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BullpupWOT

May I have some analysis?

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I've only had a handful of battles in tier 5 so far, in a sense picking and choosing once every 15-20 battles.  I was wondering if some of you could take the time to analyze this tier 7 battle I just had in my Marblehead.  I feel like it wasn't "awful", per se, but would like to get feedback on where I may have lost my way resulting in my death.  Thank you to any that take the time.  Cheers, Bullpup

 

20180131_104532_PASC044-Marblehead-1924_13_OC_new_dawn.wowsreplay

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I'll see if I can download it and record it for my replay theater...  though with SL/KOTS, I've had some real trouble with finding time to do replay commentaries...

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7 minutes ago, Lord_Zath said:

I'll see if I can download it and record it for my replay theater...  though with SL/KOTS, I've had some real trouble with finding time to do replay commentaries...

thanks...:Smile_great:

6 minutes ago, Spooooooooooooooooooooon said:

Marblehead is a tough row to hoe at tier 7

yes...that's why I'd like a "you did this well" and "you did this stupidly"

i'm pretty sure I just spammed HE once I saw it was tier 7

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12 minutes ago, Spooooooooooooooooooooon said:

Marblehead is a tough row to hoe at tier 7

Heck, Marblehead can be a tough go at T5 sometimes.

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31 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

yes...that's why I'd like a "you did this well" and "you did this stupidly"

i'm pretty sure I just spammed HE once I saw it was tier 7

I think what Spoo[snip]on and Ace are getting at is that even if you play a very careful game, even if you do almost everything right, an Omaha-clone in a tier 7 game is particularly vulnerable.  It is such a fragile cruiser...

Downloading the replay, I'll take a look and see if I can spot anything.  I'm not a great player, but hindsight is usually 20/20 so I might have some feedback you can use.

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Oh, I missed @Lord_Zath on this thread!  I hope he posts this on his YouTube channel.  I'm interested to see if he comes up with some of the same stuff I have and what he sees that I missed.

I watched and noted in a text file, pausing as I had input.  Here it is:

Spoiler

18:30: You're too far north.  You could be with the Nicholas, much closer to the islands at B/C;2/3.  This would give you island cover for taking early shots on the red Omaha and T-22.  Just - if you do this, be aware of the southern approach, as that Colorado would be able to fire on you if you're not covered from him.

17:30: AP salvos out on Colorado.  Good to get your guns warming up, should have been on HE from the git go.

16:40(ish) - You had a good lead on the CO, then your shells start falling behind.  My gunnery can be much worse than this, it should improve with time.  Right around this time, the enemy starts capping A but no red ship spotted in the cap circle.  If you were closer with your Catapult Fighter in the air, you could have flushed the capper out.  It's a bit higher risk, but your team seems to have been halted trying to get that cap.

14:40 - 14:20:  I think the smart play here is to back your Shiratsuyu heading to B.  I know the red Belfast is coming northwest to meet you, but there are islands between the two of you, and your Fubuki is also approaching from the west flank.  Between the two DD's, you should have ample vision, and once the BB's finish up what they're doing at A, they should be along to help you.  Stay on the north side of the islands at E5&6 and you should have cover both from the south and from the east.

13:10(ish):  You turn your guns from the Konig in the south to the Colorado in the east - skipping over the Atlanta and the Belfast.  You should target one of those cruisers instead of the battleship.  Plus, you're retreating from the action, and in a position where both of those cruisers could turn their guns on you.

12:20:  Something is spotting you, but no red ships are visible.  This is the kind of thing that should have you asking yourself 'who can see me, and where are they at?'.  I don't know the answer (I'm writing as I watch), but at least I know to ask the question.

12:09: It was the Atlanta.  If he starts shooting, WASD - even at medium range his shells hang high enough you ought to be able to get out from under 'em.  (He didn't.)

11:50: Lots of reds on the east side.  The further south you go here, the more you want to be on the west side of the islands on the 5/6 line there at B.  Cover up!

11:00:  You got a kill on the Atlanta, good job!  You could have gunned him down more quickly if you'd realized earlier that he was stuck on that island.  You did a decent job of ducking his return fire.  The only thing you've done wrong here is finish the fight on very low throttle out in the open.  And seeing as how you're taking fire from a BB to your broadside, it could very easily be a game-ending mistake.

10:40 - 10:20: Here you should have kicked up your throttle, laid over on the rudder and gotten west of the islands I mentioned in the 11:50 blurb.  You continue to get productive shots on the Konig (which is good), but you continue to sail into exposure to the unspotted enemy fleet to the west, giving a Graf Spee and Duke of York free access to your broadside.

