Also, can we just make it clear that you can still cap in a smokeless destroyer, particularly something as stealthy as a Kagero or Yugumo?  Had a match yesterday where it was 2 DDs per side, with me in my Trashkent (also smokeless because heal) and a Yugumo on my team.  I see him moving toward the border & tell him he's gonna need to help cap and he says "no smoke, sorry".  :Smile_facepalm:  We lost, but I did get 2 caps (and he got slaughtered by a radar cruiser without accomplishing anything).

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oh totally you can cap in a smokeless DD.. and in some ways it is easier.. because the bad guys cannot sneak up on you while your in your OWN smoke.. because you don't have smoke!  Which is good because smoke attracts torpedo's and it only take one or two to utterly ruin yer day

Just be aware to put your tail to the direction your most likely to get attacked from so you can run away (faster) if need with only the slightest of turns to get with a parthian torpedo shot and also to make sure you don't have any delay getting the aft turrets firing.   IJN DD require you to milk every single advantage the ships layout gives you.  Pay attention to what ya got, sometimes, it pretty subtle!  (also butt to the attacker.. means no time spent turning around!)

 

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You cannot cap in a smokeless DD (which means one of the T7-9 IJN DDs) unless there are one of two big conditions:

  1. The other side is filled with complete idiots
  2. There are no other high ROF/DPM ships around - meaning that they can get to the cap within a minute. 

Any semi-competent CA or DD player can easily push you off a cap if they're in the vicinity.  Fortunately, #1 is still semi-prevalent, and #2 happens fairly often in mid-late game.

 

And I say that capping a point successfully then losing it right away because an enemy re-caps it isn't really worth it - you just had to spend 90 seconds in an extremely small area, everyone knows where you are, and you've lost a massive amount of tactical utility.

Cap because you can reasonably think it's gonna stay yours for awhile. Or if you need to stop the enemy from accumulating points to win in a short period of time.  Otherwise, your utility is better spent in hunting and spotting.   In that respect, smokeless IJN DDs are pretty much identical to Russian DDs - you are an infrequent, opportunistic capper, and it's not something you should plan to do even semi-regularly.

 

 

4 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

oh totally you can cap in a smokeless DD.. and in some ways it is easier.. because the bad guys cannot sneak up on you while your in your OWN smoke.. because you don't have smoke!  Which is good because smoke attracts torpedo's and it only take one or two to utterly ruin yer day

 

Smoke should never be deployed by a DD capping (ANY DD capping) unless they have spotting support. If you don't have spotting support and you don't have high confidence in beating your opponent 1:1, then you RUN.   Of course, there's where hydro on DDs is really nice: you can be your own spotter.  The real utility of smoke in capping is (a) when you DO have spotting support OR (b) it aids in surviving, so that you don't get deleted by the 3 enemy CAs that just popped up. THAT'S why "smokeless" DDs are really in big danger, and why they are as poor a capper as Russian DDs:  even with a pre-planned route out of there, you run a VERY high risk of being deleted by any opposition before you can get to cover. 

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3 hours ago, EAnybody said:

You cannot cap in a smokeless DD (which means one of the T7-9 IJN DDs) unless there are one of two big conditions:

  1. The other side is filled with complete idiots
  2. There are no other high ROF/DPM ships around - meaning that they can get to the cap within a minute.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, except that I would change #1 to read "The other side is not filled with above-average players".  It might seem like semantics, but it's an important distinction; when you're talking about T7+ ships (which we are), it's extremely dangerous for any destroyer to challenge a cap early because of the amount of radar/hyrdro which is usually seen in these matches.  In that regard, whether or not you have smoke available in the first 3 minutes becomes entirely irrelevant, and all you should be worried about is the other team containing players who understand how to properly use radar and how to focus a destroyer when one gets lit up.

It is very rare nowadays when I will use smoke in conjunction with an early cap attempt, except as a way to cover my tracks when I retreat.  The reasons are obvious: you can never rely on a team full of randoms to spot for you, your smoke will generally attract every torpedo within two time zones, it tells radar cruisers exactly where they need to go before lighting you up, and it pinpoints your location far more than simply being inside the cap does.  Unless I'm in a KM destroyer and not up against a KM destroyer (Or Lo Yang), any time I feel the need to smoke up is also a time when I feel the need to get out of the cap...if my nearby teammates don't all immediately run behind the nearest islands and/or turn around & go flank speed back to the spawn, then I can always circle back in for another attempt.

