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Dr_Venture

Abruzzi - has Wargaming learned?

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So it's been several months since the tease of the Tier 7 Abruzzi. Since then the ship has not been released after several community contributors spoke ill of the ship. "It makes the Nurnburg look durable", "You will struggle with this ship" "Overtiered PERIOD" Since the sneak peak videos, this ship and any mention of it has vanished. This leads me to conclude that wargaming has indeed learned not to release DRASTICALLY underpowered premium ships (probably from a sales perspective.) 

What do you guys think? I'm interested in starting a discussion from a marketing perspective, and perhaps touch on the Abruzzi and it's future (if it has one.)

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the power difference between T7 and T9 (which a T7 can meet in MM), is too great. Eventually WG's going to separate the two brackets completely, quote me on it in a year.

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I wonder if they have thought about dropping the Abruzzi down to tier 6 or not? In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if they rethought releasing the Abruzzi because of sales. There are only very few die hards that would have bought it how it was when they were testing it (I may be one of them, but one of the few for sure)

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I wouldn't cry if the Duca lost some HP and DPM and got pushed down to tier 5 to make room for the Abruzzi at tier 6.

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Duca d’Aosta could comfortably drop to Tier V (with minimal changes no less), paving the way for Abruzzi to come in at Tier VI where it belongs.

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2 minutes ago, pastore123 said:

I wonder if they have thought about dropping the Abruzzi down to tier 6 or not?

I doubt that would happen since there's already a tier 6 Italian premium Cruiser, Duca d'Aosta.

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1 hour ago, NeutralState said:

the power difference between T7 and T9 (which a T7 can meet in MM), is too great. Eventually WG's going to separate the two brackets completely, quote me on it in a year.

IMO the most drastic power difference change is between T8 and T7. T9's upgrade from T8 compared to the T10's power leap is minor. Are you going to ask WG to separate T8 and T7 next? I hope not.

Plus, tier 7 got lots of excellent ships to deal with up-tiering. Gneisenau with basically tier 8 guns and armor fitting of a tier 8 bb, Leningrad that nobody can catch, stealthy and punchy Myoko with hitpoints befitting of a tier 8, KGV HE spam that ignores armor, Saipan and Kaga that smiles at  tier 9 bbs, and Belfast, which would be just fine even if sold as a tier 8 premium.

The matchmaking is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Learn to enjoy what you cannot change.

This is more about individual ships that need changes. Colorado and Nyagato with their ~20mm auxiliary hull that gets penetrated everywhere in particular.

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17 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

the power difference between T7 and T9 (which a T7 can meet in MM), is too great. Eventually WG's going to separate the two brackets completely, quote me on it in a year.

They will change it if I have anything to say about it. Which I have in the Past, Will in the Future, and am doing now in the Present. As far as Abruzzi goes and other premiums, this game is getting too expensive. The fact that I will never acquire the Flint and the Black because Ranked, just seems like a lesson in futility and the un-fun factor, outweighs my want for the for the ships. The game suffers from a lack of game modes. I like to play games solo (just me and good old AI) sometimes and would like to be able to play against people I know. Flashy kids stuff and fu-fu looks all cool and all but if the game wasn't good in the first place, people would move on. The Price creep on the ships is getting a bit overboard, I have all but 2 of the premiums that I could feasibly get as of 2018.  I think I will wait until Christmas crates to get the Premiums that I didn't buy all year this year, at a discounted rate and with 10 point Captains to boot.

THE GRIND, I can understand that the Grind has to be there so that people will spend money on the game. I have spent lots of money on this game. I might not be in first place for money on this game, but I am UNICUM at least in that aspect of this game, Deep Purple, top 10% and more likely top 5% and the grind aspect is still driving me away from the game. Spending money does't really save you that much of the grind.

