A solution for JP DD.

[Apokita]

I have big problems at were the IJN DD are right now. They are... the worst DD line and the most unfun one to play. You depend completely on how potato the enemy team is to eat your torps and how little map awareness the enemy DDs have to guess your position and hunt you down. IJN DD are the ships who can't do anything themselves and depend entirely on the mistakes of others to suceed. 
And I hate it, a lot, since I used to enjoy the old Minekaze to the core, she was insanely fun to play because her torpedoes were strong enough to punish players without relying on their mistakes. 
But there is also the problem of the focus of the IJN DD line, their torpedoes. The torpedoes themselves are insane, and their damage is just incomparable, but i'd rather hit for half their alpha and be able to do anything else rather than send the torpedoes and be a scared kitten for two minutes until they're back again. So, making this torpedoes stronger is out of the question, it will just make the bad players suffer them more, and the good ones will not care at all about it. So, we need to take a different approach to it.
And I was thinking, why don't we get rid of the HE shells, give them only AP, give them US angles of pen and reduce their reload time?
This way, they can punish broadside targets very well, they'll be able to battle destroyers who give them broadside and they'll be able to farm damage from battleships/heavy cruisers by hitting their broadsides in the belt or superstructure with good alpha damage. 
This way, their guns will become the source of damage and the torpedoes a way to make them work. A skilled IJN DD cap will be able to use their torpedoes to force the enemy into a broadside position and use their high broadside firepower to do high bursts of damage and then use their concealment to disengage. This way we'll see a "ninja" style of play from them, like an extreme version of the german DD. They'll still have lots of disadvantages like being bad if the enemy is angled, worst HP of all DD, worst range, slow af, bad turret trasverse (this must not change, you must be able to prepare your field before opening fire) and bad capping. 
 

[Spyde]

Get rid of HE ? Such a terrible Idea.   IJN DD's are fine.. and can do very well when played correctly.

 

Give them USN DD reload time ?  You trying to make the most OP DD line in the game ?

 

[Apokita]

Just now, Spyde said:

Get rid of HE ? Such a terrible Idea.   IJN DD's are fine.. and can do very well when played correctly.

 

Give them USN DD reload time ?  You trying to make the most OP DD line in the game ?

 

They only "do well" because one reason. You basically go in and throw torpedoes into a big blob of battleships and they're bound to hit eventually. That's not good play. It's frustrating for both the IJN DD and the battleship players. 
Why do you think getting rid of HE is a bad Idea? implying that HE can do something when your ship has 7s of reload speed. 

[skull_122_steel]

the IJN DDs are not and will never be gun boats the problem with them is the detection range on the torpedoes just lower that and and give them a little less reload time and they should be fine

[IronWolfV]

Just now, _RC1138 said:

Something has to be. Like there *has* to be something that is the bottom of the pile, why is it so offensive that IJN DD's are the ones at the bottom? And I don't even agree that IJN DD's are the worst, but pretending they are for arguement's sake, big deal. Something has to be the worst and it's the IJN DD's that get to be it.

Wouldn't be so bad if bottom of the pile was still a very tight race like .1% difference. Many times last place regardless of which nation it is can be off by as much as 2%. That's a problem.

[Spyde]

8 minutes ago, Apokita said:

They only "do well" because one reason. You basically go in and throw torpedoes into a big blob of battleships and they're bound to hit eventually. That's not good play. It's frustrating for both the IJN DD and the battleship players. 
Why do you think getting rid of HE is a bad Idea? implying that HE can do something when your ship has 7s of reload speed. 

I actually played The Fubuki / Shira / Kagero in Ranked seasons to Rank 1. It is very possible and viable to out gun the other Nations DD's when done correctly.

[warpath_33]

The guns are fine. Just reduce the torpedo detection by as little as 100m or don't let them bleed so much speed in a turn and we're good to go.

[axyarthur]

I always think that IJN DDs are too much of a one-trick-pony. If you don't hit your torpedoes, you will have a bad game. Sure you can cap and spot, but those don't reward as well. Funny thing is, all other DD lines, when they get to higher tiers, can use both guns and torps somewhat effectively. Sure the RU DDs will rarely need to torp, but they still get decent range (8-9 km) on their torps. IJN DDs are the only 1-dimensional DDs in the game. To fix them, I feel making their guns more viable is the key. I'm not asking for gun power parity with US or KM DDs, just lessen the gap. Make their reload 5.5 - 6s (still worse than other DD lines), but have higher HE alpha. That way, they can use their superior stealth to get first shot in and do damage, but will still lose in a sustain gunfight. Right now, IJN DDs just get roll over by any other DDs unless they get lucky torp hit.

[Apokita]

14 minutes ago, Spyde said:

I actually played The Fubuki / Shira / Kagero in Ranked seasons to Rank 1. It is very possible and viable to out gun the other Nations DD's when done correctly.

That's why I want to get rid of HE. If we improve the guns the IJN HE will be the best of the pack. That's not good, becuase they have the best gun characterstics of the DD. 
Except for the reload speed who makes all those great things like shell speed, good trayectory, nice alphas go to waste because the DPM is worse than Minotaur with 152mm. 