So, yeah....when you're driving the stealthiest ship in the game (which will often be the case with IJN destroyers), there is absolutely no reason why you cannot attempt an early cap, particularly when there are no other true destroyers on your team.  Unless you potato your positioning really hard, you're going to be warned of any approaching destroyer long before they get inside your normal concealment range (when you see the meter stop ticking), so that becomes your cue to retreat at top speed and maybe dump your torps along the most likely approach route(s).  Even if you're still nervous about trying, most maps feature at least one cap with islands nearby which you can use to cover your retreat or, at worst, to wait out a radar.

Edited by Harv72b

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1 hour ago, Harv72b said:

So, yeah....when you're driving the stealthiest ship in the game (which will often be the case with IJN destroyers), there is absolutely no reason why you cannot attempt an early cap, particularly when there are no other true destroyers on your team.  Unless you potato your positioning really hard, you're going to be warned of any approaching destroyer long before they get inside your normal concealment range (when you see the meter stop ticking), so that becomes your cue to retreat at top speed and maybe dump your torps along the most likely approach route(s).  Even if you're still nervous about trying, most maps feature at least one cap with islands nearby which you can use to cover your retreat or, at worst, to wait out a radar.

Generally, yes, but one big caveaut there:  the way that WG has screwed up the detection range, IJN DDs are no longer the stealthiest thing around. Particularly in the T7 vs T8+ matchups,  you're almost guarrantied to be out-spotted by several of your US, PA, and even KM opponents.  And even when you're facing even tier stuff, the window is now so small (often 200m or less) that it's irrelevant - by the time you're moving again or can change directions, they've got you spotted, and they're almost always faster and/or more maneuverable than you. Or so close that it doesn't matter, since they can keep you spotted for 15-20 seconds, and that's more than enough time to die.  Even using the "contested cap" indicator isn't much help, because people are now getting smart enough to NOT enter from the exact opposite, and instead coming in from a side where the distance is smaller. Or, in the case of many DDs, they can just roar right through on full speed, and your 400m cushion (including the cap indicator) disappears in the time it takes for the game to draw the enemy DD on the main screen.

It's gotten so that IJN DDs really shouldn't try to cap at the beginning of the game, period (Harekaze with the US guns, the exception), if there's any possibility of an enemy DD showing up.  Their vaunted stealth advantage is either non-existant or so small as to be worthless, and they have no ability to fight back effectively. All you can do is flee and try to take the minimum damage possible. That's a crappy situation, which is why I almost never try to cap at the beginning of the game in an IJN DD anymore, except in unusual circumstances. 

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24 minutes ago, EAnybody said:

It's gotten so that IJN DDs really shouldn't try to cap at the beginning of the game, period (Harekaze with the US guns, the exception), if there's any possibility of an enemy DD showing up.  Their vaunted stealth advantage is either non-existant or so small as to be worthless, and they have no ability to fight back effectively. All you can do is flee and try to take the minimum damage possible. That's a crappy situation, which is why I almost never try to cap at the beginning of the game in an IJN DD anymore, except in unusual circumstances. 

I almost always try to cap in my IJN DDs, but whether I do or don't depends on many factors.  I rarely stop in a cap and never smoke up in those that have it.  You just have to have keen awareness and it can work. Otherwise, you need to escape fast and if you are spotted, resist the temptation to shoot back so you can hide again. Its an art...

B

Edited by bassmasta76

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7 minutes ago, EAnybody said:

Even using the "contested cap" indicator isn't much help, because people are now getting smart enough to NOT enter from the exact opposite, and instead coming in from a side where the distance is smaller. Or, in the case of many DDs, they can just roar right through on full speed, and your 400m cushion (including the cap indicator) disappears in the time it takes for the game to draw the enemy DD on the main screen.

I've seen other players skirt around a cap before entering, and I've done it myself many times...but I have not seen other players use this tact many times.  Certainly not during the initial cap rush at the beginning of a game; most of the high-tier maps are large enough that it takes a good amount of time to get to your spawn cap even going in a straight line, and when you start skirting the edge to come in from odd angles you run the risk of allowing your opponents an uncontested cap and/or running into a cruiser/battleship force that's barreling down the outside.  So, again, this is a possibility, but the vast majority of opponents you see, even at high tiers, either won't consider doing something like that or will skirt the cap specifically to find those battleships without giving advance warning of their presence.

