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Happy668

Hindenburg vs Moskva

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from the other thread it seems people favor Hindenburg a lot, but i just don't get it, Moskva has longer range guns 19km vs 17km, 17% fire chance vs 13%, faster rudder shift, smaller turning circle, bigger HP pool, the only drawback i can see is 9 guns vs 12, and bigger detect range. i think Moskva is at least as good as Hindenburg if not better

Edited by Happy668
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Hindi is better, the only things the Moskva does better is radar and long range AP. If the fighting is anything else the Hindi will do better thanks to the higher ROF, better armor and torpedoes. The thing with long range AP is that if your enemy is not dumb it wont be very effective. 

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4 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

from the other thread it seems people favor Hindenburg a lot, but i just don't get it, Moskva has longer range guns 19km vs 17km, 17% fire chance vs 13%, faster rudder shift, smaller turning circle, bigger HP pool, the only drawback i can see is 9 guns vs 12, and bigger detect range. i think Moskva is at least as good as Hindenburg if not better

Hindenburg with the reload mod sets more fires than the zao which has the highest fire chance at the tier. Fire chance and range isn't all there is that factors into setting fires. Reload rate also matters as does the number of guns. Hindy has more guns and most importantly, better armor than the moskva. So hindy puts out more dpm than moskva and has better armor for kiting. The alpha on the ap  is awesome as well. 

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6 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

One has torp

yes i didn't notice they removed torp from t10, but when i drive CA i am not going to do close range dogfight, 6km torp i am not sure it's that useful anyway

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Just now, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Hindi is better, the only things the Moskva does better is radar and long range AP. If the fighting is anything else the Hindi will do better thanks to the higher ROF, better armor and torpedoes. The thing with long range AP is that if your enemy is not dumb it wont be very effective. 

From driving the loaners in the first CW I found the Hindenburg to be much better and can take a punch unlike the Moskva that can be citadeled by the Minotaur's 6".

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11 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

from the other thread it seems people favor Hindenburg a lot, but i just don't get it, Moskva has longer range guns 19km vs 17km, 17% fire chance vs 13%, faster rudder shift, smaller turning circle, bigger HP pool, the only drawback i can see is 9 guns vs 12, and bigger detect range. i think Moskva is at least as good as Hindenburg if not better

The element of stealth/detect range should not be underestimate it. It lets you decide whether you want to engage, lets you decide if you want to disengage, give you better strategic mobility around the map, and when you are detected a smaller detect range gives you far more hints about where that DD is since your detection area is only a small portion of the map. 

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both have 10sec reload

when kiting i tend to keep the max distance so i have time to maneuver, the 19km vs 17 is very important, and i don't think turtle back is a big deal since you don't want to get hit, not to tank, there faster rudder shift time and smaller turn circle make Moskva better at kiting

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This is why Hindy is better.

23kxfd.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

from the other thread it seems people favor Hindenburg a lot, but i just don't get it, Moskva has longer range guns 19km vs 17km, 17% fire chance vs 13%, faster rudder shift, smaller turning circle, bigger HP pool, the only drawback i can see is 9 guns vs 12, and bigger detect range. i think Moskva is at least as good as Hindenburg if not better

What is important for Moskva in order to survive is the 50mm midsection armor, as it can bounce any AP shell and will shatter most Cruiser HE shells. However Hindenburg can penetrate it due to the special HE shells, and therefore a bow-in Moskva (the one I seem to encounter the most) will not be able to use this armor against you, while you easily out-dpm it.

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8 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

both have 10sec reload

when kiting i tend to keep the max distance so i have time to maneuver, the 19km vs 17 is very important, and i don't think turtle back is a big deal since you don't want to get hit, not to tank, there faster rudder shift time and smaller turn circle make Moskva better at kiting

The 17 vs 19 is not as important as you think. The Hindi can bounce at more angles than the Moskva and has a better turn time. I know a lot of Hindi users use the range mod as well but I use reload and spotter plane so I can fire at farther targets when needed but get that juicy 8.8 second reload as well. 