Then of course you have Free Premium Ships doubloons and more bribes, being given to the People who stopped playing the Game. A Slap in the face for the people who paid money for them. I understand that it's an attempt to get more players into the game. Lets face it though, these are people who quit playing the game for a reason. A lot of them will come back to claim free stuff and a few might even play for a little while, are they gonna fork over more than a grand a year to play this game? Probably not. There is no recognition for spending money on WG but you get recognized if you don't? Really??? I forgot, we got kiddie stickers (Badges) for spending money, oh yeah wait, everybody gets those. How about everyone with Premium time, gets a button to turn them off, if they want.

The MM,  how hard is it to grasp that your player base is not liking something and that you are losing players because of it. I guess it isn't that hard to grasp since WG changed tiers 3 and 4 because of it. Did they learn anything? Apparently not, because they haven't fixed what they messed up yet and they haven't tried a 2 tier MM system yet.

The Question was, has WG learned? They learn, but it seems to take a really long time for them to do so. They are very stubborn about sticking with their ideas, instead of giving the people what they want. They really just need to learn a lot quicker and they seem to have trouble remembering what they previously learned and have to learn it all over again sometimes.

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I like Duca and I also hope to like Duca. However I don't believe either Duca or Duca will have tiers changed. Have there been any datamining of changes to Duca in the recent ST or PTS? Can't wait to get Duca to join Duca in the stable!

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I'm thinking I'm looking at 160+ hours worth of premiums to review right now and Abruzzi appears finalized which makes me terribly nervous -- both from a potentially weak release and from the possibility of being ambushed with a release with little to no warning.  We'll see.  Until they put her up for sale, anything can change.

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Premiums need to be reviewed by the community in P.T. and a thread should be put up to gather community thoughts. Prior to the P.T. put the ships in CC hands to review and test in the prior patches as they often do. Comments should be gathered and analyzed before the Premium ship goes live. I am looking forward to this ship, as Duca was my first prem.  Ships are reviewed nicely by Littlewhitemouse here, but by putting the ships in player hands on the P.T. wg would gain more feedback and would consider more changes. It takes a lot of people to get wg to change their minds on things we all know this.

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1 hour ago, BiggieD61 said:

I wouldn't cry if the Duca lost some HP and DPM and got pushed down to tier 5 to make room for the Abruzzi at tier 6.

Not that I would mind, but Duca has tier 6 written all over it. There is no way such an advanced ship is going to be sitting at tier 5. ffs you telling me an Omaha is supposed to be on equal footing with this thing?

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13 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I'm thinking I'm looking at 160+ hours worth of premiums to review right now and Abruzzi appears finalized which makes me terribly nervous -- both from a potentially weak release and from the possibility of being ambushed with a release with little to no warning.  We'll see.  Until they put her up for sale, anything can change.

Abruzzigate could be a possibility...the Italian ships have a certain "sizzle" to them...it's the most under represented MAJOR axis power right now...and boat sold could be a gold mine: if it is placed in the right tier and priced correctly

Abruzzi just seems like a shot in the dark when in reality it should have been an 8 inch gun cruiser.

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Eh...would have been best to just be prepared for a meh to garbage bote. This is why the Garibaldi name wasn't used, because that would have caused a riot.

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1 hour ago, pastore123 said:

I wonder if they have thought about dropping the Abruzzi down to tier 6 or not? In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if they rethought releasing the Abruzzi because of sales. There are only very few die hards that would have bought it how it was when they were testing it (I may be one of them, but one of the few for sure)

I could see dropping it based on what I saw in the WiP video it looked no more capable than the De Grasse at tier 6. Im often puzzled by the holes WGing digs for themselves when it comes to tiering ships. Graf Zeppelin comes to mind. Trying to shove a Tier 6 into tier 8 was just asking for trouble. Or Huang Meh what could have been a solid tier 5 is at 6 instead. SMH at them more often then not.

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1 hour ago, Sovereigndawg said:

The MM,  how hard is it to grasp that your player base is not liking something and that you are losing players because of it. I guess it isn't that hard to grasp since WG changed tiers 3 and 4 because of it. Did they learn anything? Apparently not, because they haven't fixed what they messed up yet and they haven't tried a 2 tier MM system yet.

