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Admiral_Thrawn_1

Game Changes / Improvements needed

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Can we either make Co-Op Credits / XP earnings on par with Randoms or let me take a team of Bot players into Randoms?

Been very frustrating night where my X teams are utterly incompetent and spend all their time complaining the entire match.

As dumb as bot players can be they are still smarter than my current teams unfortunately. Tried doing Co-Op for 1st time in long time and the bots on my teams at least try to engage the enemy and I can roll forward in my Yamato and know that the bots will travel with me. Or I can sit back and pound the enemy long range and know that the players on my team will not with full HP run away 10-20 km behind me and at first sight of enemy run to the opposite rear corner.

I only need the most minimal of escorts in my Yamato and doing 100k-200k+ damage is easy for me to do.

Being able to switch to over to a team of bots on nights like this would far more pleasant than the current umm I guess you could call them teams of human players in Randoms, but I am uncertain about that since aren't humans supposed to be smarter than the bots in this game or am I mistaken?

 

I would even accept having to control the actions of all 12 ships on my teams  myself if need be...

Actually that's a thought thought for new Random game mode, or imagine a Ranked Season where you had to control all 7 ships on your team at once, it would mean 100% your skill as a player in order to Rank out and no excuses. :Smile_Default:

 

 

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Bots are exceedingly easy to beat. Co-op should never be getting the same rewards as randoms. Higher risk, higher rewards. 

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11 minutes ago, mrmariokartguy said:

Bots are exceedingly easy to beat. Co-op should never be getting the same rewards as randoms. Higher risk, higher rewards. 

Amen. Why do people want rewards handed to them, instead of having to earn them.

@OP yes tier 8+ is cancer. That is thanks to the "hide behind the island" meta. Till that is done away with, nothing is going to change. And since I doubt that is going to be changed, high tier is going to remain cancer. I feel for you if whatever ship you really wanted is tier 10. I was heartbroken at how long I worked for my Bismarck only to find out the meta at those tiers were cancer.

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I've got some ideas to improve the bots in co-op mode too.

When they charge in and die first, they should say, "Where was my support?"

Then the dead ones should spend the rest of the game dropping lines like "Look at this <player ship name> at the back of the map doing nothing all game." in chat at random intervals.

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29 minutes ago, mrmariokartguy said:

Bots are exceedingly easy to beat. Co-op should never be getting the same rewards as randoms. Higher risk, higher rewards. 

I know some programming algorithms that could turbo charge the Ai bots and give the gave a nice hard mode or more like extreme difficulty mode lol.

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15 minutes ago, Slyguy3129 said:

Amen. Why do people want rewards handed to them, instead of having to earn them.

@OP yes tier 8+ is cancer. That is thanks to the "hide behind the island" meta. Till that is done away with, nothing is going to change. And since I doubt that is going to be changed, high tier is going to remain cancer. I feel for you if whatever ship you really wanted is tier 10. I was heartbroken at how long I worked for my Bismarck only to find out the meta at those tiers were cancer.

I just listed some ways to obliterate the current island campong meta, bots have no fear and are willing to sail forward and actually engage the enemy so either have a new game mode with highly intelligent bots with 1 human per team or give players the option to control all ships on the team which I know would be far too much for most people to mentally handle, but the highly skilled players could certainly pull it off. And hey like I pointed out if you controlled all the ships on your team it's all on the player if they win or lose. 

What I HATE is when I do all the work and 11 players on my team take My rewards away by not doing their jobs at all and even going to far as to sabotage the team as well,

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The difference between a unicum and a halfway-decent player is that the unicum can carry a half-dozen poor players. If you want to consistently win, you need to be one of the very best players in the game, pure and simple. This is not a new idea.

Quote

“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.” -- Heraclitus (c. 535-475 BCE)

 

Edited by Snargfargle

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2 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

What I HATE is when I do all the work and 11 players on my team take My rewards away by not doing their jobs at all and even going to far as to sabotage the team as well,

I'm soooooo tired of hearing this.  I understand human nature is to remember the times when things didn't go our way as being monumentally unfair and to forget the times when things did go well because hey, we deserved it.  That doesn't make this right.

For every game where an individual is saddled with 10 potatoes and an AFK on their team, there is another game where this occurs on the opposing team.  For every game where the last ship afloat on your team refuses to run and take the easy points win & instead gets himself sunk, there's another game where the enemy team did that.  Over the long run, a player's win rate will equal out to exactly what it should be based upon their own skill levelOf course it should trend upwards for quite some time as they improve and finally reach their peak, but over any meaningful sample size that "recent" win rate will be true.

