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MaxL_1023

Keelhaul Me: Confessions of an Elitist

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I understand that feeling when you're having a good game and you pour your heart into every salvo making every effort towards victory. This is a team game and no matter how good you are, you find yourself most of the time depending on a team mate to make that push or diversion tactics...and its a great feeling when even when you make a sacrifice and the rest of the team follows through. Then, you have some of those players in your team that you count on for support or is one of the last ones alive and you see them make UNBELIEVABLY idiotic  decisions that will cost you the game. Trust me, I yell vile things at them through the monitor. It's infuriating

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I'm an elitist, but only in holding myself to that standard. I hold everyone else to a more reasonable standard that takes a reasonable amount of intelligence and self respect to achieve. I am indifferent toward those who fall below that standard unless they: 

#1. Deny they are below that standard. 

#2. Cast blame on external factors instead of owning up to their sub par performance. 

#3. Complain about issues without putting in the effort to learn how to overcome them. 

#4. Trivialize the activity as justification for their poor performance (use the "It's just a game" card). 

#5. Don't self regulate by sticking to low tier random or co-op. 

#6. Fail to properly manage expectations due to entitlement (expecting they deserve to rank out, complete all missions successfully, make enough credits to sustain high tier play, etc.). 

It seems the WoWs community has a disturbing number of players who demonstrate one or more of the above six traits. 

Edited by A_Crying_Hipster
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What's funny is that I actually do not insult people in chat nearly as much as I get credit for. I just lost my temper in divisions a couple times after a bad loss where I felt that we should have been able to carry. I default to criticizing my division mates, expecting the same in return. It was like that back in the old WoT days with people from -G- and general WoTLabs. It seems that the culture I ran into was a bit different, where they would freely call other players potatoes behind their backs while not tolerating direct criticism in return. 

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2 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

It is text on a computer screen - just ignore it and move on.

Done

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47 minutes ago, A_Crying_Hipster said:

#4. Trivialize the activiy as justification for their poor performance (use the "It's just a game" card). 

#5. Don't self regulate by sticking to low tier random or co-op.

I agree with you on your other points but found some issues with these two. For the most part, #4 does hold some weight as long as it isn't flippantly used, say a cruiser just full speed ahead's into the enemy team and says "it's just a game bro", that is where it loses credibility imo but it is certainly just a game still.

My other issue with self regulation, what do you mean by this? I certainly have my share of sub-par games but I don't think that should keep people in the beginning tiers or co-op, especially since co-op payout is harder to progress with. It's definitely a good idea to stay low tier until you learn the basics and get comfortable with the game mechanics, but after that I don't see why anyone who is below average shouldn't go up in tiers. Let them play the game.

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1 hour ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Ironically enough, they did a test. Vinegar caught more flies.

I grew up on my grandparent's farm...field tests there show you catch more with bullsh!t than with anything else.

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4 hours ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

I get angry at my teams often, they tend to be garbage, but would you call someone you met on the street sh*t? No. Why? Because you're going to get into a fight. Just because there are no direct repercussions from insulting people and teams doesn't mean you should. If you're mad at your team go back to port or close the game, don't start insulting people because it's going to do absolutely nothing to improve their gameplay. 

^ this. I am one who does not play around with folks in real life. You want to act up?.....I have your remedy.

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I have played many matches in a Div with MaxL_1023, and I can say that I can't recall him typing anything into chat more incendiary "Why are you doing that?".  He is certainly a kinder and gentler soul in chat than I can be.  He is also a VERY demanding Division partner, but in a good way.  His knowledge of ships has rapidly become encyclopedic, and he can tell you the armor lay out and weak points of every ship he has played and many he has played against.  He will question our decisions to see what we are thinking and will boldly tell us if he thinks we have made the wrong decision.  Some people don't like that, but it has never bothered me, if ones intent is to get better, one has to draw information from every worthwhile source available.  My only wish is that he would just start playing DD's so we could quit hearing him rant about "invisitorping ..."