 

Plus looking at the raw numbers is less helpful than many people think because KM HE gets 1/4 penetration instead of 1/6 which lets the Hindi penetrate 50 mm of armor with HE. That means it will have a more consistent damage and be less effected by damage saturation as well as being able to target ships traditionally pretty HE resistent like the moskva. 

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Given the fact the Moskva gets detected by ships in other games, is a priority target due to radar, and really easy to citadel, I prefer the Hindenburg.

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1 minute ago, TugboatCommander said:

Given the fact the Moskva gets detected by ships in other games, is a priority target due to radar, and really easy to citadel, I prefer the Hindenburg.

More or less this is a more detailed answer I should have given. Turtleback has saved my bacon MANY times, even from Yammy's. I take those kinda hits in a Zao and bam...citadel...Hindy...nope...you suck Yammy!

Moskva has a reputation for being OP (which it isn't at all) and it's Russian so people have ptsd from Russian cruisers/bias beating you silly with some mumbojumbo about the ship being OP. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

from the other thread it seems people favor Hindenburg a lot, but i just don't get it, Moskva has longer range guns 19km vs 17km, 17% fire chance vs 13%, faster rudder shift, smaller turning circle, bigger HP pool, the only drawback i can see is 9 guns vs 12, and bigger detect range. i think Moskva is at least as good as Hindenburg if not better

Hindenburg has far better armor, and is known for being absurdly hard to kill close range, while having a fantastic bow for tanking anything while properly angled.  Moskva has a massive citadel that can be hit by anything on your broadside, and lacks the amazing bow armor of the Hindenburg  

Hindenburg has 4x3 turrets while Moskva has 3x3.  25% more guns with decent firing angles is always better

Moskva can be spotted from the moon.  Hindenburg, while not stealthy, still has 12.2km detection if spec'ed for it.  

Torps.  Hindenburg has probably the best suicide torps in the game, and you have the armor to make them work.  Moskva severely lacks in this department.  Up close and personal, a Hindenburg will win every time.  

The Moskva has two main things going for it.  It has railguns with fantastic AP and HE performance at basically any range.  It can pen basically all battleships and reliably citadel anything.  The radar is extremely nice to have, but it's not what makes the ship good.  You have to get into ranges you would not normally push into to use Moskva radar to its potential.  I don't believe that the gun performance alone is enough to overcome all the benefits the Hindenburg has comparatively.   

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49 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

....than the zao which has the highest fire chance at the tier.

Stares in Henri......:fish_book:

42 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

both have 10sec reload

when kiting i tend to keep the max distance so i have time to maneuver, the 19km vs 17 is very important, and i don't think turtle back is a big deal since you don't want to get hit, not to tank, there faster rudder shift time and smaller turn circle make Moskva better at kiting

Except the Hindenburg outputs more damage.  The Hindenburg hard counters the Moskva, and it all comes down to the guns.  The Hindenburg has superior DPM, fire starting rate and alpha strike.  Short of shooting AP at max range and using radar, the Hindenburg just does everything better than the Moskva.  The Hindenburg's special 1/4 HE pen even nullifies the Moskva's  biggest strength, its 50mm plates.  All told this just makes the Moskva one fat big XP piñata.  

In non head to head fights, the Hindenburg is similarly better.  The Hindenburg out puts more damage, which makes it better at burning BBs and far superior at killing other cruisers at everything except maximum range.  The Hindenburg's turtleback isn't even all that important as you never want to be showing broadside anyway, but it does act as a get out of jail free card.    

The Moskva may be tanky, but it is also the least stealthy tier 10 ship in the game, even the Kurfurst is stealthier when running full concealment, and it is also a massive target.  It is highly vulnerable when showing broadside, and it just melts when under sustained Hindenburg HE fire, again that 1/4 pen.  The Moskva is not a good brawler because it's too sluggish and too vulnerable to being flanked, and on the opposite end of the spectrum the Moskva is an inferior kiter simply because it outputs less damage. 

