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Ulthwey

Clan Wars: Organizing clans/subclans so weak/casual/uncommitted players dont drag others down

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Clan Wars is coming soon and I'd like to hear how other clans have been dealing with an very important issue - organizing their clans/subclans for clan battles.

Having or allowing any and every person in the clan play clan wars basically guarantees that the clan will never reach Typhoon. For every 1 win by a good/organized team, the clan will suffer 3 losses because of the teams filled with casual/weak players. I am NOT saying clans should be restricting who can and cant play Clan battles, this is a free game, so everyone should technically be free to do as they wish. However some organization is always required when it comes to competitions.

What I want to know is how large clans (100+ people) have been handling this problem, particularly when organizing subclans for the purposes of playing clan battles more efficiently. Vast majority of clans in WoW have a significant proportion of players who want to play clan battles, but who are either:

  1. Casual players who dont really care if they win or not.
  2. Horrible players who have little to no skill at the game at all.
  3. Good players who are either unmotivated or cant make the time commitment for clan battles on regular basis.

What ALL these people have in common is that they all want to play clan battles even though they may not have the necessary skills or time commitment for it. So, my question is how to officers of the clans handle this problem? Obviously the ideal solution would involve every single clan member being a good player and fully committed, however for most clans this is just not possible. Most clans for better or worse don't have skill/stat requirements for recruitment. Therefore I have to ask.

  • Do they just let EVERYONE play, no matter how bad many of the players are, and just hope for the best?
  • Do they restrict who can play in clan battles according to stats?
  • Do they distribute weak/casual players throughout different teams playing clan battles so no team will have more than 1-2 bad players on it?
  • Do they create temporary competitive  subclans for the duration of the clan battle season exclusively for competitive players?
  • Do they move weak/subpar/casual players into secondary subclans where they can do whatever they want for the duration of the clan battle season?

Therefore, I'd like to hear some thoughts on how larger clans have been addressing these problems.

Edited by Ulthwey
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28 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

Clan Wars is coming soon and I'd like to hear how other clans have been dealing with an very important issue - organizing their clans/subclans for clan battles.

 

We all, big and small clans alike, are waiting to see/read the new and revised clan wars rulebook, that we are expecting, to avoid a repeat of the confusion, exploitation, recriminations and accusations of abuse by mega clans, (whether true or false). Until we see the new rules (regarding inter clan transfers, for example), we won't know. It goes without saying, mega clans (which are wholly unofficial, the official limit on clan membership being 50 persons), that deliberately engineer their victories via transfers (and other mechanisms) once CW is underway, are acting against the spirit of fairplay and honest competition.

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Well for myself I do not plan playing in Clan Wars, but if any of my clan wants to they can. My personal reasons are I do not like how Wargaming has set up Clan Wars it just feels like a version of Rank, what Wargaming should of done (IMO) was taken ideas from some the many MMORPGs - let the individual Clan Commanders issue /accept challenges from other clans, then the Clan Commanders agree/set on Tier Level - Tiers 4 to 10, and pick which members of the Clan would do battle.

This the Clans could plan more on who to bring, and what Clan to fight. The way it is now it just looks/feels like a version Rank Battles. Yes there would be time Clans would get "rolled" over by a more experienced clan, BUT say the less experienced clan did beat the "better" clan the rewards could be adjusted and they would have a lot bragging rights. 

Edited by Chaos_EN2

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I run my A team all the time, but tend to cycle in the players that need more experience. It's easier to train someone in cw when you only have to worry bout that one person. On top of this my clan is our A team clan so I generally have good players to chose from as well.

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I am by far the worst player in my clan, so I simply sit out most battles. That works for everyone. 

Edited by Taichunger

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Not sure if 40 players counts as a large clan, but we simply organize Clan Battles.

Those who want to play say so and get access to the information and team chats, and those who don‘t want to play respect the others enough to not derp around in Clan Battles.

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2 hours ago, Fog_Heavy_Cruiser_Takao said:

I run my A team all the time, but tend to cycle in the players that need more experience. It's easier to train someone in cw when you only have to worry bout that one person.