He was a good guide writer for World of Tanks on the Wotlabs forums and a Super Unicum in that game.  It's not surprising that based on what he had previously done in Tanks, he has set the same expectations for himself in Warships. This post has elicited some strong reactions from a few posters, specifically ones that hate people who openly acknowledge their own skill.  Well, I for one am sick of the "Humble Brag", it's not a mark of humility to be mediocre at something, and all the Virtue Signaling about people taking pride in actually being good is tiresome and sad.  Every rapper that has sold a gold or platinum record brags about how they are better than the rest, any sports team that wins a championship holds up a finger to signify #1.  There are endless awards shows right now, Golden Globes, Grammys, Oscar etc - the whole point of which is to subjectively reward the best.  Why shouldn't someone who has the skill to be in the top 1% be allowed to be proud of it? 

It's not luck, it's not Pay to win, it's not aimbots, it's not 3 man divisions, it's not freakishly good reflexes or super hand eye coordination. Success is the result of dedicated practice, focused learning and consistent application of knowledge.  If you are mediocre or bad at this game, it's because you aren't disciplined enough or consistent enough in your attempts to learn and partner with better players than yourself.  No one looks down on you for not investing the time and effort to get better, but good players could care less about your theories or map pings when the battle starts.

Edit: On Wotlabs, there were Super Unicums ( not top 1% but top .1% ) that you could pay for private lessons with buy buying them gold.  Some of you need to pester some of the top 10 clan players to see if they will spend an hour or two with you for some doubloons - you have no idea how much you can learn in that short a period of time.

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5 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

If you want to play in a competitive environment, accept that you will run into competitive people. We are human, we get angry, we might attack your play. It is text on a computer screen - just ignore it and move on. If it is unjustified, we are in the wrong - take that knowledge and go to the next battle.

Know what *I* believe? That you picked up a chat ban and came to the forums to rant about it, but concocted the remainder of the post to deflect from this key bit right here.

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Just now, Battlecruiser_NewZealand said:

Know what *I* believe? That you picked up a chat ban and came to the forums to rant about it, but concocted the remainder of the post to deflect from this key bit right here.

Actually no - I really don't go off in chat. I do not have a chat ban.

 

I am just mad that people have been using elitist as a slur, when technically all it means is respecting people who have qualifications. I want to learn from people better than me, and then pass on whatever I can once I reach the level where I can do so. 

I don't understand why you would play a PvP game and NOT be competitive. It makes no sense to me. Some people think differently, which is not usual for me. However, I am not going to pretend to be a WoWS populist. I am not going to support PVE players getting the same events PvP does. I am not going to let a bad player try and influence game balance. You have the right to your opinion, but if you are unqualified you objectively have a less valuable perspective. Otherwise why would qualifications exist to begin with?

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2 hours ago, Situational_Unawareness said:

I agree with you on your other points but found some issues with these two. For the most part, #4 does hold some weight as long as it isn't flippantly used, say a cruiser just full speed ahead's into the enemy team and says "it's just a game bro", that is where it loses credibility imo but it is certainly just a game still.

My other issue with self regulation, what do you mean by this? I certainly have my share of sub-par games but I don't think that should keep people in the beginning tiers or co-op, especially since co-op payout is harder to progress with. It's definitely a good idea to stay low tier until you learn the basics and get comfortable with the game mechanics, but after that I don't see why anyone who is below average shouldn't go up in tiers. Let them play the game.

You have to get in over your head at times to grow.  I give people latitude for that reason, but will try to point out things that I think are major mistakes in an even-handed fashion.  I never make it personal, call people names, or tell them to uninstall.  I am a better than average player most of the time but I have my fair share of screw-ups, and have to learn new ships and grind them out from stock, too.

I remember very early in my WoT console days when I blocked someone in a bad spot by parking behind him.  He could have balled me out in front of the team in voice chat for getting him killed, but simply left me a personal message about what I did wrong and the consequences for doing it.  I thanked him and learned an important lesson, which was even more impactful because he wasn’t a jerk about it.

