Thinking about my Z-52 captain...

[NoCoGaming3645]

Alright, I'm almost to the Z-52, after having a blast in the Z-46, which I'll be keeping.

 

I've configured the Z-46 for torpedo boat focus, so I have TTM3 mounted, and the following captain skills (in the order I got them in):

PM, LS, SE, CE, AR, TAE, and RL (which I haven't quite got yet)

 

I'm looking at the better configuration of the gun turrets on the Z-52, and thinking that I want to make that a gun-focused built, so I plan to put MBM3 in place of TTM3. Any experience with that being a bad idea?

That slows my turret rotation to 11.3 second (from 10), which is a bit of a noticeable drop, in order to drop my reload from 4.0 to  3.52 seconds. So, here's my question: what do I use for my last 7 captain points on the one I'm transferring in?

My basic build is what you see above:  PM, LS, SE, CE, AR.

I can see several options, I'm wondering what people think works best:

SI seems to be a no-brainer, if I'm going to be using my guns a lot, I need the smoke cover, more engine boosts, and extra hydro

EM would recover all (and then some) of the turret rotation I lost to MBM3, but I'm not sure how different 11.3 second vs 9.7 second turret rotation would play.

IFHE seems a real good idea, as that allow me to HE pen the vast majority of CA and BB stuff I shoot at, while that's much more iffy with out it. (pens 31mm with IFHE, only 21mm without).

Likewise, DE would seem to make up for the loss of fire chance by IFHE; otherwise, it's a decent bump from 7% to 9% (a 28% increase), but again, not sure if that's overall necessary

AFT seems a bad idea, as I've already got 12km on the guns, and hitting stuff out at 13-14.5km seem unlikely. Plus, that's an awful lot of extra space to be detected in.

RL would seem like a less useful skill for a ship focused on fast guns, rather than one relying on torps.

BFT would only make sense to me if I didn't go with MBM3. 

 

So what's everyone's favorite build here? I'm leaning either:

IFHE, SI

DE, SI, PT

But  IFHE, EM, PT  and IFHE, DE  also seem possible.

 

Thoughts?  How do particular builds you have affect playstyle?

 

[Terrible_Turtle]

Play it as a cap contester, torpedo spammer.

It plays almost identical to the Z-46 except that you can push into your enemies more effectively. With concealment expert, you have a .22km window between your detection range and your hydro range. This makes 1v1 fights extremely easy with the smoke+hydro combo. 

If you have the hydro module, use it. It gives you nearly two and a half minutes of hydro which is almost OP when it comes to fighting for cap control. 

As for when to use guns, I only use them when I'm fighting for caps, when I have ships close and broadside (that AP is ridiculous), or when I can spam HE at long range ships with impunity. Otherwise, keep your guns silent. It's not a RU DD and you want to utilize your stealth to land torpedo hits. Surprise is key in that regard. 

Here's my captain build and module setup. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Quote

SI seems to be a no-brainer, if I'm going to be using my guns a lot, I need the smoke cover, more engine boosts, and extra hydro.

100%

EM would recover all (and then some) of the turret rotation I lost to MBM3, but I'm not sure how different 11.3 second vs 9.7 second turret rotation would play.

Not really necessary. AR is a much more useful skill. 

IFHE seems a real good idea, as that allow me to HE pen the vast majority of CA and BB stuff I shoot at, while that's much more iffy with out it. (pens 31mm with IFHE, only 21mm without).

IFHE implies you'll be using HE primarily. You shouldn't. Use AP as often as you can. Even when ships are slightly angled, the damage from your AP is decent. IFHE only increases your pen, it doesn't increase the alpha which is entirely anemic for KM DDs. 

Likewise, DE would seem to make up for the loss of fire chance by IFHE; otherwise, it's a decent bump from 7% to 9% (a 28% increase), but again, not sure if that's overall necessary

Not my preference. Again, this isn't a RU DD. 

AFT seems a bad idea, as I've already got 12km on the guns, and hitting stuff out at 13-14.5km seem unlikely. Plus, that's an awful lot of extra space to be detected in.

You're spot on here. Especially considering the arcs can be a bit floaty at max range. 

RL would seem like a less useful skill for a ship focused on fast guns, rather than one relying on torps.

It's a matter of preference. There are some situations where I wish I had it, but that's a lot of points to sacrifice. 

BFT would only make sense to me if I didn't go with MBM3. 

Again, I'd highly recommend a torpedo focused build. The guns are already exceptional, and don't need too much enhancement. But if it works for you, more power to ya. 