In my experience first season this was an effective way to handle it. We had a core group of competitive guys who could play regularly. On top of that we had a large pool of players who were more casual or used rentals. Our core group would start and we would rotate in and out during the period to allow everyone a chance to gain the oil bonus for their first 3 wins. And often we would have enough to run a couple mixed teams (regulars and casual) at the same time during clan battles

the result of this did keep our win percentage lower         BUT- gave some other positive results as well-

1) the more casual players learned new tactics and skills quickly. they often commented on how different the play style was and how much they enjoyed learning ships they didn't own yet.

2)the fun level was often higher when the regulars and casual players played together.. the tension of having to win every game was balanced with laughs and cutting up.

3)the clan grew in numbers when casual guys figured out they could play too.

4) overall the whole clan grew in spirit and friendship = guys started division-ing more, giving advice and info to each other, training rooms started to become more popular within the clan, people learned to get along better

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Now that we've mostly completed our harbors...   What is there to work for?

Trophy?  Few flags? 

Vast majority of clans know they will be XP piñatas' for clubbers to advance (last season was in waves as several made the trip from bottom to top multiple times).

Our goal last round was to build the harbor -- and we succeeded.  If there will be no social benefit for the 'medium skill levels' to taking all this abuse and beating...  many will not show up.

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In large clans, I assume many get left out that would like to participate based on them not being considered a top player in that clan? Any chance of clan wars implementing multiple entries per clan...they could use our new badges as Identifiers...

Clan ABC squirrel, ABC seal....

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It's tough to ask people to sit out, especially since the rewards were so good last season. Here are one big and two smaller suggestions:

Big suggestion: View Clan Battles as a way to build cohesion within your clan, and to improve everyone's skills both individually and as a unit. Turnover is a fact of life in every game, and without some system to bring people's skills up and get new members on board and integrated, players will eventually stratify and parts of the clan will break away.

Small suggestion 1: As one of the posters above mentioned, rotate your players through the teams. Not every game, but when forming teams on any given night, try to mix up who's on which teams a bit. That lets more people earn rewards, get experience, and decide just how hard they'll want to push in CB that season.

Small suggestion 2: Some clans run their full rosters in the early part of the season, then let their CB lineups thin through attrition (loss of interest after rewards are gained). This has the side benefit of letting your team make its push for final standing in the later part of the season, when the player curve has spread out more -- rank inflation will be on your side.

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Thank God for lone-wolf Clans and those willing to accept casual members. Those ought to pull out some of the less committed lower-tier players who don't want to - or can't - fight regularly at the levels Clan Wars demand, or who prefer carriers, but who also want the Clan benefits (and/or who the Clan wants for memberships and oil income). 

And yes, that includes me (and I made that quite clear to the clan that accepted me; they knew exactly what they were getting, so thanks for having me aboard).

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Or you know, you could just play for fun and have a good time with your clan mates, and just be happy with where ever you end up...

 

You know... like playing a game... which World of Warships is... a game...

 

Spoiler

Seriously, what the hell is with all these people and being all like "oh, you're not a super unicum 65% WR player? WELL TOO BAD YOU CANT PLAY WITH US! PTHTHTHTHTH!!!"

 

Really, this is a game. Play it to have fun with people you like to hang out with. Stop being so over dramatic and elitist. Its not like this game will pay your bills after all. There isn't a single employer out there who will hire you based on how well you did in some video game. Chill.

 

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7 minutes ago, Kitsunelegend said:

Or you know, you could just play for fun and have a good time with your clan mates, and just be happy with where ever you end up...

 

You know... like playing a game... which World of Warships is... a game...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Seriously, what the hell is with all these people and being all like "oh, you're not a super unicum 65% WR player? WELL TOO BAD YOU CANT PLAY WITH US! PTHTHTHTHTH!!!"

 

Really, this is a game. Play it to have fun with people you like to hang out with. Stop being so over dramatic and elitist. Its not like this game will pay your bills after all. There isn't a single employer out there who will hire you based on how well you did in some video game. Chill.

