Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
NoZoupForYou

Clarification (Since Apparently Started a Poop Storm) On my thoughts on CVs

98 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

2,163
[WG-CC]
WoWS Community Contributors
1,435 posts
4,726 battles

Posted this on Reddit, so i figured I'd post it here as well...

To clarify a few things.

First I have more than one account. I have one that will continue to remain anonymous. Sometimes I like to kick back unnoticed, and sometimes I like to try ships without looking worse than usual. This applies to carriers.

Also, every carrier I test, GZ, Kaga, Saipan, Enterprise, etc... before its released, the round played in it don't count towards the overall count. So yea... I probably have closer to 100+ on my normal account. Still not a lot. I get it. but its not 22. And back in the day, I could clear the skies with Essex (or was it Lexi?  It was so long ago) when she was all powerful in CBT.

I do have a fundamental understanding of CVs.

BUT. That shouldn't matter. It doesn't take an ounce of critical thought or a CV main to understand the problems (And there are many) with CVs. I was merely highlighting one large problem being that it is not the ships themselves. At this point it the significant gap in player skill. Refute that.

If I go into a match against Farazellah in a T10 CV, with my current skill in CVs, which team is going to win 9 times out of 10?

If a below average player in a BB goes against a Unicum player, which team will win? Still 50/50. Why? Because BBs, CAs, DDs, don't singularly have as big an affect as a single CV (or two CVs working in unison) do.

I don't fault the carriers for this. I don't think they need to be nerfed as some seem to think I said in my video.

I suspect there is some purple monkey dishwasher going on here were people are suspecting I said something that I didn't, or they are reading what others are saying and assume I think CVs need a nerf or something ridiculous.

In honesty, I probably should have waded away from mentioning clans at all. But to be frank, that is the one format in which I don't care if there is a CV skill gap. That's the whole point of SL/KOTS and the like. To field the best team. I was trying to allude to WoWs clan battles, where yes, you have some great teams, but a lot of random weekend warriors as well.

The bottom line: Carriers have had issues from day one. You cannot deny this. No one can. They continue to have issues. These problems are compounded by a skill gap that continues to increase in size.

Why would a CV player trying to grind want to play in a T6 game, get stomped and have all his teammates chastise him because the other CV was super unicum and owned him? We don't do this to any other player in the mid tiers for the most part. Yet the CV is so vital, so important to the round overall, that players do.

Yes, there are other issues that affect everything regarding CVs Spotting mechanics, UI interface and a host of other things that make newcomers not want to play and give seasoned CV players fits even to this day.

We all know this. And there are some Unicum CV players that will openly admit this. They want change. But as with every ship class, there are some that don't. If you alter the ability for a player to play at a unicum level, I sense they will be highly protective and fight against those changes. or at least they will want change that keeps their own stats safe. And again, I am sure this is just a small population.

So how do we fix CVs? And yes, everyone has a say in this because your CV affects my ability to win regardless of what ship I play. We need polymorphic collaboration on this.

My immediate solution would be skill based MM for CVs. Not going to happen, but it would ensure an even playing field.

Some have mentioned mandatory training rounds. Still doesn't help the skill gap completely.

More than a few have mentioned removing manual drops completely. A bold move, Cotton. It would definitely even the playing field, but do we want to handcuff those who have worked hard to get where they are?

Or maybe CVs need to be removed indefinitely until they are reworked fir reals. Yes, I hear the screams of a few unicum CV mains with that suggestion. But honestly, at this point in T10 battles, I only see CVs one every ten rounds. If even. There is an influx due to various missions, but that is it.

And that is it. That was the whole point, and the driving topic of my video. It wasn't that CVs were OP. Or that they needed to be fixed. It was that they are the one class of ships that can affect an entire round and the skill gap has widened so much that its created an imbalance and a question posed to the community on how to fix them.

That question still stands.

Savvy?

  • Cool 16
  • Bad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,303
[PVE]
[PVE]
Members
4,112 posts
8,676 battles

Well Zoup, I have watch your video and I have to agree with you. CVs take a special skill set that a lot of players (like me) do not have. And if you and I faced off in CVs I would willing to lay down money you would win.

