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Final_Spark

Which Tiers Haven't Been "Ruined"

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With Ranked mode's 8th season now complete and new theories on what Wargaming could be cooking up for the next season are already popping up I was wondering just what could be the best tier for the mode at this time. My main concern is on premium ships as not everyone will have access to them (especially if they are no longer being sold or were reward ships).

Here's my thoughts at least:

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  • Tier 1:

Well, at least everyone can have access to these ships. Low tiers just don't seem very exciting at all for competitive play.

  • Tier 2:

DDs appear. Thing is that pretty much everything is still pretty slow. Not much hp either so there can be a hard cap on what a player can accomplish no matter how they play. There's also a few premiums that some players may not have access too, but I haven't payed much attention to game balance in this area.

  • Tier 3:

BBs now. Protected cruisers seem to be a bit more in their element at this tier. Still have the inefficient maneuverability and firepower dynamics going on that can drive some players nuts. Konig Albert sort of busts things on the BB front since it's too good to be sold.

  • Tier 4:

Oh boy, the land of Imp Nik. If that weren't enough, remember that Arkansas Beta was also buffed fairly recently. Iwaki Alpha is on the cruiser side with its unique upgrade giving it insane accuracy. At least here there are powerful non-premiums to consider, mainly the Clemson. CVs might actually be a bit more popular since it is such low tier, but being forced into auto drops and having low hangar reserves still makes them painful.

  • Tier 5:

A strong contender for a future season and has hosted the mode back when ranked included multiple tiers. Unfortunately we're saddled with more questionable premiums. The Kamikazes and Gremyashchy take the crown for OP DDs and are no longer being sold. Both pretty much dominate over their tech tree equivalents. The new addition in Giulio Cesare also rocks the boat as the OP BB contender and can nearly wipe out any reason to bring a cruiser by itself. Standard BBs not named New York at least stand a chance at this tier. Cruisers are citadel pinatas here.

  • Tier 6:

We saw it for Season 7. Honestly, this at least for now seems like a tier relatively untouched by destructive premiums. I can agree with Arizona and Warspite being the more optimal choices compared with New Mexico and Queen Elizabeth, but the other non-premiums in Fuso and Bayern aren't half bad. Cruisers are generally well balanced between each other with Perth and Graf Spee having interesting twists with their own weaknesses they have to contend with. IFHE Budyonny and Cleveland still do fairly well for cruisers. DDs are mainly stuck on the stealthy torpedo boat role or unstealthy gunboat role. Anshan and now Fushun seem to get the closest at hybrids, but not overwhelmingly so.

The only real issue I had with this season was the balance between the ship types. BBs seemed quite a bit more powerful at this tier without much being able to deal with them. CLs were quite vulnerable while DDs couldn't really get close enough and survive to do much with torps. Perhaps the smoke changes may have changed this somewhat.

  • Tier 7:

Oh god please no. The tier most flooded by ridiculous premiums. Payfast needs no introduction. Indianapolis and Atlanta also help pack the radar. Fiji is just about the only non-premium CL to really be worthwhile here. DDs have the trifecta of the Leningrad, Blyskawica, and Sims. Lenin and Blys are solid hybrids leaning to the gunboat side and can be built for pure gunboating. Sims is a master knife fighter with an absurd bonus to its base exp allowing for easy star saving. Non-premium DDs only really have the Gadjha Mada as an answer as Shiratsuyu has to choose between TRB and smoke while the others really don't have the stealth to compete. The BB spectrum now packs Scharnhorst, Nelson, and Hood as their solid premium core. Nagato and Gneisenau are at least decent for this tier. CVs are also another horror show with Saipan and Kaga for those who really want to mine salt.

  • Tier 8:

The most recent ranked tier. Many have said that this tier is the most well balanced and I can partially agree with that statement. BBs feel tanky and can hit hard, DDs are flexible and stealthy with useful torps, CA/CLs have great support elements or fearsome dpm. CVs even work out with enough power to be feasible, but still beatable. We still do have a few trouble premiums here however. Enterprise tends to overpower Lexington. Kutuzov is very annoying as a long range smoke cruiser spewing IFHE, but at least it has to use its range to keep itself healthy which can keep it away from the critical cap battles. Lo Yang is the biggest issue here with its practically tier 9.5 German hydro (seriously, it's between Z-46 and Z-52 hydro range).

The premiums are beatable, but some of them can really tip the balance especially if one team ends up with more of them. Note that WoWS-Numbers reports Lo Yang as the second most popular DD this season; beating out all non-premiums except Benson.