@Pigeon_of_War said on the Warships Podcast this week that a small fraction of the player population visits these forums.  We, as the more engaged WoWs players, have a conscious choice - to make the community a more supportive or a more toxic one.  I choose the first option - and it doesn’t prevent me from trying to support my teams to the best of my ability or curb my desire to become a great player.

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10 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_NewZealand said:

Know what *I* believe? That you picked up a chat ban and came to the forums to rant about it, but concocted the remainder of the post to deflect from this key bit right here.

Yeah, nice projection there, but MaxL is not chat banned, nor can I conceive of some twisted alternate universe in which his Bizarro world duplicate would get one either.

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14 minutes ago, BiggieD61 said:

 My only wish is that he would just start playing DD's so we could quit hearing him rant about "invisitorping ..."

I have played DDs and still hate invisitorping, mainly because as a DD it makes me have to spend half my time running in circles trying to screen for allies. I know DDs can easily set up crossfire torpedo lanes which are undefendable by WASD, as you either overextend, underextend or show broadside due to the map design. As a DD I can stop this to some degree, but in anything with more than 10km concealment it is not going to work. 

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17 minutes ago, MaxL_1023 said:

However, I am not going to pretend to be a WoWS populist. I am not going to support PVE players getting the same events PvP does.

Funnily enough, I agree with you on that. I think any dollar wasted on PvE is, frankly, squandered. It's ridiculous to cater to a crowd of people playing a platform specifically designed for PvP, who nevertheless insist on huddling in a corner, covering their ears, and screaming at the top of their lungs (to make the bad men go away).

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6 minutes ago, MaxL_1023 said:

Actually no - I really don't go off in chat. I do not have a chat ban.

 

I am just mad that people have been using elitist as a slur, when technically all it means is respecting people who have qualifications. I want to learn from people better than me, and then pass on whatever I can once I reach the level where I can do so. 

I don't understand why you would play a PvP game and NOT be competitive. It makes no sense to me. Some people think differently, which is not usual for me. However, I am not going to pretend to be a WoWS populist. I am not going to support PVE players getting the same events PvP does. I am not going to let a bad player try and influence game balance. You have the right to your opinion, but if you are unqualified you objectively have a less valuable perspective. Otherwise why would qualifications exist to begin with?

Max,

A key point that you hit on is that there are many other people around who don’t think the same way as you, or are not as competitive as you.  It’s frustrating as all get out for me, as well, but it’s just a fact of life we all have to come to terms with to prevent ourselves from having to buy a new keyboard on a regular basis or popping a (blood) vessel.

I had to learn this point the hard way when I started managing people in my career.  Other folks are not necessarily motivated by the same things as me, such as caring about how well they do their  job.  People just don’t have cookie cutter wants, needs, or priorities.  Once I came to terms with that, it got easier to work with a diverse group of folks.

Anyways, I definitely don’t disagree with your concept of asymmetrical rewards for exceptional achievement.  I just think that we have to balance our expectations when playing outside of a true competitive environment like Clan Wars.  Many folks in Randoms see WoT and WoWs as purely entertainment and not an arena of self-improvement.  I’d probably enjoy my losses more if I could think that way.  :Smile_smile:

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Elitism seems to be the way WG is going with the game and i like it. Look at how many rewards now including emblems are based on wins and XP at the same time. Not just one or the other. Not only do you need to win but you need to be in the top 2-3 xp earners on your team over many games. WG seems to be going more and more this direction with rewards and that is a good thing. Players who do not care, want to be carried or just plain are bad will find it harder and harder to get some of the real cool stuff offered as rewards.  Seems they are even pulling some rewards away from coop and making them more for the competitive part of the game. 

Edited by SteelClaw
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Too many elitists aren't actually "elite". That's the Dunning Kruger affect for ya. Even in the presence of elite performance, elitism isn't something to be proud of. 

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Could not possibly agree more with the OP.

In relation to all the unhappy people in this thread, ahem inhale, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAahahahahahahahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAahahahahahahah inhale MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Oh that felt good. Seriously how do these sensitive people survive life? For real, get over yourselves. If you can't handle competition and trash talk, the internet is no place for you. No one is forcing you to play, no one is forcing you to stay, so pardon me while I say, the door is were you logged in at, you are welcome to leave whenever things get too big and scary for you.