And this is not because you are CC, it is because I have no idea what the name of all the gods of the seas I am doing in a CV, I only did tier 4 in the two lines before I quit trying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,509
[O7]
Members
4,921 posts
8,751 battles

I think I love following crap storms more than I do making them. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
717
[NEUTR]
Members
2,207 posts
6,053 battles

Have not met any CV with "skills" that are impressive. The entire class of ship, the CVs, is just OP in the setting of this game's mechanics.

 

Also, lel, on someone depending on WG for handouts while critiquing WG.

 

WG's games are heavily dependent on camo and alpha damage. CV can spot the entire map and have enough alpha to sink any ship out right. That's just stupidly powerful. Imagine another class of ship having similar characteristics, the DDs, now for CVs add flying to DD. A flying DD, invisible, torps, and spotting the entire map all at the same time. 

 

Ideally, AA should be "manual" aiming, but that's not possible in this game engine.

Edited by NeutralState

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,259
[WOLF2]
Members
2,992 posts
5,204 battles

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree that the problem lies with CVs or the skill of the players who use them. I believe the problem lies in what other players are able to do about it. A large chunk of what a player can do about a CV is dependent on what ship they queue up with. Up next is what ships are put on their team. So the two biggest issues for all but 1 or 2 players are decided before the match even begins.

Then during the match, it's what, am I selecting the right squadrons, am I positioning to make myself a hard target, did I push the button to launch my fighter/activate defensive fire, did I turn into the torpedoes?

That's a pathetically small list, and most players don't even do that. We need to give players more skill based things to do to combat planes, because it's a 12v12 game, not 1v1.

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
73
[SALTY]
Members
116 posts
4,253 battles
1 minute ago, cometguy said:

That's a pathetically small list, and most players don't even do that. We need to give players more skill based things to do to combat planes, because it's a 12v12 game, not 1v1.

 

You have to wonder how many people got tired of being manually dropped and deleted without any real way to fight back that quit the game as a result. Relying on another player almost exclusively for protection simply isn't fun. I understand CV mains don't want to relinquish any power but the class needs to be reworked so it gets to a healthier place. It's not a larger issue right now only by virtue of the CV population being relatively low. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,459 posts
12,213 battles
13 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

 

If I go into a match against Farazellah in a T10 CV, with my current skill in CVs, which team is going to win 9 times out of 10?

 

I watched a couple of his ranked games on youtube and almost started to cry. Felt like learning Chinese would be easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,259
[WOLF2]
Members
2,992 posts
5,204 battles
3 minutes ago, harikari25 said:

 

You have to wonder how many people got tired of being manually dropped and deleted without any real way to fight back that quit the game as a result. Relying on another player almost exclusively for protection simply isn't fun. I understand CV mains don't want to relinquish any power but the class needs to be reworked so it gets to a healthier place. It's not a larger issue right now only by virtue of the CV population being relatively low. 

I still disagree that it's the CVs that need the rework, it's the AA mechanic. Give a potato and a fairly good player the same ship and put them in the same situation, and there won't be a difference in outcome, because player skill is a virtual non-factor for ships when it comes to planes. If that's the goal, then why not just have everyone select a bot to fight on their behalf?

  • Cool 2
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22,558
[HINON]
Supertester
18,966 posts
12,487 battles

Not that I think my opinion matters much in this debate, but ...

1) Zoup, I think you made your opinion and position perfectly clear in your video.

2) Zoup, I think that believing no poop storm would follow after a video like the one you posted is kinda naive, no matter how well you explained your position. People love controversy and you opened a big can of worms. There was no way that wasn't gonna end with a poop storm.

  • Cool 2
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,509
[O7]
Members
4,921 posts
8,751 battles
2 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I still disagree that it's the CVs that need the rework, it's the AA mechanic. Give a potato and a fairly good player the same ship and put them in the same situation, and there won't be a difference in outcome, because player skill is a virtual non-factor for ships when it comes to planes. If that's the goal, then why not just have everyone select a bot to fight on their behalf?