It's also helpful to remember that pretty much everyone who reads this would be the potato on a sufficiently skilled team.  Definitely true about the guy who typed it.

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I believe there is an already multi page post (very recently) asking to have co-op have the same rewards - no idea why another one is needed.  No - rewards should not be the same and bots in randoms means - it is not a random game and the queue would get screwed up - so no on both accounts purely for common sense reasons. 

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2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.” -- Heraclitus (c. 535-475 BCE)

:Upham  ^^

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5 hours ago, Slyguy3129 said:

Amen. Why do people want rewards handed to them, instead of having to earn them.

@OP yes tier 8+ is cancer. That is thanks to the "hide behind the island" meta. Till that is done away with, nothing is going to change. And since I doubt that is going to be changed, high tier is going to remain cancer. I feel for you if whatever ship you really wanted is tier 10. I was heartbroken at how long I worked for my Bismarck only to find out the meta at those tiers were cancer.

Good grief.  The meta at high tiers is not "cancerous".  I will say that it can be boring to those who prefer a more open, fire and maneuver meta that's more prevalent in the mid tiers, and is more representative of real naval combat.  But the "reality" is that at high tiers, you have a lot of good players who are (for lack of a better term) programmed to try to take advantage of every little thing the game gives them.  And using terrain to their advantage is just one of those things.  So is bow tanking.

The problem with your post's attitude is that you're not understanding that there's a good reason why that meta exists.  And it's not because the players are cowards or are bad.  It's because they're smart.  Ohhhhh, there are definitely some dumb ones too.  And many of the dumb ones will emulate the tactics that the smart ones have come up with, like hiding behind islands and lobbing shells over them.  The difference is that the smart players know how to properly employ those tactics to best effect, and when it's time to change their location.  The dumb ones only know to hide behind island and shoot over it, and can't see past that one little thing.  The smarter player knows that it's only a temporary tactic and that he needs to think of what to do next, whether it's an escape or a more aggressive move.

But even when you have more open maps, like say Okinawa, you'll end up with long range, fire and maneuver combat, and you get people complaining about that.  I prefer fire and maneuver combat in a naval game because it's more representative of real naval combat.  The problem you have is that there are players who are programmed to think in terms of using and abusing terrain, and don't understand that this isn't a game of sea-tanks, but a game of ships.  And they're constantly thinking that they have to close on the enemy, when this wasn't necessarily a thing in real naval combat.  And because they're thinking of closing on the enemy, they think that they need more islands to cover their approach, so they're not having to close over 15+ km of open water, which isn't an unreasonable thing even if I don't necessarily agree with the need to close on the enemy part.  Of course people want to make their approach without constantly taking fire.  It's no different in WoT.  You don't want to have to drive across an open field when there might be a hill or a town you can use to hide your approach.

 

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Can we either make Co-Op Credits / XP earnings on par with Randoms or let me take a team of Bot players into Randoms?

Been very frustrating night where my X teams are utterly incompetent and spend all their time complaining the entire match.

As dumb as bot players can be they are still smarter than my current teams unfortunately. Tried doing Co-Op for 1st time in long time and the bots on my teams at least try to engage the enemy and I can roll forward in my Yamato and know that the bots will travel with me. Or I can sit back and pound the enemy long range and know that the players on my team will not with full HP run away 10-20 km behind me and at first sight of enemy run to the opposite rear corner.

I only need the most minimal of escorts in my Yamato and doing 100k-200k+ damage is easy for me to do.

Being able to switch to over to a team of bots on nights like this would far more pleasant than the current umm I guess you could call them teams of human players in Randoms, but I am uncertain about that since aren't humans supposed to be smarter than the bots in this game or am I mistaken?

 

I would even accept having to control the actions of all 12 ships on my teams  myself if need be...

Actually that's a thought for new Random game mode, or imagine a Ranked Season where you had to control all 7 ships on your team at once, it would mean 100% your skill as a player in order to Rank out and no excuses. :Smile_Default:

 

 

I *seriously* doubt that it would happen, i.e. a mode where you controlled all of the ships at once.  This would vastly increase WG's server demand.  Right now, a single battle serves 24 players.  But with a mode like this, you'd have to have 24 different battles going on to serve the same 24 players.  Not going to happen.

 

As for playing coop and wanting better rewards, you can start by not playing tier 9's and 10's in coop!  A player can make a small amount of credits playing mid-tiers, but at the higher tiers, I'm not even sure if you can break even with gold camo and a premium account.  And I have no problem with that.