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2 hours ago, Situational_Unawareness said:

I agree with you on your other points but found some issues with these two. For the most part, #4 does hold some weight as long as it isn't flippantly used, say a cruiser just full speed ahead's into the enemy team and says "it's just a game bro", that is where it loses credibility imo but it is certainly just a game still.

My other issue with self regulation, what do you mean by this? I certainly have my share of sub-par games but I don't think that should keep people in the beginning tiers or co-op, especially since co-op payout is harder to progress with. It's definitely a good idea to stay low tier until you learn the basics and get comfortable with the game mechanics, but after that I don't see why anyone who is below average shouldn't go up in tiers. Let them play the game.

The courts and hoops are free to use at the public park. You see two separate groups of guys playing. One group is at or maybe even slightly above your ability. The other group is legions beyond your ability. Who do you approach to ask to play? That's self regulation. You have WoWs players who lack the muscle in the brain that should tell them not to ask to join the latter group. 

The reason why you don't ask the latter group is twofold. First, your play would disrupt the high-level flow of quality play that they are looking to maintain. They don't want to stop play to have to chase the ball you threw into the nearby baseball field because you completely missed the backboard. Second, you put them in a lose/lose situation because if they turn you down no matter how politely, you forced them to have to reject you which is an unpleasant experience for everyone. The mere asking to join and put them in that position is an act of disrespect. 

The same principle applies to WoWs. Just because there is no written rule in the terms of service that a section of the ten tiers should be carved out for newbies and underperformers and another section for experienced / skilled players, you don't need it in writing. Just like everyone knows to skate counterclockwise at the public rink without anyone directing traffic or signs instructing people to do so. This is supported further by the fact that high tier costs discourage underperformers from consistently playing without running into credit issues. 

I'll give you an example of my own self regulation to show you that I walk the talk. I sucked at CV. In order to not be a burden to my teams in random, I played a bunch of games in co-op until I learned how to strafe and manual drop and get consistent with timing under most scenarios, ships full speed driving straight, ships turning, fast moving DDs, enemy fighters nearby, enemy AA to navigate around, etc. 

Another example, you don't see me playing any T1-3 except when going up a new line. And rarely ever play less than 7 unless I'm divved with clan mates working on a new line.

And I won't ever play the game if my internet or PC is showing even the slightest pattern of instability that could cause me to be a burden to the team, yes, even random. 

These acts do not make me self righteous, elitist, or better than anyone. These acts of self regulation are what basic, decent human beings used to do before our society destroyed emotional intelligence attributes like empathy and self-discipline. 

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33 minutes ago, A_Crying_Hipster said:

I'll give you an example of my own self regulation to show you that I walk the talk. I sucked at CV. In order to not be a burden to my teams in random, I played a bunch of games in co-op until I learned how to strafe and manual drop and get consistent with timing under most scenarios, ships full speed driving straight, ships turning, fast moving DDs, enemy fighters nearby, enemy AA to navigate around, etc. 

Another example, you don't see me playing any T1-3 except when going up a new line. And rarely ever play less than 7 unless I'm divved with clan mates working on a new line.

And I won't ever play the game if my internet or PC is showing even the slightest pattern of instability that could cause me to be a burden to the team, yes, even random.

It's good to see that you practice what you preach, and your example has cleared things up for me a bit. However, there's a part of me that just feels a little egalitarian about the tiers, knowing people that have skill caps (myself included, though I do try to get better each match), and feel they should be allowed to progress into higher tiers for better or worse. As you said, the higher repair costs will gauge them back to a more comfortable tier where they make money faster if they can't keep up. The meritocracy aspect can't be ignored either, however, as skilled players should be rewarded more than average or under-performing members of the team, after all they're putting in more time and effort usually for that level of skill in the game. Unfortunate that the inverse isn't avoidable, when higher tier players do start on a new line and plaster newer players who are still learning the game or those belonging in the lower tiers.