  • Tier 9:

A bit of a forgotten tier. It's too high to really include most players and has some awkward issues. I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, but I seriously doubt much consideration will go toward it. The problem here is the only premiums that exist here. Missouri especially as it's just a straight up better Iowa all thanks to the radar it packs. Black is a somewhat rare ship that brings the radar/smoke combo we all know and "love." The shorter range and duration bring it much more in line with Z-46's hydro, but you can still make the argument that it's strictly better than Chung Mu at least. Musashi is basically the counterpick toward the Missouri spam with its survivability and overmatching guns.

Non-premiums are at least no slouches here. Fletcher, Yugumo, and Z-46 all being solid DDs. While somewhat outmatched by the premiums, the non-premium BBs can still be powerful in the right hands. Cruisers have a dud or two in the lineup, but an important consideration is that the radar duration upgrade can be used here. Baltimores and Neptunes can be packing 49 second radars with Donskoi able to have 28 seconds.

This is the radar tier. Have fun DD players.

  • Tier 10:

Already used for Super League and especially Clan Wars. This is also the hardest tier for the the general population to bring. No chance of it being used for normal Ranked.

 

 

Honestly, restricting premiums from Ranked altogether keeps sounding like a decent idea, and that's coming from someone who has used premiums to rank out before (Blys is bliss). That said, there's no way this will happen.

Anyways, thoughts?

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I would like to see ranked be about how you perform, not counting win rate, over a certain number of matches than about how well you teams perform. Make it 100 matches over the current time that ranked runs in what ever tier is chosen with everyone ranked on that performance. The top ten percent would get the same rewards as ranking out gives with each following 10% (20%, 30%) getting something less. I think a lot more people would get involved with this kind of setup.

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i dont want 123, ships are too weak

4 -> can we ban nikolai?

5 -> can we ban kamikaze family?

6 is good

7 -> hell no

8 -> sure?

9 and 10 big yes from me(if we can ban black from T9 rank that'd be even better)

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this may sound weird but what about a three ship restriction

Example: New Mexico, Bayern,and Queen Elizabeth

                  Budyonny, Nuremberg,  and Aoba

                  Fubuki,Farragut, and Gaede

                 Independence,Ryujo                  

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Would be interesting to see tier 6 again since the smoke-fire-detection changes.

I remember certain maps in season 7 being extremely smokey with no enemies visible for several minutes at a time.

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Ranked should be T8 up to 15 and 9-10 after. I have always thought that.  If ranked is supposed to be serious play, play serious boats. Problem is, WG hasn't balanced them well enough (imho) and not enough people have them(sad)...

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Ranks 11-23 get tier 8 ships.

Ranks 6-10 get tier 7.

Ranks 2-5 get tier 6.

Rank 1 gets tier 5.

No separation between the leagues, everyone queues up together. :Smile_trollface:

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I get the pain, but T7 does have some great ships.

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I think WG should keep releasing OP premiums. That's definitely good for the game.

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47 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

i dont want 123, ships are too weak

Please tell me you didn't just say St Louis is too weak. Tier 3 would be a very good tier for ranked, a serious lack of gimmicky ships, just basics and skill, and with the exception of Konig Albert, no really OP ships.

49 minutes ago, jason199506 said:

5 -> can we ban kamikaze family?

It astounds me that so many players are so scared of these ships, especially since when they originally came out they were considered "meh" at best since they were very much like the (then) Minikaze, except NOT having the 10 K torps. Now that the entire IJN DD line has been nerfed into the mud, suddenly the Kami's are OP. They all have serious limitations, and are very much "Glass Cannons" but with torps instead of guns. In three years you'd think some players would stop being scared.

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I agree that there's a serious problem with at least one badly overpowered premium ship at every tier from 7 to 9 that would seriously dominate the ranked environment of small teams, small maps and very high-value caps.

 

Tier 7 already saw a season pretty much ruined by Belfast.

Tier 8 is really questionable because of how much the outcome of the game comes down to which team has more/better Lo Yangs.

Tier 9 would basically be which team has the better Missouri players.  Blacks and radar cruiser aren't nearly as oppressive as a bow-tanking monster with 80k hitpoints that can keep your team off a cap for a decisive amount of time.

 

It's these (exclusively premium) ships that can push up the cap and stop the enemy team from capping, usually while getting one or more enemy DD's severely damaged or killed.  With the small team sizes and how fast the points tick up in ranked, that's all it takes to win.

 

I'm not sure how much of an issue ships like Kamikaze, Gremyaschi, Nicolai and Cesare really would be.  They outperform other ships in combat but they can't flat-out stop your team from getting a cap that increments 9 points per tick.  Maybe tier 4 or 5 would actually work ok.  Or maybe we should just do 6 again because there aren't any crazy stupid premiums.  I really don't see WG doing a ranked season where they ban the use of premium ships because I'm sure many players have bought them in the past specifically for use in ranked seasons.