Edited by yashma
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Imagine you are in port and thinking about playing the Moskva....well you are already being shot at because your thoughts are detected. And by the time the game starts your priority target number is 12. 

Moskva would be great if you always had division buddies to play with...but for a solo ship the Hindy is so much more versatile. Moskva is tons of fun....but very often you get trapped and have to back up and bow tank for ages.

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Hindenburg's strengths work together better than Moskva's. They are both extremely good ships in their own right and Hinden only wins out with small numbers. It's not like comparing Izumo to Musashi where the is a winner, It's more like Kutuzov vs Chapayev where the winner is decided by play-style rather than obvious strengths.

Hindenburg Moskvas just as well as moskva, but also does other things at the cost of range.

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44 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

yes i didn't notice they removed torp from t10, but when i drive CA i am not going to do close range dogfight, 6km torp i am not sure it's that useful anyway

You'll thank the torps when it's late game and you are man on man with a BB. 

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21 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

Imagine you are in port and thinking about playing the Moskva....well you are already being shot at because your thoughts are detected. And by the time the game starts your priority target number is 12. 

Moskva would be great if you always had division buddies to play with...but for a solo ship the Hindy is so much more versatile. Moskva is tons of fun....but very often you get trapped and have to back up and bow tank for ages.

I've been doing that quite a bit lately with friends in their Moskva's. It's not uncommon to see the Moska take a shell from the front and lose 50% of it's health. Outside of radar and flat AP shell arcs, it's got nothing good going for it. The players who excel in it, excel through sheer skill. 

Mosk is arguably the worst cruiser at Tier X (in my opinion). Des Moines is all around a much better radar boat, it has a faster reaction time to DD's. 

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1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

Hindenburg with the reload mod sets more fires than the zao which has the highest fire chance at the tier. Fire chance and range isn't all there is that factors into setting fires. Reload rate also matters as does the number of guns. Hindy has more guns and most importantly, better armor than the moskva. So hindy puts out more dpm than moskva and has better armor for kiting. The alpha on the ap  is awesome as well. 

13% fire vs 17%, i don't know how hindenburg starts more fire, that 4% difference, considering deduction of fire chance by all ships, that translates to 50% or more fires

i don't have the numbers, but i remember every ship has basic fire deduction, say -8%, that means hinderburg has 5% fire while moskva has 9%, that's huge difference

Edited by Happy668

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58 minutes ago, Happy668 said:

both have 10sec reload

when kiting i tend to keep the max distance so i have time to maneuver, the 19km vs 17 is very important, and i don't think turtle back is a big deal since you don't want to get hit, not to tank, there faster rudder shift time and smaller turn circle make Moskva better at kiting

The reload is actually a bit slower on the Moskva, and if you go and calculate some numbers you will see how much of a difference the extra guns on Hindenburg make.

  AP Alpha per broadside AP dpm HE Alpha per broadside HE dpm Fires per minute
Hindenburg 70800 424800 30000 180000 9.36
Moskva 52200 302609 27900 162524 8.91

 

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Have both. But if I feel like I wanna take out a T10 cruiser I usually choose the Hindenburg. Enough stealt to decide when to engage, good AP and HE, excellent AA and for close combat turtleback and 8 torps per side with excellent angles. Flamu made a clip about T10 cruisers pointing out there strenght and weaknesses. And he showed in the training rooms that it’s nearly impossible to citadel a Hindenburg with another cruiser im close combat. 

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21 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

The reload is actually a bit slower on the Moskva, and if you go and calculate some numbers you will see how much of a difference the extra guns on Hindenburg make.

  AP Alpha per broadside AP dpm HE Alpha per broadside HE dpm Fires per minute
Hindenburg 70800 424800 30000 180000 9.36
Moskva 52200 302609 27900 162524 8.91

 

see my last post, that fire per minute didn't account for fire resistance from all ships

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