No, a players know how to mitigate and stall an enemy strike with maneuvering will still manifest as a difference. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,036
[WUDPS]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
4,741 posts
4,540 battles

I ran into your CV buddy last night, Fem...yeah on Ocean...needless to say CV's need a serious rework.

Points to touch on:

Infinite Loiter: she kept me spotted the whole match.

Insane Speeds: might aswell bring back the jets with the angled flight deck

Full AA spec zao...ZERO chance of dispersion of torp bombers.

Manual drops so close to the hull...no point in trying

 

When a tier X CV wants you dead, you die, period. 

If we cannot put in fuel limits, and a max range and speeds then remove the tier X cv. Fem is a super unicum in CV's and she showed it...our CV was ALMOST as bad as Warbeasty, the match was over before it began based on the CV's alone. 

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
125
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
196 posts
5,667 battles
10 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I still disagree that it's the CVs that need the rework, it's the AA mechanic. Give a potato and a fairly good player the same ship and put them in the same situation, and there won't be a difference in outcome, because player skill is a virtual non-factor for ships when it comes to planes. If that's the goal, then why not just have everyone select a bot to fight on their behalf?

I disagree with your statement:

The fairly good player isn't playing battleship wandering off by himself not turning in to a drop to mitigate damage and thus, getting wacked... and if he is playing cruiser he has defensive fire (or not wandering off by himself).. and if he is playing dd he is scouting just a head of his team but not too far.  

There is a large difference.

Edited by Simers72
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
462
[WOLF5]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
2,258 posts
24,831 battles

Back in Alpha, I said that WG was going to have the same issues with CVs that they did with arty in WoT.  And they have.  Both arty and CVs have a tremendous and disproportionate influence on games and that skill level disparity between the players in them would be the major deciding factor in games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,259
[WOLF2]
Members
2,992 posts
5,204 battles
9 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

No, a players know how to mitigate and stall an enemy strike with maneuvering will still manifest as a difference. 

Players who do that are rare enough that I consider them great, not fairly good. At either rate, I still contend that surface ship player skill is not sufficiently reflected in the engagement.

Edited by cometguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,459 posts
12,213 battles
23 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree that the problem lies with CVs or the skill of the players who use them. I believe the problem lies in what other players are able to do about it. A large chunk of what a player can do about a CV is dependent on what ship they queue up with. Up next is what ships are put on their team. So the two biggest issues for all but 1 or 2 players are decided before the match even begins.

Then during the match, it's what, am I selecting the right squadrons, am I positioning to make myself a hard target, did I push the button to launch my fighter/activate defensive fire, did I turn into the torpedoes?

That's a pathetically small list, and most players don't even do that. We need to give players more skill based things to do to combat planes, because it's a 12v12 game, not 1v1.

Would you consider your almost 1200 games in the Hiryu at 75% wr skill or just lucky to have teamed with great players all the time?

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
428
[INTEL]
Beta Testers
1,581 posts
3,918 battles
41 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

The bottom line: Carriers have had issues from day one. You cannot deny this. No one can. They continue to have issues. These problems are compounded by a skill gap that continues to increase in size.


More than a few have mentioned removing manual drops completely. A bold move, Cotton. It would definitely even the playing field, but do we want to handcuff those who have worked hard to get where they are?


Or maybe CVs need to be removed indefinitely until they are reworked fir reals. Yes, I hear the screams of a few unicum CV mains with that suggestion. But honestly, at this point in T10 battles, I only see CVs one every ten rounds. If even. There is an influx due to various missions, but that is it.

On the first two lines hang the crux of the problem.  I've given CV's the good ol' college try.  By the time I hit T6 (this is pre-Manual Attack removal), I had reached the conclusion that with the current implementation I would never even be able to rate 'not crap' with them.  But, in order to make them accessible to a player like me, the mechanics that make them what they are now need to change drastically - which will hose up all the CV mains who have learned to do it well as things stand.