 

The only problem with that idea is that some people really want the 3 flags, and unfortunately you cant obtain them by relaxing and having fun. It takes a significant time commitment, discipline and good coordination to earn them. 

The first season certainly didnt come easy for our clan, and we faced a lot of heat from casual players who also just wanted to have fun. If they had their way we wouldnt be typhoon.

Edited by Ulthwey

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This was the genesis of QP2 last CW season. QP wasn't quite full, but a lot of the guys that had been in the clan for a while were very good. We would rotate players into our "A" team group a couple at a time, but we still weren't getting enough games in. We decided to make a sub clan, QP2 where some of the non A team players could go and get much more time in CW. We also had several senior officers leave QP and come over to QP2 to lead / train the newer / less skilled members. The whole point was to let the QP A team keep playing, then train up the new guys in QP2. There have been multiple opportunities for QP2 members to transfer back to QP as well.

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If you clan has bad players, then if you want to achieve Typhoon and win enough to get your flag, you have to either (1) rotate your bad players in 1 at a time and have the good players carry them to their wins or (2) tell your bad players they can't play.  

 

The key is that with clan battles, you really had to earn your flag.  If you're not good enough to earn it, then, to be honest, you don't deserve it.  

 

PS: There were almost 200 teams that made it into Typhoon last season.  That's a lot of flags.

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You could just go and check out how raid guilds in WoW handle raid team rosters.  It's the same kind of issue.

I lead a WoW guild for 7 years, one that went through the raiding cycle a few times, serious sometimes, not so serious the others.  It was always an issue making people happy - the dedicated raid players demanded to on the raid team, as did some casuals and some players with time issues but serious potential.  I was a bit of an oddity - a GM with multiple raid-ready toons, who loathed raids, but had one of the only usable healers.  My solution was to give up my spot whenever somebody else wanted in, and hand the mess over to an officer while I went off to pvp.

there is no way to make everybody happy, I think.  You have to decide early what your clan is aiming for, and what they can reasonably attain, and go from there.  Take your best players in the optimum ships, have a second string selected as alternates and substitutes.  There's no point in planning on using a guy as a stand-in if they are never on, as a habit, during the clan battles timeslots, btw.  Set a time to show up, select the best from the pool available.

 

The reason I won't join a clan is in large part because I've no interest in CW, and don't feel like committing to group activities.

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50 minutes ago, Nukelavee45 said:

The reason I won't join a clan is in large part because I've no interest in CW, and don't feel like committing to group activities.

 

There are many casual clans who just got together to gather oil to make buildings to get the bonuses. About a third of our clan tried one clan battle just to get the flags for playing a battle. Our clan didn't play any other clan battles. We have people who like to division up and those that don't. We don't have any rules besides, no stat shaming, no TK on purpose, follow WG's rules and have fun. There are many clans like PvE that just play for fun and formed a clan for oil and bonuses. 

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STW has a lot of players and a large variety of skill levels, we split the players into several clans and CB teams based on a number of factors including level of commitment, skill, ships, etc. The plan did cause some friction with some players but I think the subdivision is a good plan in the long run because mixing players with different motivations and abilities will cause friction in the long run as some people will inevitably expect more performance and more committed team mates which a lot of players simply dont want to do. So our plan let people join subclans where they were playing with people at more or less the same level of expectations. 

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2 hours ago, Kitsunelegend said:

Or you know, you could just play for fun and have a good time with your clan mates, and just be happy with where ever you end up...

 

You know... like playing a game... which World of Warships is... a game...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Seriously, what the hell is with all these people and being all like "oh, you're not a super unicum 65% WR player? WELL TOO BAD YOU CANT PLAY WITH US! PTHTHTHTHTH!!!"

 

Really, this is a game. Play it to have fun with people you like to hang out with. Stop being so over dramatic and elitist. Its not like this game will pay your bills after all. There isn't a single employer out there who will hire you based on how well you did in some video game. Chill.

 

whats wrong with like minded people coming together to accomplish a common goal? some people find fun in competition/winning.