10:10: DoY punishes that broadside with a citadel hit.

10:00: Cut throttle?!?!? [wince/cringe]

9:42: [ka-BOOM] ...aaaaaaand scene.

Overall:  You ended on 2 kills, both tier 7 ships.  You had less than your HP in damage, but since you died with a fire burning on that Konig, your damage total ends up going up over your ship's HP.  You lasted just over half the match timer at bottom tier driving the WoWs equivalent of a zit.  You know how satisfying it can be to pop a zit?  An Omaha/Murmansk/Marblehead is a zit to every single BB - they can't help but turn their guns to try and make you pop.  While my critique does lay out some things I think you could have done better, [TL;DR] this was a solid game.

Well played.

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"ain't nobody got time for that"

 

Is this forum as well as WoWS' subreddit's official stance on viewing replays. 

 

Instead of replays, screenshots of your end game screen, first 2 tabs should be enough to evaluating a match.

Edited by NeutralState
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54 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

Oh, I missed @Lord_Zath on this thread!  I hope he posts this on his YouTube channel.  I'm interested to see if he comes up with some of the same stuff I have and what he sees that I missed.

I watched and noted in a text file, pausing as I had input.  Here it is:

  Reveal hidden contents

18:30: You're too far north.  You could be with the Nicholas, much closer to the islands at B/C;2/3.  This would give you island cover for taking early shots on the red Omaha and T-22.  Just - if you do this, be aware of the southern approach, as that Colorado would be able to fire on you if you're not covered from him.

17:30: AP salvos out on Colorado.  Good to get your guns warming up, should have been on HE from the git go.

16:40(ish) - You had a good lead on the CO, then your shells start falling behind.  My gunnery can be much worse than this, it should improve with time.  Right around this time, the enemy starts capping A but no red ship spotted in the cap circle.  If you were closer with your Catapult Fighter in the air, you could have flushed the capper out.  It's a bit higher risk, but your team seems to have been halted trying to get that cap.

14:40 - 14:20:  I think the smart play here is to back your Shiratsuyu heading to B.  I know the red Belfast is coming northwest to meet you, but there are islands between the two of you, and your Fubuki is also approaching from the west flank.  Between the two DD's, you should have ample vision, and once the BB's finish up what they're doing at A, they should be along to help you.  Stay on the north side of the islands at E5&6 and you should have cover both from the south and from the east.

13:10(ish):  You turn your guns from the Konig in the south to the Colorado in the east - skipping over the Atlanta and the Belfast.  You should target one of those cruisers instead of the battleship.  Plus, you're retreating from the action, and in a position where both of those cruisers could turn their guns on you.

12:20:  Something is spotting you, but no red ships are visible.  This is the kind of thing that should have you asking yourself 'who can see me, and where are they at?'.  I don't know the answer (I'm writing as I watch), but at least I know to ask the question.

12:09: It was the Atlanta.  If he starts shooting, WASD - even at medium range his shells hang high enough you ought to be able to get out from under 'em.  (He didn't.)

11:50: Lots of reds on the east side.  The further south you go here, the more you want to be on the west side of the islands on the 5/6 line there at B.  Cover up!

11:00:  You got a kill on the Atlanta, good job!  You could have gunned him down more quickly if you'd realized earlier that he was stuck on that island.  You did a decent job of ducking his return fire.  The only thing you've done wrong here is finish the fight on very low throttle out in the open.  And seeing as how you're taking fire from a BB to your broadside, it could very easily be a game-ending mistake.

10:40 - 10:20: Here you should have kicked up your throttle, laid over on the rudder and gotten west of the islands I mentioned in the 11:50 blurb.  You continue to get productive shots on the Konig (which is good), but you continue to sail into exposure to the unspotted enemy fleet to the west, giving a Graf Spee and Duke of York free access to your broadside.

10:10: DoY punishes that broadside with a citadel hit.

10:00: Cut throttle?!?!? [wince/cringe]

9:42: [ka-BOOM] ...aaaaaaand scene.

Overall:  You ended on 2 kills, both tier 7 ships.  You had less than your HP in damage, but since you died with a fire burning on that Konig, your damage total ends up going up over your ship's HP.  You lasted just over half the match timer at bottom tier driving the WoWs equivalent of a zit.  You know how satisfying it can be to pop a zit?  An Omaha/Murmansk/Marblehead is a zit to every single BB - they can't help but turn their guns to try and make you pop.  While my critique does lay out some things I think you could have done better, [TL;DR] this was a solid game.

Well played.