 

[NoCoGaming3645]

Thanks, but the whole point here is that my Z-46 is already a completely torp-focused, and I'll be keeping that for when I want to do that.

I'd like to run the Z-52 as more of a "gunboat with useful torps", particularly as I don't own a Gearing or Khab, nor will I anytime soon. And yeah, cap bully.  I might take the Hydro Module off my Edinburgh just for this.  :-)

 

[tmGrunty]

IFHE does a whole lot of nothing. You do NOT cross the 32mm threshhold which means it has 0 effect on how much you penetrate BBs. Also you want to shoot AP as much as possible anyway.

The combination of TTM3 + BFT is superior to MBM3 + TAE (because TAE and BFT are both 10% but TTM3 is 15% compared to 12% on MBM3).

EM is pointless. You won't notice the difference. The turret traverse rate is already fast enough.

RL can be good to hunt down enemy DDs but it also makes you prone to overextenting during the chase and this can get you killed quickly. Personally I would not take it.

 

Now for going a full gunboat build on Z-52.

I think it is a bad idea because what makes the guns on German DDs good is the AP. But this is situational to use as it requires almost flat broadsides and you just don't get that often enough.

You also can't really use your guns a lot in the open because you will suffer a lot of damage in return of you do. So most of your gun damage will come from inside your smokes which as we all know are not the best.

 

Here is what I'm running on my Z-52.

Modules: MAM1, Hydro, AGM2, SGM2, CSM1, TTM3

Captain skills: PT, LS, SI, CE, SE, AR, BFT (you can go TAE for full torp build if you really want), PM

 

Fun fact:

If you want a gunboat style German DD than switch it up and use the Z-46 for that. It is actually superior for that task because the double turrets in the back allow for a "kiting" playstyle.

It also handles (turns) much better than the Z-52 and has a better detection allowing you to go dark easier if necessary.

Recommended captain build for that: PT, LS, SI, CE, AFT, AR, BFT/SE

[Terrible_Turtle]

13 hours ago, EAnybody said:

Thanks, but the whole point here is that my Z-46 is already a completely torp-focused, and I'll be keeping that for when I want to do that.

I'd like to run the Z-52 as more of a "gunboat with useful torps", particularly as I don't own a Gearing or Khab, nor will I anytime soon. And yeah, cap bully.  I might take the Hydro Module off my Edinburgh just for this.  :-)

 

 

If the "whole point" is to make a gun-focused Z-52 build, then I have no recommendations for you since that's a bad idea. Reasons have already been stated by myself and others. 

You don't want to be taking a lot of fire in the Z-52. It melts quickly, and your smoke duration doesn't last long enough except for short duration engagements. 

[BarronRichthofen]

So no one else will help you out with this so I will. I run my Z-52 Capt with CE,SI,BFT,TAE,LS,AR,PM,& PT. It is a "Hybrid Build" The ship uses MaM1,EBM1,AAGM2,SGM2,CSM1,&MBM3. Not a full Torp build which I use on my Z-46 nor a Full Gun Build, You would need to take AFT for that but adding the range & AA is not worth the reload of the torps from TAE. No it does not have the reload on torps of my Z-46 but the gun reload is down to 3.2 sec with an 11.5 sec 180 turn.and a 12.1 km range.

She is set up to contest caps and torping. If I had a Hydro Module it would be on the ship but alas I have yet to get that one. Have 5 of the EBM1's but none of the hydro module. I use the AA module over the MBM2 because I wanted the ROF. You could use EM for a little more turret traverse,  and run JOAT or HA in place of one of the level one skills and TAE. But in most battles the slower turret traverse will not matter. Most people are not willing to close the range with a Z-52 once the smoke/hydro combo has been used. They usually try and hide in smoke and die or RUN (the smarter ones). 

If you really want an ALL GUN Build,  Drop one lv 1 skill, swap AR for EM and drop TAE for AFT and get the range as well. Module wise the AA or MBM2 are really your only options.With the AA  you'll end up with an 81 AA rating but that is deceptive. Your AA still only reaches out to 6 km so unless a CV is parking planes on you it's not enough of a help to warrant AFT over  the TAE route. The Range boost is only out to 14.5 km yeah it's 2.4 km further than without AFT but hit % beyond 12 km on DD's is crapso I did not bother with it. I'd rather have the TAE torp ROF bonus. With my build above you end up with an 81 sec Torp reload vs the 68.9 of a full torp build but you have near Gearing ROF and still get the AR reload boost once you start taking damage.