 

Maybe they really do just need to throw in the towel and do it at tier 10.  They obviously put a lot of work into trying to make each ship at that tier competitive and it generally works out.  No crazy premiums and it's probably got the best ship type balance of any tier (because it's where cruisers are actually good for something other than just radar.)  The problem there is the ships are very time-consuming to obtain and also expensive to run for non-premium players and many people don't even have one, much less a stable to choose from.

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After tier 6 the maps are all garbage and the fun goes down to zero what with ap bombs and radar and all the other rubbish involved.

Tier 2/3/4 are amazing with 1 vs 1 random battles.

Tier 5 is solid with the best map selection.

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The options open up a lot if WG is willing to "retire" premiums from competitive modes if they go on the no-longer-sold list. Alternatively, allow only premiums that in the store for the period in which the season takes place, but that would require them to sync the stores across regions, as my understanding is they're not always identical.

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9 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

The options open up a lot if WG is willing to "retire" premiums from competitive modes if they go on the no-longer-sold list. Alternatively, allow only premiums that in the store for the period in which the season takes place, but that would require them to sync the stores across regions, as my understanding is they're not always identical.

Or, possibly, (and this is just a thought), they could quit making and selling totally OP, Pay-To-Win premium ships?

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30 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Please tell me you didn't just say St Louis is too weak. Tier 3 would be a very good tier for ranked, a serious lack of gimmicky ships, just basics and skill, and with the exception of Konig Albert, no really OP ships.

Bellopheron is more OP than Konig Albert imo, If there ever was a T3 ranked those would be the only acceptable BBs

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1 hour ago, Final_Spark said:

With Ranked mode's 8th season now complete and new theories on what Wargaming could be cooking up for the next season are already popping up I was wondering just what could be the best tier for the mode at this time. My main concern is on premium ships as not everyone will have access to them (especially if they are no longer being sold or were reward ships).

Here's my thoughts at least:

  •  
  Reveal hidden contents
  • Tier 1:

Well, at least everyone can have access to these ships. Low tiers just don't seem very exciting at all for competitive play.

  • Tier 2:

DDs appear. Thing is that pretty much everything is still pretty slow. Not much hp either so there can be a hard cap on what a player can accomplish no matter how they play. There's also a few premiums that some players may not have access too, but I haven't payed much attention to game balance in this area.

  • Tier 3:

BBs now. Protected cruisers seem to be a bit more in their element at this tier. Still have the inefficient maneuverability and firepower dynamics going on that can drive some players nuts. Konig Albert sort of busts things on the BB front since it's too good to be sold.

  • Tier 4:

Oh boy, the land of Imp Nik. If that weren't enough, remember that Arkansas Beta was also buffed fairly recently. Iwaki Alpha is on the cruiser side with its unique upgrade giving it insane accuracy. At least here there are powerful non-premiums to consider, mainly the Clemson. CVs might actually be a bit more popular since it is such low tier, but being forced into auto drops and having low hangar reserves still makes them painful.

  • Tier 5:

A strong contender for a future season and has hosted the mode back when ranked included multiple tiers. Unfortunately we're saddled with more questionable premiums. The Kamikazes and Gremyashchy take the crown for OP DDs and are no longer being sold. Both pretty much dominate over their tech tree equivalents. The new addition in Giulio Cesare also rocks the boat as the OP BB contender and can nearly wipe out any reason to bring a cruiser by itself. Standard BBs not named New York at least stand a chance at this tier. Cruisers are citadel pinatas here.

  • Tier 6:

We saw it for Season 7. Honestly, this at least for now seems like a tier relatively untouched by destructive premiums. I can agree with Arizona and Warspite being the more optimal choices compared with New Mexico and Queen Elizabeth, but the other non-premiums in Fuso and Bayern aren't half bad. Cruisers are generally well balanced between each other with Perth and Graf Spee having interesting twists with their own weaknesses they have to contend with. IFHE Budyonny and Cleveland still do fairly well for cruisers. DDs are mainly stuck on the stealthy torpedo boat role or unstealthy gunboat role. Anshan and now Fushun seem to get the closest at hybrids, but not overwhelmingly so.

The only real issue I had with this season was the balance between the ship types. BBs seemed quite a bit more powerful at this tier without much being able to deal with them. CLs were quite vulnerable while DDs couldn't really get close enough and survive to do much with torps. Perhaps the smoke changes may have changed this somewhat.