Do I want to see them lose what they have worked so hard to develop?  Absolutely not.  But the CV population needs to increase if the type is ever going to be allowed into all competitive modes.  Which means that CV effectiveness in games overall needs to be reduced.  The 'easy mode' for this is to gradually nerf their offensive capabilities until they don't rule matches, but that would be so unsatisfying...


The last line there speaks to the CV population question.  I played a decent string of matches last night from tier 4 through tier 7.  Unusually, there were CV's in almost every match - down at T4 and T5, there were two each.  Perhaps there are newer players picking up the line.  I'm honestly not sure if that's a good thing or not.

Bottom line - in my opinion - the class needs to change drastically.  It has to be both easier to use for the player, and somehow have less affect on the match in proportion to the other ships on the board.  Now, that's a fine puzzle, and one I'm glad my paycheck is not dependent on solving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
73
[SALTY]
Members
116 posts
4,253 battles
13 minutes ago, Simers72 said:

I disagree with your statement:

The fairly good player isn't playing battleship wandering off by himself not turning in to a drop to mitigate damage and thus, getting wacked... and if he is playing cruiser he has defensive fire (or not wandering off by himself).. and if he is playing dd he is scouting just a head of his team but not too far.  

There is a large difference.

 

BBs can be deleted even if they're with their team and pushing. DFAA doesn't last forever. A DD can be perma spotted by a CV, have their smoke torped, and generally be canceled out almost entirely if they're found (which isn't super difficult based on map knowledge). Even ships that have AA that bites are just buying time until they become a worthwhile target. 

Let's not pretend like turning in to torp bombers and whatnot somehow tilts the engagement towards things being even. It doesn't. It's still not remotely close to even. And that's the point with carriers; they largely made all other surface combatants irrelevant. When you spike this with player skill differences and a ship that can be basically anywhere on the map it leads to the current situation which isn't healthy for the game. WG could probably make a credible argument at this point that removing CVs altogether would increase player retention and ultimately be more healthy for the game in the long run. The class is not in a good place. 

Edited by harikari25
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,259
[WOLF2]
Members
2,992 posts
5,204 battles
3 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

Would you consider your almost 1200 games in the Hiryu at 75% wr skill or just lucky to have teamed with great players all the time?

Depends on how you define skill. There are a lot of players who can execute strafes and strikes as well as me, and better. My success comes from the strategies I use to keep the rest of my team in a winning position. As a result of that, there's plenty of fleeing ships to pad damage and kill stats with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
273
[RUST]
Beta Testers
932 posts
10,354 battles
41 minutes ago, cometguy said:

That's a pathetically small list, and most players don't even do that. We need to give players more skill based things to do to combat planes, because it's a 12v12 game, not 1v1.

I agree that a good deal of the frustration against CV is the feeling of "nothing you can do" to mitigate a ton of damage in a 1v1 situation. You can argue that you shouldn't find yourself in that position in the first place, but it still doesn't remove that frustration. Against any other ship class there are things you can do to mitigate taking a large amount of damage in a 1v1 and you can find opportunities to outplay your opponent without being reliant on your teammates. 

Aside from AA, I think the problem with CV balance is simply too much alpha which means CV is balanced on a knife edge where it only takes a small tweak to make them too strong or too weak. I don't know how the mechanics can change to accommodate this, but I think reducing CV alpha but keeping overall DPM would help resolve a lot of problems with CV balance. This isn't so different from the problem WoT had with balancing Arty and a few other super high alpha TD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,269
[NERO]
Members
3,542 posts

Wait, how is it controversial to say that skill gap is the biggest problem with CVs? I had that figured out after my first five games in a CV. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59
[OO7]
[OO7]
Members
188 posts
8,955 battles

I agree with zoup. Well said. 

 

To those who think there is nothing you can do to counter a CV you are sorely mistaken. Some ships will have a harder time than others yes, but much like people learning to avoid torpedoes, or full bb salvos, you can learn to avoid or mitigate CV damage. Since cvs are not all that common, people don't make it a priority to learn or use those skills. 