And here's another one.  if you're running into a lot of tier 10 battles full of what you feel are incompetent players, change tiers significantly or stop playing for a while.  Maybe run an operation or 2.  if you're trying to earn your 3 daily containers, operations are good for earning pretty decent XP, though in all honesty, it's boring that operations only change once a week.

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Back to my suggestion of something I call FLEET BATTLES.

This is where you command 7 of YOUR SHIPS (with capabilities of the assigned skilled captains on each) as bots with you giving basic commands - similar to running CV air squadrons.

You fight against another person's fleet of ships.

-- Select ships 7 2 3 -- then F3 on a ship you want them to attack.

-- Select ship 4 -- F3 over cap  -- take that cap.

-- Select ship 1 5 -- F3 over ship 4 -- defend/support that ship

-- Select ship 6 -- Hit F12 -- You are running that ship as you would normal.

-- Hit 'M' takes you back to Fleet controls.

<sigh>  Would be nice if we could control co-op bots this way....

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I just listed some ways to obliterate the current island campong meta, bots have no fear and are willing to sail forward and actually engage the enemy so either have a new game mode with highly intelligent bots with 1 human per team or give players the option to control all ships on the team which I know would be far too much for most people to mentally handle, but the highly skilled players could certainly pull it off. And hey like I pointed out if you controlled all the ships on your team it's all on the player if they win or lose. 

What I HATE is when I do all the work and 11 players on my team take My rewards away by not doing their jobs at all and even going to far as to sabotage the team as well,

looks like you try to blame randoms on your own shortcomings. after a quick look on your stats you are one of the yolo guys, that complain after dieing early you had no support.

how about you watch some guides before complaining. youtube is full of quality content.

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3 hours ago, CylonRed said:

I believe there is an already multi page post (very recently) asking to have co-op have the same rewards - no idea why another one is needed.  No - rewards should not be the same and bots in randoms means - it is not a random game and the queue would get screwed up - so no on both accounts purely for common sense reasons. 

I think judging from the OP, he's more just annoyed that his random teammates are not as aggressive as bots. Not that bots would fix his perceived problem. Bots would charge in get focused as the enemy team of humans kite them and the OP's team of bots would still mostly lose.

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6 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I know some programming algorithms that could turbo charge the Ai bots and give the gave a nice hard mode or more like extreme difficulty mode lol.

The problem with bots is that there is no real way to make them perform "better" other than making them cheat. I say this coming from a RTS background, which means I'm no stranger to bots and offline skirmishes.

   Bots always act based on what information is available to them. Smart humans trick the bots by limiting the information they have available to them until it's too late. To combat this, "harder" bots are programmed with two or more "cheats", such as:

  • Disabled Fog of War: the bots know where all your units (or players) are at all times, but players still have Fog of War
  • Increased Economy: In RTS games, harder bots get an artificially boosted economy which means that, while a player is often limited to either scaling their economy or building their army in the early game, the bot is doing both

 

Of course, since WoWS doesn't have an in-battle Economy, there's really only one way to make the bots "harder." And that would make it not-fun for anyone.

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3 hours ago, CylonRed said:

I believe there is an already multi page post (very recently) asking to have co-op have the same rewards - no idea why another one is needed.  No - rewards should not be the same and bots in randoms means - it is not a random game and the queue would get screwed up - so no on both accounts purely for common sense reasons. 

So many "make co-op rewards better" threads, the mods are scrubbing them. It's getting boring.

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There is player (I may have the name slightly wrong), Col.Gomes who can and does take command of the team, and is a brilliant tactician. I have never seen one ship ignore his orders ('suggestions' for the PC) even when they are totally diverse team of players.

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8 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Can we either make Co-Op Credits / XP earnings on par with Randoms or let me take a team of Bot players into Randoms?

Been very frustrating night where my X teams are utterly incompetent and spend all their time complaining the entire match.

As dumb as bot players can be they are still smarter than my current teams unfortunately. Tried doing Co-Op for 1st time in long time and the bots on my teams at least try to engage the enemy and I can roll forward in my Yamato and know that the bots will travel with me. Or I can sit back and pound the enemy long range and know that the players on my team will not with full HP run away 10-20 km behind me and at first sight of enemy run to the opposite rear corner.

I only need the most minimal of escorts in my Yamato and doing 100k-200k+ damage is easy for me to do.

Being able to switch to over to a team of bots on nights like this would far more pleasant than the current umm I guess you could call them teams of human players in Randoms, but I am uncertain about that since aren't humans supposed to be smarter than the bots in this game or am I mistaken?