I can 100% buy the potential for a random opponent to speed boost into a cap at the beginning of a game and then keep going straight through the middle of it, but again that's going to be a rarity and in this case having even a little friendly support nearby should be enough that you can make it a trade (at worst).  We're also both ignoring the reason why your IJN destroyer doesn't have smoke--with that reload booster you can spit enough torpedoes in his general direction to make any straight ahead pursuit very hazardous to his health.  What it boils down to is that I think you're preoccupied on worst-case scenarios which are very unlikely to occur in a Random battle (unless you recognize some names on the opposing team).  I'm confident that I can escape a contested early cap, even without smoke, at least 95% of the time...I'll lose some amount of health doing so (again, with or without smoke), but that doesn't much matter to me in an IJN destroyer as I can simply move on to my "normal" role while getting my torpedo reloads done a little faster thanks to Adrenaline Rush. :cap_cool:

At any rate, being placed on a team with a Trashkent (or similar "destroyer") as the only other DD on your team should certainly qualify as an "unusual circumstance". 

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15 hours ago, EAnybody said:

You cannot cap in a smokeless DD (which means one of the T7-9 IJN DDs) unless there are one of two big conditions:

  1. The other side is filled with complete idiots
  2. There are no other high ROF/DPM ships around - meaning that they can get to the cap within a minute. 

Damnit. I was doing it all wrong the whole time then ...
Why did nobody tell me before?

shot-18.02.04_16.25.56-0112.jpg

 

It's always the same people here on the forum crying how bad and incapable IJN DDs are. 

It's time to wake up. It's not the ships, it's you. 

Edited by tmGrunty

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You can cap in a smokeless DD just fine.. you just need to pay attention.  Are you supported?  Are you on your own?  Whats coming to challenge you taking the cap?  In a contested cap a DD that can smoke can find it a tad easier to get the cap  but one radar or hydro boat will end their glorious moment right there.  And it's usually a mistake.  Capping DD under smoke... Who's spotting what on the other side of the DD smoke because if the DD is hiding in the smoke then the DD cannot see either!    

Going no smoke is just a new set of skills to learn.  you give up a certain defensive tactical flexabily(that gets weaker and weaker in use as you go up the tiers) for more offensive utility and options, and adjusting your tactics to fit the changes in your ride.

I've found it a lot more fun, and a lot more exciting.  

 

 

 

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:20 PM, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

CE is important to the build but if you can learn to use the ship without it, think of how much more effective you will be when you do have it

Just figured this out in the Akatsuki.  I had a grand time in it while working up to Kagero.  Then I moved my captain up when I bought it, leaving the Akatsuki to start grinding commander's points from scratch.  It was painful figuring it out, but once I finally got back to 10 points and got CE back, it was like having shackles removed.  Yeah, I know it's still 6.4 km, but compared to 7.15 it feels like a massive improvement.  And the 38 kts is sooo refreshing after grinding Kagero and now Yugumo.

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I went no smoke after reading this and discussing with a clan mate.  Not going back..worked well for me.  Then, I got to Shimakaze for CB and wish I had the TRB option.  Smoke can be useful for other things besides hiding...smoking your team mate is great, and it can also be used when you're nowhere near any longer for making the red team stare at it and wonder what's in there and maybe waste their torps on emptiness. 

Layers and levels of strategy...

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From the OP:  Came back to visit the thread.

  Pretty obviously there really is no one pat answer.  Going no smoke for more offensive capability can work very well, but you do have to exercise caution and good judgement.  when going for a cap you may have no other options but to either run (and you might want to save that speed boost for running away instead of trying to get there faster)  , or go all out on the attack.   Considering how often the capping DD'S have zip diddly in the form of supporting fire, your options tend to be limited.    Note here that often times running all out for an early cap leaves any supporting ships in your wake assuming they do move up behind you which is often the case NOT going to  happen.  Especially if the cap your going to is "distant" from the teams spawn point.    Partially it players just not understanding or grasping that there are tactics to cap capture..  I've gotten bitched out my team members when I have turned away from cap because the closest friendly ship was more then 8 km behind mem, and driving behind an island for cover and frankly to doggone far back and out of position for timely accurate fire on any ship apposing the cap attempt.    And the situation is the same even if you take smoke, especially in a tier 8 to 10 match.  The only way any DD can garenteeably take a cap without CLOSE support is no have no one opposing the cap attempt.   (the other reason I tend to run RPF is so I can get into the cap and know what might be close.. doesn't even matter what type of ship it is.  Just that it is there!)