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Why is it that these clan wars threads always end up in GD? Don't you kids have your own little sub forum?:Smile_teethhappy:

I give Clan wars 3-4 seasons before it ends up in the dumpster, just like team battles. 

You can ignore the fact that the vast majority of players aren't interested, but it's not like the evidence isn't right in front of you.....

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9 minutes ago, awiggin said:

Why is it that these clan wars threads always end up in GD? Don't you kids have your own little sub forum?:Smile_teethhappy:

I give Clan wars 3-4 seasons before it ends up in the dumpster, just like team battles. 

You can ignore the fact that the vast majority of players aren't interested, but it's not like the evidence isn't right in front of you.....

The first season was a massive success though.  Just look at how many clans put in the time and effort to make it all the way to typhoon.  The rewards were amazing, and I'm not talking about just the Stalingrad flag and win bonuses.  Simply loading up your ships with flags and camos made Clan Battles the best mode yet to grind credits, free XP and captains XP, not to mention oil.  It provides great economic incentives, is dangling a massive carrot on an end of the sticks in the form of the Stalingrad and provides clans of all levels with something meaningful to do.  Ever for non competitive clans I imagine just having the opportunity to play around with 6 other clan mates has got to be an incentive.  

If I had to guess, I think Clan Battles is going to go the way of ranked, a consistent staple that is here to stay.  

Edited by yashma

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1 minute ago, yashma said:

The first season was a massive success though.  Just look at how many clans put in the time and effort to make it all the way to typhoon.  The rewards were amazing, and I'm not talking about just the Stalingrad flag and win bonuses.  Simply loading up your ships with flags and camos made Clan Battles the best mode yet to grind credits, free XP and captains XP, not to mention oil.  It provides great economic incentives, is dangling a massive carrot on an end of the sticks in the form of the Stalingrad and provides clans of all levels with something meaningful to do.  Ever for non competitive clans I imagine just having the opportunity to play around with 6 other clan mates has got to be an incentive.  

If I had to guess, I think Clan Battles is going to go the way of ranked, a consistent staple that is here to stay.  

:Smile_facepalm:

Massive success??? :Smile_teethhappy:

Why do you think Clan wars was limited to 3 hrs per day, 4 days a week....because it was so popular?

How about having to supply tier 10 rentals, you think that somehow indicates that it's popular?

WG is talking about combining the servers somehow so that the can actually offer Clan battles in non prime time.

What about this indicates to you that it's a massive success?:Smile_amazed:

And using ranked as a comparison? Clearly you don't pay attention to the reality that Ranked has dropped in players every single season.....Less than 1% of the player base even touched ranked this season.

Why do you think there's hardly any discussion in the forums about Clan wars?

Why do you think that this game lacks any real fan sites? Competitive combat games usually have dozens of active player run fan sites, even active forums..... where are they?

 

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Maybe if people like you were not constantly discouraging any talk of Clan Battles there would be more here. There was plenty of discussion during the season and unlike ranked it was not constant complaints, instead most of the threads were people congratulating WG for making a fun and enjoyable game mode. 

 

Also just for the record, Clan Battles was nothing like Team Battles. During the majority of the Team Battles Season it was almost impossible to get a match in team battles but Clan Battles had people in queue until the very last day of the season. 

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I was in a large clan with many sub clans. My sub clan was a mix of competitive (SL silver league champions) and casual players. Clan battles wasn’t handled well. Many of the competitive players left and the SL team was dissolved.

My advice is follow the example of other clans that adapted well like STW. Seperate out players based on ability, availability, and interest. Mixing unicums with potatos in a competitive game mode is not a good idea.

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Since your clan recruitment requirement asks for more than 60% average win rate, problem of casuals and baddies is not of your concern. Clans that are consisting largely of your list of undesirables would not worry about reaching Typhoon. The clans that do want to get to Typhoon will have no problem reducing or removing or simply not allowing baddies in their clan to participate.

 

Segregation of the demographics has already been done at recruitment stage.

Edited by NeutralState

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