 

I would even accept having to control the actions of all 12 ships on my teams  myself if need be...

Actually that's a thought thought for new Random game mode, or imagine a Ranked Season where you had to control all 7 ships on your team at once, it would mean 100% your skill as a player in order to Rank out and no excuses. :Smile_Default:

 

 

 

As a PvE main I have to say no to buffing co-op payouts. PvE is easier than PvP and the rewards are adjusted for that difference. With premium time, perma-camo and clan buildings, PvE earnings are easy to get. 

 

Taking a team of bots into random matches would just be handing the win to the other team IMO. If you could bring the 'killer bots', that work together and focus fire, you might make it interesting, but I think that you would lose a significant amount of the time.

 

Random teams are just that, random. I would suggest watching videos on YouTube for tips. Look to see how you can influence the battle over how much damage you can do. If you get huge damage numbers and win, perfect. If you get huge damage numbers, but miss the opportunity to influence the battle, then winning is much harder.

 

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Coop was never meant to be main'd so no.

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8 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Can we either make Co-Op Credits / XP earnings on par with Randoms or let me take a team of Bot players into Randoms?

Been very frustrating night where my X teams are utterly incompetent and spend all their time complaining the entire match.

As dumb as bot players can be they are still smarter than my current teams unfortunately. Tried doing Co-Op for 1st time in long time and the bots on my teams at least try to engage the enemy and I can roll forward in my Yamato and know that the bots will travel with me. Or I can sit back and pound the enemy long range and know that the players on my team will not with full HP run away 10-20 km behind me and at first sight of enemy run to the opposite rear corner.

I only need the most minimal of escorts in my Yamato and doing 100k-200k+ damage is easy for me to do.

Being able to switch to over to a team of bots on nights like this would far more pleasant than the current umm I guess you could call them teams of human players in Randoms, but I am uncertain about that since aren't humans supposed to be smarter than the bots in this game or am I mistaken?

 

I would even accept having to control the actions of all 12 ships on my teams  myself if need be...

Actually that's a thought thought for new Random game mode, or imagine a Ranked Season where you had to control all 7 ships on your team at once, it would mean 100% your skill as a player in order to Rank out and no excuses. :Smile_Default:

 

 

Here we go again. At T7 and above you have exactly two ships at higher than 50% WR (and one of those ships is still below its server average WR) and you're [edited] about teammates. You are below 50% WR at every tier other than T2. You're the crap teammate! Why don't you try and Improve your own performance to at least average before you start complaining about other players? 

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8 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

I know some programming algorithms that could turbo charge the Ai bots and give the gave a nice hard mode or more like extreme difficulty mode lol.

They did, it's called scenarios....And with the win ratio you get in them, they are easily better than random for grinding.

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9 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Can we either make Co-Op Credits / XP earnings on par with Randoms or let me take a team of Bot players into Randoms?

Been very frustrating night where my X teams are utterly incompetent and spend all their time complaining the entire match.

As dumb as bot players can be they are still smarter than my current teams unfortunately. Tried doing Co-Op for 1st time in long time and the bots on my teams at least try to engage the enemy and I can roll forward in my Yamato and know that the bots will travel with me. Or I can sit back and pound the enemy long range and know that the players on my team will not with full HP run away 10-20 km behind me and at first sight of enemy run to the opposite rear corner.

I only need the most minimal of escorts in my Yamato and doing 100k-200k+ damage is easy for me to do.

Being able to switch to over to a team of bots on nights like this would far more pleasant than the current umm I guess you could call them teams of human players in Randoms, but I am uncertain about that since aren't humans supposed to be smarter than the bots in this game or am I mistaken?

 

I would even accept having to control the actions of all 12 ships on my teams  myself if need be...

Actually that's a thought thought for new Random game mode, or imagine a Ranked Season where you had to control all 7 ships on your team at once, it would mean 100% your skill as a player in order to Rank out and no excuses. :Smile_Default:

 

 

 

 

Bro... peak concurrent online players are barely 15k, spread into 4 MM brackets at least. You want to divide that further and diminish the player pool even more by increasing PvE rewards?

 

Just what rationale on earth you think WG's going to ruin the PvP player pool, and vast majority of the incentives to buy their stuff, by increasing PvE rewards? 

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9 hours ago, mrmariokartguy said:

Bots are exceedingly easy to beat. Co-op should never be getting the same rewards as randoms. Higher risk, higher rewards. 

The vast majority of PvE mains agree that PvE payouts do not need to be the same as PvP. Silver and XP payouts are good for PvE as they are..