I honestly love CVS in my battles, good or bad. It makes it more entertaining. Again, what zoup said about the skill gap between CV players is usually the biggest issues with CVS. (Unless one team has a few Des Moines and the other has zoa and moskva, that makes it tough too lol)

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,415 posts
6,082 battles

 I tried a CV for a mission or campaign wayyyyy back - over a years ago, year and a half ago.  I sucked big time and I mean big time.  I am a very average player but can have good games but I will never carry a team.  All ships you can get away with being an ok player or a group of ok players and do well. 

Problem is - CVs take so much more effort and ability to multitask AND know every ship and their abilities.  Things the average player will never do well or at all.  In CVs - it is mandatory.  In a CV you have to be able to see the entire layout of the battle (at least I have to) and I quickly get lost pretty quickly when I am not seeing the entire playing field.  No other ship or ship class needs to do these things to do ok to well in the game.  The average player - what most people are - are going to have a very difficult time to play CVs and team members will make massive assumptions that they know how to play well and can play well and then vent.

Between not playing on a 42 inch TV and the mini-map taking another portion of the screen - I just can't see enough and know where the planes are in relation to everything else.  With the older eyes of a person wearing glasses since first grade and now being 50+ - the size of the interfaces for CVs is just not conducive to playing well.

BTW - this is after reading Zoup's post - I have not seen the video in question.  CVs have problems and the skill needed - imho - is the first and largest one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
428
[INTEL]
Beta Testers
1,581 posts
3,918 battles
28 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I still disagree that it's the CVs that need the rework, it's the AA mechanic. Give a potato and a fairly good player the same ship and put them in the same situation, and there won't be a difference in outcome, because player skill is a virtual non-factor for ships when it comes to planes. If that's the goal, then why not just have everyone select a bot to fight on their behalf?

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective.

Take you and I, put us in the same CV and we'll each attack the same target with a combined strike.  You'll slaughter the target outright.  I might hit with one torpedo if I'm lucky.  This is regardless of the AA the target is fielding.  That is the disparity in CV skill I'm seeing in games as a target.

Now, if you're the poor sod who gets me driving a CV on your team, how do you drive your surface boat to overcome my lack of skill?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
73
[SALTY]
Members
116 posts
4,253 battles
1 minute ago, NCC81701 said:

Aside from AA, I think the problem with CV balance is simply too much alpha which means CV is balanced on a knife edge where it only takes a small tweak to make them too strong or too weak. I don't know how they mechanics can change to accommodate this, but I think reducing CV alpha but keeping overall DPM would help resolve a lot of problems with CV balance. This isn't so different from the problem WoT had with balancing Arty and a few other super high alpha TD.

I mean, this isn't super complicated. How would you reduce the alpha of something like a DD while keeping engagement high? Reduce torpedo cooldowns but also reduce their damage. I don't see why WG can't explore giving CVs more planes (or even more squadrons) but making those planes more fragile as a result. The frequency of sorties should be increased but each individual sortie sent out by a CV should have less potential damage. Right now there isn't even really a trade-off for using manual drops. There are so many things WG can do to rework the class. It isn't hopeless. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,459 posts
12,213 battles
1 minute ago, cometguy said:

Depends on how you define skill. There are a lot of players who can execute strafes and strikes as well as me, and better. My success comes from the strategies I use to keep the rest of my team in a winning position. As a result of that, there's plenty of fleeing ships to pad damage and kill stats with.

I am only mentioning wr.

Every time you are cornered you change the subject. But lets take that further.... Are you a worse ship player than you are a CV player or do you have equal skill in all ships? And knowing how to CV as well as you do, of all people you should know how to combat CV's with ships to neutralize them...(by your own arguments) yet your wr in all other 3 classes is on average drastically lower then your CV averages

Could it be that individual ships have no where near the impact a cv does? Could it be that you were just lucky a few thousand times to get those great CV wr's and horribly unlucky when you play other classes of ships? 

It doesn't go both ways, A highly skilled CV captain has 2x or 3x or even more influence than any other ship or ships in the game and your individual statistics prove it. 

Don't take that the wrong way, you are a very good player and very skilled CV captain but the numbers man, the numbers don't support any of your arguments.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×