Thank you. 

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41 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

"ain't nobody got time for that"

 

Is this forum as well as WoWS' subreddit's official stance on viewing replays. 

 

Instead of replays, screenshots of your end game screen, first 2 tabs should be enough to evaluating a match.

Piss off. 

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@Fishrokk took the time to write up some stuff which I'm purposely NOT looking at for now (kudos to him for taking the time to do that though - awesome).  I will try to record the replay tonight, but a lot of that hinges on if I can get my 3rd container, how much time I have to spend with the wife, and if I have the hour or so needed before going to bed.  Sometimes it really sucks having to balance work and life.... and WoWs!!!!

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May you have some analysis?

I can recommend someone but she charges 5 cents.

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Given your technological...difficulties, I'm just surprised the link to the file didn't start with "C:/Games/World of Warships..."

 

:Smile_teethhappy::Smile-_tongue:

 

Honestly, though, looking forward to reading some folks' analysis of the game so I, too, can learn.

(We also need to div up again soon. :Smile_honoring:)

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10 minutes ago, MajorEnglush said:

Given your technological...difficulties, I'm just surprised the link to the file didn't start with "C:/Games/World of Warships..."

 

:Smile_teethhappy::Smile-_tongue:

 

Honestly, though, looking forward to reading some folks' analysis of the game so I, too, can learn.

(We also need to div up again soon. :Smile_honoring:)

Not sure if I'm going to ships or tanks tonight. 

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  • Weren't in the best position to support A, but neither was anyone at first
  • Began firing AP at nose-on BB, but then changed to HE
  • Needed a bit more situational awareness as you ran into ally (both probably contributed)
  • Let yourself get broadside to multiple enemy many times
  • Let yourself get in the open when there were islands around for cover
  • Fortunately you got help but team abandoned B in the process
  • Probably whirled around too much
  • Relatively speaking, you did well at hitting things and even finished off two ships
  • Did well at supporting the push back to B but got yourself overextended and killed

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, NeutralState said:

Instead of replays, screenshots of your end game screen, first 2 tabs should be enough to evaluating a match.

Weren't you just in another thread telling the poster that screenshots of his first two tabs wouldn't be enough to evaluate his match?

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16 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:
  • Weren't in the best position to support A, but neither was anyone at first
  • Began firing AP at nose-on BB, but then changed to HE
  • Needed a bit more situational awareness as you ran into ally (both probably contributed)
  • Let yourself get broadside to multiple enemy many times
  • Let yourself get in the open when there were islands around for cover
  • Fortunately you got help but team abandoned B in the process
  • Probably whirled around too much
  • Relatively speaking, you did well at hitting things and even finished off two ships
  • Did well at supporting the push back to B but got yourself overextended and killed

 

 

 

thanks

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8 hours ago, BullpupWOT said:

I've only had a handful of battles in tier 5 so far, in a sense picking and choosing once every 15-20 battles.  I was wondering if some of you could take the time to analyze this tier 7 battle I just had in my Marblehead.  I feel like it wasn't "awful", per se, but would like to get feedback on where I may have lost my way resulting in my death.  Thank you to any that take the time.  Cheers, Bullpup

 

20180131_104532_PASC044-Marblehead-1924_13_OC_new_dawn.wowsreplay

send it to flamu. he will do a good job and make it easily understood and entertaining

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Usual disclaimer: all of this is said with the benefit of hindsight, if I had been playing in the moment I doubt I could have pulled it off the way my feedback would suggest. However, criticism is how we get better, so that's what I've focused on here.

 

-You spend too long tooling around in the north, especially after it became clear the enemy was further south.

-Usually I would try to stay further away from the map border so that you can shoot at and support ships in both A AND C. Given that you were bottom tier in a squishy cruiser, it was probably reasonable to be more cautious at the beginning, but once it became clear that your team had an overwhelming advantage at C you would have done well to start drifting towards B (all the while continuing to fire at the colorado) so that you could cap it (since there don't seem to have been any enemies there) around minute 15:00.

-At the beginning you were consistently shooting behind the Colorado and not adjusting your shoots (also slightly too high).

-When there are lots of friendly ships and only a few enemy ships, those enemies will be forced to ignore some targets. Since there were a bunch of more threatening ships closer to the enemy Colorado you could easily have afforded to show much more side, getting far more of your guns to bear, without him shooting back at you (you could also have used this flexibility to push into B).

-fire AP at a broadside Atlanta.

-torps were pointless and could have hit friendlies.

-second spread of torps would have hit an island.