 

8 hours ago, grumpymunky said:

I've got some ideas to improve the bots in co-op mode too.

When they charge in and die first, they should say, "Where was my support?"

Then the dead ones should spend the rest of the game dropping lines like "Look at this <player ship name> at the back of the map doing nothing all game." in chat at random intervals.

 

Bots usually don't hang back unless they run into an island and can not figure out how to get around it or they get stuck on the island itself. CVs are the only bots that regularly stay back near spawn.

 

@CylonRed said

Quote

I believe there is an already multi page post (very recently) asking to have co-op have the same rewards - no idea why another one is needed.  No - rewards should not be the same and bots in randoms means - it is not a random game and the queue would get screwed up - so no on both accounts purely for common sense reasons.

The vast majority of PvE mains agree that PvE payouts do not need to be the same as PvP. Silver and XP payouts are good for PvE as they are.

 

 

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

I *seriously* doubt that it would happen, i.e. a mode where you controlled all of the ships at once.  This would vastly increase WG's server demand.  Right now, a single battle serves 24 players.  But with a mode like this, you'd have to have 24 different battles going on to serve the same 24 players.  Not going to happen.

 

As for playing coop and wanting better rewards, you can start by not playing tier 9's and 10's in coop!  A player can make a small amount of credits playing mid-tiers, but at the higher tiers, I'm not even sure if you can break even with gold camo and a premium account.  And I have no problem with that.

And here's another one.  if you're running into a lot of tier 10 battles full of what you feel are incompetent players, change tiers significantly or stop playing for a while.  Maybe run an operation or 2.  if you're trying to earn your 3 daily containers, operations are good for earning pretty decent XP, though in all honesty, it's boring that operations only change once a week.

 

T6 & T7 are the sweet spots for credits. T8 is ok, but T9 tech tree ships pay a higher service cost than a T10 with perma-camo. You really need the perma-camo at the higher tiers.

 

2 hours ago, Carrier_Lexington said:

The problem with bots is that there is no real way to make them perform "better" other than making them cheat. I say this coming from a RTS background, which means I'm no stranger to bots and offline skirmishes.

   Bots always act based on what information is available to them. Smart humans trick the bots by limiting the information they have available to them until it's too late. To combat this, "harder" bots are programmed with two or more "cheats", such as:

  • Disabled Fog of War: the bots know where all your units (or players) are at all times, but players still have Fog of War
  • Increased Economy: In RTS games, harder bots get an artificially boosted economy which means that, while a player is often limited to either scaling their economy or building their army in the early game, the bot is doing both

 

Of course, since WoWS doesn't have an in-battle Economy, there's really only one way to make the bots "harder." And that would make it not-fun for anyone.

 

Oh yeah, the bots know where you are at all times. Now if they have a red ship that is visible, they will ignore the out of range ships, but it the bot can not see any red ships, they will see the whole battlefield.

 

1 hour ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

So many "make co-op rewards better" threads, the mods are scrubbing them. It's getting boring.

It is no different than the MM sucks threads, or I hate when I do well but lose threads (which this is), just with the added PvE should be better. If there is anything that I have said to you over those last few PvE threads, I have not said this more I believe. The vast majority of PvE mains agree that PvE payouts do not need to be the same as PvP. Silver and XP payouts are good for PvE as they are.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Zakuul said:

Coop was never meant to be main'd so no.

The vast majority of PvE mains agree that PvE payouts do not need to be the same as PvP. Silver and XP payouts are good for PvE as they are.

 

As for PvE mains, well WG's plans changed when players decided to be PvE mains. WG has tweaked the payouts over the last year, which is why they are good as they are now. WG has added operations and tweaked the MM in PvE to be more random when bots are involved which was good for the game as well.

 

A big PvE request is to provide tasks for events and campaigns that can be completed in PvE. We do not need the same tasks as something like get 4 wins would not transalate well to PvE. You would need 30-40 wins for PvE for something like that at the minimum. XP or Credit earnings would be good as they have be cut hard in PvE already and base XP would be the most fair to be a PvP/PvE task.

 

 

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Just now, NeutralState said:

 

 

Bro... peak concurrent online players are barely 15k, spread into 4 MM brackets at least. You want to divide that further and diminish the player pool even more by increasing PvE rewards?

 

Just what rationale on earth you think WG's going to ruin the PvP player pool, and vast majority of the incentives to buy their stuff, by increasing PvE rewards? 

 

The vast majority of PvE mains agree that PvE payouts do not need to be the same as PvP. Silver and XP payouts are good for PvE as they are..

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