  • Tier 7:

Oh god please no. The tier most flooded by ridiculous premiums. Payfast needs no introduction. Indianapolis and Atlanta also help pack the radar. Fiji is just about the only non-premium CL to really be worthwhile here. DDs have the trifecta of the Leningrad, Blyskawica, and Sims. Lenin and Blys are solid hybrids leaning to the gunboat side and can be built for pure gunboating. Sims is a master knife fighter with an absurd bonus to its base exp allowing for easy star saving. Non-premium DDs only really have the Gadjha Mada as an answer as Shiratsuyu has to choose between TRB and smoke while the others really don't have the stealth to compete. The BB spectrum now packs Scharnhorst, Nelson, and Hood as their solid premium core. Nagato and Gneisenau are at least decent for this tier. CVs are also another horror show with Saipan and Kaga for those who really want to mine salt.

  • Tier 8:

The most recent ranked tier. Many have said that this tier is the most well balanced and I can partially agree with that statement. BBs feel tanky and can hit hard, DDs are flexible and stealthy with useful torps, CA/CLs have great support elements or fearsome dpm. CVs even work out with enough power to be feasible, but still beatable. We still do have a few trouble premiums here however. Enterprise tends to overpower Lexington. Kutuzov is very annoying as a long range smoke cruiser spewing IFHE, but at least it has to use its range to keep itself healthy which can keep it away from the critical cap battles. Lo Yang is the biggest issue here with its practically tier 9.5 German hydro (seriously, it's between Z-46 and Z-52 hydro range).

The premiums are beatable, but some of them can really tip the balance especially if one team ends up with more of them. Note that WoWS-Numbers reports Lo Yang as the second most popular DD this season; beating out all non-premiums except Benson.

  • Tier 9:

A bit of a forgotten tier. It's too high to really include most players and has some awkward issues. I wouldn't be opposed to trying it, but I seriously doubt much consideration will go toward it. The problem here is the only premiums that exist here. Missouri especially as it's just a straight up better Iowa all thanks to the radar it packs. Black is a somewhat rare ship that brings the radar/smoke combo we all know and "love." The shorter range and duration bring it much more in line with Z-46's hydro, but you can still make the argument that it's strictly better than Chung Mu at least. Musashi is basically the counterpick toward the Missouri spam with its survivability and overmatching guns.

Non-premiums are at least no slouches here. Fletcher, Yugumo, and Z-46 all being solid DDs. While somewhat outmatched by the premiums, the non-premium BBs can still be powerful in the right hands. Cruisers have a dud or two in the lineup, but an important consideration is that the radar duration upgrade can be used here. Baltimores and Neptunes can be packing 49 second radars with Donskoi able to have 28 seconds.

This is the radar tier. Have fun DD players.

  • Tier 10:

Already used for Super League and especially Clan Wars. This is also the hardest tier for the the general population to bring. No chance of it being used for normal Ranked.

 

 

Honestly, restricting premiums from Ranked altogether keeps sounding like a decent idea, and that's coming from someone who has used premiums to rank out before (Blys is bliss). That said, there's no way this will happen.

Anyways, thoughts?

My thought is that if it's permanently removed from sale, it could/should be disallowed.  I say this as a Belfast owner, who would stand to lose by this ruling in any future T7 seasons.

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9 minutes ago, Dodgy_Cookies said:

Bellopheron is more OP than Konig Albert imo, If there ever was a T3 ranked those would be the only acceptable BBs

But Bellopheron hasn't been pulled from acquisition, KA has, so that is WoW's opinion. At tier 3 I wouldn't be playing ANY of the BB's in ranked.

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One of the early seasons of Ranked had a tier 6 start and once you hit a certain level, might have been 15 or less, you moved up to tier 8. I like this formula. If your skill only meets to tier 6 quality you dont move up and get to ruin tier 8 games. Also, the whole premiums ruining ranked is just silly. If you cant figure out how to counter 30 seconds or less of radar, stay at tier 6. 

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2 hours ago, Final_Spark said:

CVs might actually be a bit more popular since it is such low tier, but being forced into auto drops and having low hangar reserves still makes them painful.

'Forced' into auto drops? I killed three 'maneuvering' destroyers in a recent game with Langley.

T4 would bring out CV sealclubbing like you wouldn't believe. Without having to worry about getting strafed to death, generally low AA, and small teams; low-tier CVs would be easy street...

...at least for experienced players.

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I'm completely opposed to the idea of banning any ships for ranked, premium or otherwise. Not just on principle, but because no ships are so powerful that they need banning. For the most part, the player that's good enough to reliably punch your ticket in an "OP" ship will do it in a lesser ship as well. The balance spread in this game is actually a lot tighter than it is in many comparable titles. It's one of the game's real strengths. 

That all said, I would like to see Tier V as the next ranked tier. Cruisers a bit weak at that tier, but the three other classes make a good showing.

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