[JochenHeiden]

My Z-52 build:

and captain:

[MrKilmister]

I've had Z-52 for some time now (my modules, upgrades and 19 pt captain skills are the same or very similar to what others here suggest) and I've found it to be well below my expectations coming from really liking Z-46 - and I really should have known better just by looking at the stats. 

I watched Business6 on Twitch a few weeks ago just rail against Z-52 as he was trying make it work for him.  I think his critique was unfortunately is exactly right. That is, essentially what meaningful or useful advantages, in sum total, does Z-52 really offer over Z-46?  Virtually none. Tier for tier, Z-46 is much superior to Z-52. 

 

[xovian]

46 minutes ago, lemekillmister said:

I watched Business6 on Twitch a few weeks ago just rail against Z-52 as he was trying make it work for him.  I think his critique was unfortunately is exactly right. That is, essentially what meaningful or useful advantages, in sum total, does Z-52 really offer over Z-46?  Virtually none. Tier for tier, Z-46 is much superior to Z-52. 

 

The big, and only meaningful differences, are:

Better perm camo for z-52
Better AA defense, which while useful can;t always be used due to trying to maintain concealment.

Gun placement difference can be both good or bad. Horrible for kiting with both guns in front (unlike the z-46), however going forward to force a BB to try and use their mains at point blank can be effective, all the while you keep lighting em up till a torp reload. Sadly, isnt something you get to do often.

[JochenHeiden]

1 hour ago, lemekillmister said:

I've had Z-52 for some time now (my modules, upgrades and 19 pt captain skills are the same or very similar to what others here suggest) and I've found it to be well below my expectations coming from really liking Z-46 - and I really should have known better just by looking at the stats. 

I watched Business6 on Twitch a few weeks ago just rail against Z-52 as he was trying make it work for him.  I think his critique was unfortunately is exactly right. That is, essentially what meaningful or useful advantages, in sum total, does Z-52 really offer over Z-46?  Virtually none. Tier for tier, Z-46 is much superior to Z-52. 

 

Anyone who isn't fully convinced the Z-52 is NOT the best Tier X destroyer in this game has lost their mind.  NOTHING contests and takes caps like a Z-52.  Nothing has such a massive offensive toolset like the Z-52.  Best DD in  the game, period.

As for this business6 gentleman, I don't know how much validity I would give to the opinion of a person who skipped 1/3 of the entire DD line (tiers 5,6,7).  He has very few games in any of the ships of the line.

 

[MrKilmister]

12 hours ago, JochenHeiden said:

Anyone who isn't fully convinced the Z-52 is NOT the best Tier X destroyer in this game has lost their mind.  NOTHING contests and takes caps like a Z-52.  Nothing has such a massive offensive toolset like the Z-52.  Best DD in  the game, period.

As for this business6 gentleman, I don't know how much validity I would give to the opinion of a person who skipped 1/3 of the entire DD line (tiers 5,6,7).  He has very few games in any of the ships of the line.

 

Debating the skill level of business6 would be pointless and getting lost in the weeds.  And is there any productive point in going with that sort of personal tone, BTW?

Anyway, of course the overall stats for the ship are valid. The answer to why Z-46 overall is lower statically compared to Z-52 is a mystery to me, perhaps hidden away somewhere in the numbers. The bottom line for each player is what works for them. (e.g. I find Z-46 more consistently effective as whole package. Another example are my stats for the lowly Ognevoi which are FAR above the average overall stats for all T8 DDs - who knows why really...) Also, tier for tier Loyang is a better at contesting and taking caps.

Furthermore, none of that really addressed the question of what, overall as whole package, considered in terms of ships and armament design/specs, does the Z-52 offer that makes it so superior to Z-46 - or superior at all, considering a tier for tier comparison. I've seen some people complain that Gearing moves like tubby sow pig. Z-52 is much worse. The 10.5 KM torp range is nothing special, only a tad more than Z-46's G7 Wolfsbarsch, and 14400 max damage is middling at best even for tier 9. The torp reload is great - 8s better than Z-46 but the difference between the two is minuscule. AP max damage is great - same on Z-46. 

I don't know karate, but I know Ka-Razor! - James Brown

 

 

[wstugamd]

If you want a gun bote the correct modules and Captain skills are called the Gearing, Yueyang, and if you consider it a destroyer the khab. 

I understand you wish to run the z52 as a gun bote but listen to the wisdom here. That’s not it’s strenght. You can turn a shim into a gun bote but it will be a tough bote to play if you run it as a gun bote. Play the boat to its strengths and enjoy it

[KaptainKaybe]

On 24/02/2018 at 10:29 PM, lemekillmister said:

I watched Business6 on Twitch a few weeks ago just rail against Z-52 as he was trying make it work for him.  I think his critique was unfortunately is exactly right. That is, essentially what meaningful or useful advantages, in sum total, does Z-52 really offer over Z-46?  Virtually none. Tier for tier, Z-46 is much superior to Z-52. 