Also, it's nice to see that you take so many precautions to avoid being a burden to your team in any way, I respect that.

Edited by Situational_Unawareness
a few typos

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8 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

I am an Elitist.

I believe that if you are better at WoWS, you should get rewarded. More wins, more credits and exp, more flags and special consumables, and access to additional content such as pennants, premium camouflages and event rewards. 

I believe that if you choose to play a competitive game mode (Randoms, Ranked and CB) you implicitly accept any criticism of your play, whether valid or not. You should always make an effort to improve, considering any and all advice, weighting it based on the source and results it brings. 

I believe that if you wish to play in an environment where performance expectations do not exist, you should play Co-Op battles and Training Rooms. Operations count as random battles, as significant rewards and penalties to earnings exist based on success and failure. 

If you want to play in a competitive environment, accept that you will run into competitive people. We are human, we get angry, we might attack your play. It is text on a computer screen - just ignore it and move on. If it is unjustified, we are in the wrong - take that knowledge and go to the next battle. 

If you make a mistake, accept it, acknowledge it and learn from it. If you don't think you made a mistake, look at the results. If they win more games than you, they are probably right. Results matter in the end, and with a large enough sample size statistics  converge to the true result of your play.

If you don't want to improve, take advice, or honestly believe you are not subject to the above - there is nothing I can do. I will keep criticizing your play within the limits of the terms and conditions of the community. These ships fought in SALT water after all. 

Elite players earn their rewards and accolades. Everyone gets the same chance, plays the same game in the same ships. If you accomplish more, you deserve more. Everyone gets enough to enjoy the game anyways, so what is the problem?

This makes me an Elitist. Keelhaul me.

 

 

Amen.

That being said, I can already see the legions of "casuals" coming out of the woodwork to bash you.

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It's a leisure activity, if you get angry and frustrated do something else. Spending your gaming time mad is a bad investment of what little free time most of us have. 

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3 hours ago, SteelClaw said:

Elitism seems to be the way WG is going with the game and i like it. Look at how many rewards now including emblems are based on wins and XP at the same time. Not just one or the other. Not only do you need to win but you need to be in the top 2-3 xp earners on your team over many games. WG seems to be going more and more this direction with rewards and that is a good thing. Players who do not care, want to be carried or just plain are bad will find it harder and harder to get some of the real cool stuff offered as rewards.  Seems they are even pulling some rewards away from coop and making them more for the competitive part of the game. 

I am also glad they are doing this. 

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11 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

I am an Elitist.

I believe that if you are better at WoWS, you should get rewarded. More wins, more credits and exp, more flags and special consumables, and access to additional content such as pennants, premium camouflages and event rewards. 

I believe that if you choose to play a competitive game mode (Randoms, Ranked and CB) you implicitly accept any criticism of your play, whether valid or not. You should always make an effort to improve, considering any and all advice, weighting it based on the source and results it brings. 

I believe that if you wish to play in an environment where performance expectations do not exist, you should play Co-Op battles and Training Rooms. Operations count as random battles, as significant rewards and penalties to earnings exist based on success and failure. 

If you want to play in a competitive environment, accept that you will run into competitive people. We are human, we get angry, we might attack your play. It is text on a computer screen - just ignore it and move on. If it is unjustified, we are in the wrong - take that knowledge and go to the next battle. 

If you make a mistake, accept it, acknowledge it and learn from it. If you don't think you made a mistake, look at the results. If they win more games than you, they are probably right. Results matter in the end, and with a large enough sample size statistics  converge to the true result of your play.

If you don't want to improve, take advice, or honestly believe you are not subject to the above - there is nothing I can do. I will keep criticizing your play within the limits of the terms and conditions of the community. These ships fought in SALT water after all. 

Elite players earn their rewards and accolades. Everyone gets the same chance, plays the same game in the same ships. If you accomplish more, you deserve more. Everyone gets enough to enjoy the game anyways, so what is the problem?

This makes me an Elitist. Keelhaul me.

 

 

:Smile_bajan2:

It's the closest that we have.

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