The Question was, has WG learned? They learn, but it seems to take a really long time for them to do so. They are very stubborn about sticking with their ideas, instead of giving the people what they want. They really just need to learn a lot quicker and they seem to have trouble remembering what they previously learned and have to learn it all over again sometimes.

I don't know if WoWs is your first Wargaming title, or if you started with WoT like I and many others have.  The +2/-2 matchmaking is a lot older than just since open beta in WoWs - it's been a working thing in tanks for more than five years now.  So, in that regard, as long as you think it is taking them to learn, you could probably add five years.

Having gotten used to it in WoT, I was expecting it in WoWs.  I can't really think of a ship at tier 5 or above that has absolutely no chance of competing as part of the bottom tier of a battle.  Yes, since they shifted where +2/-2 begins, tier 5 can be somewhat brutal, but if you play it right, you can definitely contribute.

For good or ill, I think you can settle in for +2/-2 MM until the game goes away.  I think it is here to stay.  If you still intend to crusade for it, fair warning - if you shout for extended periods of time, your voice will get hoarse.

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47 minutes ago, SparvieroVV said:

Eh...would have been best to just be prepared for a meh to garbage bote. This is why the Garibaldi name wasn't used, because that would have caused a riot.

You know exactly what I think about that :Smile_teethhappy:

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I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again.

 

Abruzzi should have been a tier VI.

 

It's as simple as that. While I might personally argue that the ship is capable of competing against some of tier VII and VIII irl... This class was the equivalent of the La Galissonniére, and is a tier VI in WoWs's terms.

 

Duca d'Aosta won't be down-tiered to pave way for the Abruzzi - WG does not nerf premiums and certainly wouldn't drop one down a tier. However, the doesn't mean Abruzzi couldn't drop - although I doubt it will because WG doesn't want to overlap the sales of the ships.

 

I had my criticisms of how Roma was handled, although I think she's a solid, if perhaps slightly underpowered ship the way WG has done her. I'm not going to go crazy asking for buffs, although I do think that AA is a little "What?".

 

Abruzzi is a different story. If this is how WG plans to release her, than yeah, I'll be here raising hell. Why?

 

  • She had the exact same shells as d'Aosta, and yet WG has nerfed them by increasing their drag and AP Krupp (although very slightly for the latter). Ummm.....? Krupp I can understand for matching historical values, but drag???
  • They compensated Roma's belt as decapping isn't a thing in-game, and yet they refuse to do the same for Abruzzi. As a result her armor is barely better than just having a 100mm plate, versus the 150mm of armor it was judged to be equal to in reality. Just give her a solid 130mm and meet it halfway.
  • Her HE is too weak for her tier. It's just a fact. It's already weak enough at tier VI on d'Aosta, just barely workable. On a tier VII hull? PFFFFFFFFTTTTT. If you're not going to drop her a tier, at least give her 1/4 penetration so IFHE doesn't have to be a mandatory skill so you can do damage, at the cost of destroying what little fire chance you have to begun with. We have to run around with 4% FC just to do damage reliably to higher tier ships? 6% with DE? Really?

 

I'm not gonna lie, when I saw Abruzzi being picked for tier VII, the only way I was able to rationalize her being chosen, not only as a tier VII, but over her far more famous and loved sister Giuseppe Garibaldi, was because Abruzzi carried radar while Garibaldi didn't, but that's obviously not the case. Not gonna lie though, it would be interesting to see what's essentially d'Aosta with Radar, even at the cost of being tier VII...

 

As much as I love this class of light cruiser, and even though this is probably going to be their only incarnation in WoWs...

 

If this is how they're releasing AbruzziI will not be buying it.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

For good or ill, I think you can settle in for +2/-2 MM until the game goes away.  I think it is here to stay.  If you still intend to crusade for it, fair warning - if you shout for extended periods of time, your voice will get hoarse.