Z-46 is NOT superior to Z-52, even tier for tier. Not even close.

Z-52 has most of it's guns up front which is much better than having them in the back. German DDs are best at aggressively pushing into caps and smoke clouds and basically being big bullies. It's hard to be a bully when most of your firepower is available to you when you're running away. I personally had a really hard time with the Z-46 because of this. Same problem I had with the Roon in fact.

Also, Z-52's Hydro is a full 1.2km better! That's not a small difference here. It basically means it's Hydro is nearly the same range as her concealment (off by around 200 meters or so) and actually allows you to see IJN DDs much sooner than their own concealment.

Sorry, man, I hated the Z-46. I actually did better with the Z-23. Z-46 just promotes standoffish DD play which is not what the German DDs are good for.

[MrKilmister]

3 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Z-46 is NOT superior to Z-52, even tier for tier. Not even close.

Z-52 has most of it's guns up front which is much better than having them in the back. German DDs are best at aggressively pushing into caps and smoke clouds and basically being big bullies. It's hard to be a bully when most of your firepower is available to you when you're running away. I personally had a really hard time with the Z-46 because of this. Same problem I had with the Roon in fact.

Also, Z-52's Hydro is a full 1.2km better! That's not a small difference here. It basically means it's Hydro is nearly the same range as her concealment (off by around 200 meters or so) and actually allows you to see IJN DDs much sooner than their own concealment.

Sorry, man, I hated the Z-46. I actually did better with the Z-23. Z-46 just promotes standoffish DD play which is not what the German DDs are good for.

I liked Z-46 leveling up. For me, tier for tier Z-46 was/is the better hybrid DD experience overall; however, Z-52 is growing on me as I become more precisely attuned with how aggressively I can play it. I've found I was playing Z-52 into caps too aggressively, at first. 

Yes, the hydro is obviously strong. I'm not especially fond of the 2 x 4 torps spread at T10--including torps that only potentially do 14,400 max damage each, that same as Z-46's torps. +.5 km torp range and +2 knot speed is an anemic bump up from T9. There are a lot of other T8, 9 and 10 DD torps in the game that launch in a better spread pattern and can do significantly more damage. 

[BarronRichthofen]

So with the recent proliferation of Radar ships I decided to try something New on my  Z-52. I went for the gun range all out. Sitting at 16.8 km range 3.6 sec reload. Playing her like a russian  DD. At extreme ranges HE is the way to go. Inside 10 KM rake the AP across the superstructure of the BB's and heavy cruisers.

[BarronRichthofen]

So after a dozen matches or so  I've determined that the Full Gun Range build is a GOOD thing. 

Averaging 80k + damage and I'm usually alive at the end of match. BTW these American Light Cruisers can be Citadeled at 15 km with the Z's gun's. They don't like this lol.

[Labedoyere]

What does AR stand for in the options for the Captain ?

[Tigermaus]

I prefer the Z-46 over the Z-52.

[NoobDD]

On 2018/7/15 at 12:53 AM, Labedoyere said:

What does AR stand for in the options for the Captain ?

this, only 2 skill point. best skill for any destroyer.

[Tigermaus]

On 7/3/2018 at 3:34 PM, BarronRichthofen said:

So after a dozen matches or so  I've determined that the Full Gun Range build is a GOOD thing. 

Averaging 80k + damage and I'm usually alive at the end of match. BTW these American Light Cruisers can be Citadeled at 15 km with the Z's gun's. They don't like this lol.

 

I used that build for a while and had some great success with it. The guns, at range, seem to really do quick work of people. Some other Super Unicum player here recommended the max range build as well so I gave it a shot and WOW.

[Capt_Binkley]

I liked the Z-46, but I love the Z-52.  IMO, it is the most versatile DD in the game.  Great guns with excellent AP.  Turrets turn well.  Good speed.  Good durability.  Descent smoke.   Excellent hydro (unbeatable hydro with the special upgrade).  And those torps!  Those torps are fantastic!  63 sec reload, 69 kt speed, 10k range, 68 sec reload... did I mention the 68 sec reload. 

I love encountering enemy DD's on the cap.  I pray they smoke up.  This thing is an assassin when DD's use the typical defensive measures.

Oh... and it has a 68 sec reload on the torps.