 In the Harekaze I can often times run the opposition out because the 100mm  ROF is down right terrifying to many players, same same only with 60 more rounds per minute if your in a Akizuki.. but that ship does have smoke.   Kagero has good guns but not great guns, however if your running say RPF you can have those guns pre trained to get that critical first salvo off.  Same same with the 'Kat and the Yugumo.    Often time if you can land that first salvo on target it makes all the difference in the world.   Getting your hits in first does create a psychological advantage in the game just as it does in real life (one of the reason Modern US army tank are specifically trained are trained to land that opening shot ON target, even if its not a kill shot.)   Unsurprisingly, to me at least is that the same effect can happens in a game , with the same mental/emotional effect on a players as their real world counter parts would experience.    

 

No smoke is an option for some IJN DD's but you have to develop a new set of tactics, and ues, when you graduatre to the tier X Shimmy after running no smoke, it is a small bit of a chore to remember how to use smoke, when to use smoke, and when not to use smoke.  For myself I tend to mentally kind of switch into competitive/orginized play mode where my smoke is not my own but belongs to my team.  And of course unsurprisingly I do often use the smoke because I have to move up closer to opposing force to get effective torpedo use going because all them high tier CA and BB players are not pressing in in an aggressive manner.

Last time I heard "I need intelligence data" my answer was "Then get OUT from behind that island so you can shoot what I'm risking my [edited]to spot for you!"  (I thought the answer was so good That I have now macro'd! and hot keyed with an external macro app!)

The advantage of no smoke is it does NOT depend on your team mates actions.  Or good team work happening. Just  your own.

That by its self is I believe a pretty strong argument.  But I did start running no smoke originally so my supremacy league team could field a smoke cruisers in comp play while still running 3 DD's.  It proved so useful in tier VIII comp play that we ended up dropping the second Gearing so we could run 2 Kutuzov's (smoke cruiser) who would tend to stay close to the BB's anyway leaving the DD's free to go out and spot/snipe without needing to stay with the BB's to provide smoke.   Gave us that much more tactical flexibility in matches and served us rather well!   

Either way, running no smoke is risky but then what about driving IJN DD's isn't?  Especially when using your smoke at the wrong time and place where you can be radar'd gets you sunk too because you think your hidden when you might as well be buck naked in the open holding a sign that says "SHOOT ME!"  for all the defensive benefit it provides.

  Running no smoke simplifies a good many of your tactical options and this is a good thing because this is a WAR game, and in war, even the simple can be difficult!.. the hard tends to be down right "not gonna happen!"

 

 

 

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One of the downsides to RPF is that the target ship gets an indicator they are the closest ship to you. The savvy player will know there is an unspotted DD (probably, few other ships use RPF) out there. Time to move, WASD, pop radar, hydro, launch a spotter, etc. which can completely negate your surprise torp attack on that island camper. Still think it is a good skill for staying unspotted, but it is a double edged sword. Wish I could toggle it off.

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On 2/1/2018 at 7:54 PM, Harv72b said:

I can absolutely see how RPF might be a valuable skill in competitive play, but for Randoms I still hold to my belief that it's a wasted 4 points.  Map knowledge and your own situational awareness should tell you where the enemy ships generally are 90% of the time or more in Random battles, and even that one time in ten that you do get surprised it's usually going to be by some potato destroyer that's been riding the border into your spawn and isn't aware that his ship has guns.

I have tried RPF on my destroyers before, both gun- and torpedo-oriented ships, and every time I could easily find some other, more valuable place to invest those 4 skill points.

Also, can we just make it clear that you can still cap in a smokeless destroyer, particularly something as stealthy as a Kagero or Yugumo?  Had a match yesterday where it was 2 DDs per side, with me in my Trashkent (also smokeless because heal) and a Yugumo on my team.  I see him moving toward the border & tell him he's gonna need to help cap and he says "no smoke, sorry".  :Smile_facepalm:  We lost, but I did get 2 caps (and he got slaughtered by a radar cruiser without accomplishing anything).

RPF is great for two things: avoiding enemy DDs and hunting enemy DDs. For a TRB Yugumo avoiding red DDs is vital. For Z-52 hunting red DDs is your first love. RPF also helps with predictive torp launches for area denial and luck chucks. 

I don’t care how many battles you’ve played, you’re deluding yourself if you think you know what the enemy is doing 90% of the time. THEY don’t know what they’re doing 90% of the time. 

A BIG +1 on caps. Caps matter!  I Solo capped in Conqueror yesterday. It had to be done despite being painful. Every ship can cap. I play with a great CV player sometimes and he loves capping. I am sick and tired of “but I’m a ____ so I can’t cap”.

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