True that, and part of the reason that I have been playing WOWS a lot less lately. That and I can buy Assassins Creed bundle (All but the latest release) for $99 and be busy for months since I have never played it before. Like I stated previously, it's nice to just play solo against the AI sometimes. It would be great in randoms but you never know if you are going to have a team or not and it is aggravating to play when teams won't work together. I will play this game as long as it's here, but I don't think I will be spending anymore money on it.

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6 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again.

 

Abruzzi should have been a tier VI.

 

It's as simple as that. While I might personally argue that the ship is capable of competing against some of tier VII and VIII irl... This class was the equivalent of the La Galissonniére, and is a tier VI in WoWs's terms.

 

Duca d'Aosta won't be down-tiered to pave way for the Abruzzi - WG does not nerf premiums and certainly wouldn't drop one down a tier. However, the doesn't mean Abruzzi couldn't drop - although I doubt it will because WG doesn't want to overlap the sales of the ships.

 

I had my criticisms of how Roma was handled, although I think she's a solid, if perhaps slightly underpowered ship the way WG has done her. I'm not going to go crazy asking for buffs, although I do think that AA is a little "What?".

 

Abruzzi is a different story. If this is how WG plans to release her, than yeah, I'll be here raising hell. Why?

 

  • She had the exact same shells as d'Aosta, and yet WG has nerfed them by increasing their drag and AP Krupp (although very slightly for the latter). Ummm.....? Krupp I can understand for matching historical values, but drag???
  • They compensated Roma's belt as decapping isn't a thing in-game, and yet they refuse to do the same for Abruzzi. As a result her armor is barely better than just having a 100mm plate, versus the 150mm of armor it was judged to be equal to in reality. Just give her a solid 130mm and meet it halfway.
  • Her HE is too weak for her tier. It's just a fact. It's already weak enough at tier VI on d'Aosta, just barely workable. On a tier VII hull? PFFFFFFFFTTTTT. If you're not going to drop her a tier, at least give her 1/4 penetration so IFHE doesn't have to be a mandatory skill so you can do damage, at the cost of destroying what little fire chance you have to begun with. We have to run around with 4% FC just to do damage reliably to higher tier ships? 6% with DE? Really?

 

I'm not gonna lie, when I saw Abruzzi being picked for tier VII, the only way I was able to rationalize her being chosen, not only as a tier VII, but over her far more famous and loved sister Giuseppe Garibaldi, was because Abruzzi carried radar while Garibaldi didn't, but that's obviously not the case. Not gonna lie though, it would be interesting to see what's essentially d'Aosta with Radar, even at the cost of being tier VII...

 

As much as I love this class of light cruiser, and even though this is probably going to be their only incarnation in WoWs...

 

If this is how they're releasing AbruzziI will not be buying it.

 

 

 

I love how my D'Aosta looks, but I don't touch it anymore because of how bad it is.

The guns simply do not make sense - slow reload for how few of them you have, horrendous, embarrassing HE (that means you can really only hurt cruisers/DDs), funny-but-typically-useless torpedoes, AP that's only worthwhile if the enemy cruiser is broadside. I don't like ships that can't effectively combat the most popular ship type in WoWs - that's a waste of my time, and a degradation of win percentage. I only play boats I can carry in - if the ship doesn't have the capacity to carry, it's dead to me. And ol' scratch'n'sniff, putter about the edges hoping not to get noticed D'Aosta isn't going to meet my criteria. And, from the looks of things, Abruzzi is just the same thing made worse.

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The problem of Duca degli Abruzzi is the overtiering. With Duca d'Aosta at VI (instead of V, where she belongs hard stats wise) she doesn't have room to fit. At tier VII she is quite underwhelming while at VI would be pointless (due to there's already a tier VI premium and you can't downtier Duca d'Aosta, it would cause a massive refund)

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