-Slowing down in front of enemy BBs only works once, because once you've stopped you can no longer dodge shells in any way. Instead, use the Marblehead's strengths: long range and a good rudder shift to actively dodge incoming fire. In order to do this, you MUST keep track of how many people are firing at you, which of them are BBs, what directions the BBs are firing from and when the BBs will be reloaded, so that you can dodge accordingly.

-When you pushed B you were the front line (not where a lower tier CL should be or where a Marblehead should be) facing multiple enemies. From being too passive you went to being too aggressive. Slowing down there was a TERRIBLE choice. It left you dead in the water, unable to dodge any more of the incoming fire or run away and made you a tempting target for all the enemy ships. Remember- you are one of the weakest ships there. If you don't make yourself the best target available, people will tend to ignore you. Particularly BBs tend to switch targets if you successfully dodge 1 or 2 volleys, because they are so desperate to make each volley count.

-Turning around once you'd committed to B would have been very hard, but possible if you had not slowed down. By watching when the 2 BBs that attacking you fired their guns, you could have timed it to show your broadside only to those who were in the process of reloading. The Marblehead is absolutely maneuverable enough to do this.

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4 minutes ago, _Dracarys said:

send it to flamu. he will do a good job and make it easily understood and entertaining

Do not do this if you scroll zoom.

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11 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

Usual disclaimer: all of this is said with the benefit of hindsight, if I had been playing in the moment I doubt I could have pulled it off the way my feedback would suggest. However, criticism is how we get better, so that's what I've focused on here.

 

-You spend too long tooling around in the north, especially after it became clear the enemy was further south.

-Usually I would try to stay further away from the map border so that you can shoot at and support ships in both A AND C. Given that you were bottom tier in a squishy cruiser, it was probably reasonable to be more cautious at the beginning, but once it became clear that your team had an overwhelming advantage at C you would have done well to start drifting towards B (all the while continuing to fire at the colorado) so that you could cap it (since there don't seem to have been any enemies there) around minute 15:00.

-At the beginning you were consistently shooting behind the Colorado and not adjusting your shoots (also slightly too high).

-When there are lots of friendly ships and only a few enemy ships, those enemies will be forced to ignore some targets. Since there were a bunch of more threatening ships closer to the enemy Colorado you could easily have afforded to show much more side, getting far more of your guns to bear, without him shooting back at you (you could also have used this flexibility to push into B).

-fire AP at a broadside Atlanta.

-torps were pointless and could have hit friendlies.

-second spread of torps would have hit an island.

-Slowing down in front of enemy BBs only works once, because once you've stopped you can no longer dodge shells in any way. Instead, use the Marblehead's strengths: long range and a good rudder shift to actively dodge incoming fire. In order to do this, you MUST keep track of how many people are firing at you, which of them are BBs, what directions the BBs are firing from and when the BBs will be reloaded, so that you can dodge accordingly.

-When you pushed B you were the front line (not where a lower tier CL should be or where a Marblehead should be) facing multiple enemies. From being too passive you went to being too aggressive. Slowing down there was a TERRIBLE choice. It left you dead in the water, unable to dodge any more of the incoming fire or run away and made you a tempting target for all the enemy ships. Remember- you are one of the weakest ships there. If you don't make yourself the best target available, people will tend to ignore you. Particularly BBs tend to switch targets if you successfully dodge 1 or 2 volleys, because they are so desperate to make each volley count.

-Turning around once you'd committed to B would have been very hard, but possible if you had not slowed down. By watching when the 2 BBs that attacking you fired their guns, you could have timed it to show your broadside only to those who were in the process of reloading. The Marblehead is absolutely maneuverable enough to do this.

thank you

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11 hours ago, Harv72b said:

Weren't you just in another thread telling the poster that screenshots of his first two tabs wouldn't be enough to evaluate his match?

I have that user on ignore for that very reason. Literally took one day on here to figure him/her out. :Smile_teethhappy:

On topic: This is a great community overall.

Honestly.

Watching the replay and then reading these comments is enlightening and will help more than just Bullpup. (And kudos to Bull for posting it in the first place in order to improve.)

:Smile_great:

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And here's your commentary, sir.  Hope it helps!  Looks like @Fishrokk and I weren't too far off!

 

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31 minutes ago, Lord_Zath said:

And here's your commentary, sir.  Hope it helps!  Looks like @Fishrokk and I weren't too far off!

 

Thank you very much!!  I'm still under 400 battles, so my awareness of where all the ships are and how close/dangerous isn't anywhere near there yet. This, and all of the other tips in this thread, have been very helpful. I have a long long way to go. Cheers

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