[Apokita]

10 minutes ago, warpath_33 said:

The guns are fine. Just reduce the torpedo detection by as little as 100m or don't let them bleed so much speed in a turn and we're good to go.

No, if you do this, the IJN torps will be just too powerful. Their alpha is very insane and the amount of them on ships like shiratsuyu and shima will overpower anything. The idea is to make them actual ships and not torpedo-bot who goes stealth mode all game and doesnt cap doesnt do anything other than fish for torpedo hits

[IronWolfV]

3 minutes ago, Apokita said:

No, if you do this, the IJN torps will be just too powerful. Their alpha is very insane and the amount of them on ships like shiratsuyu and shima will overpower anything. The idea is to make them actual ships and not torpedo-bot who goes stealth mode all game and doesnt cap doesnt do anything other than fish for torpedo hits

With the prevalence of A LOT of hydro, Vigilance, and TAS1, wouldn't change much. And to me, no difference between being blown to pieces by torps, or a hail of gunfire. At the end of the day, you're still dead. D-E-D DEAD.

[Sovereigndawg]

5 minutes ago, axyarthur said:

I always think that IJN DDs are too much of a one-trick-pony.

That trick is spotting. IJN dd's are like herd dogs that are seldom seen. The guns hit hard and accurate, If anyone would use them, and why not if you are already spotted. The torps keep the other team moving where you want them to. What IJN dd's need, to be good, is more credit for spotting which is what they do best and possibly is the most important aspect of any battle.

[PelicanHazard]

26 minutes ago, Spyde said:

I actually played The Fubuki / Shira / Kagero in Ranked seasons to Rank 1. It is very possible and viable to out gun the other Nations DD's when done correctly.

I was screwing around in PTS by making builds that emphasized guns a bit more than pure torpedo builds on Kag, Yuugumo, and Shima, and had a pretty good laugh at the results. One red Benson didn't seem to know what to do with a Kag that fired back and lost half his health being a bit dumb (before an Alsace ruined my party and shoved some AP up my aft).

[Lert]

Making them gunboats is not the solution, especially when they can only fire useless AP that any sort of meaningful armor makes useless.

[KingCakeBaby]

The IJN DDs are not the worst DD line in the game. Specialized sure, but they operate in a manner that makes them very deadly when used correctly. They boast the best concealment, so using them to spot targets within the cap circles while other DDs and cruisers obliterate them is really fun, as is closing to 6km to a BB and letting that wall of torpedoes do its thing knowing there's no way they can possibly avoid them is part of the drive that makes me log on every day. Their guns are also not as bad as people want to believe them to be. You're not likely going to win a slugging match with a DD at any other nation, but you can act as a force multiplier when the situation presents itself and finish off targets of opportunity. They can also deny entire sections of the map to enemy players. It's frustrating when your team refuses to back you up in a cap circle and its frustrating when your juicy targets are surrounded by ships packing radar and hydro, but that's not really a game killer for me.

Personally, I think the worst DD line in the game right now is the USN. They're still good, but the Soviet, German, Pan Asian and even IJN gunboats can and do outperform them in terms of ballistics and survivability which robs them of their original roles and makes them more of a jack of all trades and a master of none. 

[NeutralState]

The line's fine, different play style, see average win rates.

[Ronin_ICOP]

With respect, I do not believe removing HE from IJN DDs is the answer. The IJN DD line were designed to be stealthy torpedo boats. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

	Benson	Kagero
Gun Reload Time	3.3	7
Gun Damage	1800/2100 (5x1)	1800/2200 (3x2)
180 Turret Traverse	5.3	26.1
HE Fire Chance	5%	7%
Gun Range	11.6	9.4
Shell Velocity	792	915
Torpedo Reload Time	122	110
Torpedo Damage	16633 (2x5)	20967 (2x4)
Torpedo Range	9.2	10
Torpedo Speed	55	67
Torpedo Detectability	1.1	1.7

 

In my opinion, these numbers suggest that the US DD line were intended to be gun boats, with torpedo backup. The IJN DD line, torpedo boats, with gun backup. This is a generalization, of course. But the Benson has roughly twice the rounds per minute at roughly the same damage per round, making her guns (in the hands of equally skilled players) more effective. We can argue the increasing difficulty of hitting small targets at longer ranges, but the fact remains that the Benson puts a lot more shells in the air. And at close and mid range, she is the far superior gunboat.

The Kagero torpedo reload is a little faster. And the Kagero torpedoes do roughly 4300 more damage per strike, but have 20% fewer torpedoes per volley, which limits damage over time to within a similar range.

If there is to be any significant change to improve IJN DD effectiveness, I believe it is to be found in the Torpedo Detectability range. The Hsienyang, the new Tier 8 Pan-Asian DD, has a torpedo detection range of a mere .7 km, a thousand meters shorter than the Kagero. While I understand that the PA DD line torpedoes cannot hit DDs, their strike potential against CAs and BBs is phenomenal. While I believe this to be a fair trade-off, it does serve to highlight the fact that the IJN torpedoes are significantly worse, and even worse than the US DD of the same tier in terms of detectability.

If IJN DD torpedo detectability were decreased to be more in line with the US DD line their relative effectiveness would increase. Then it would be a matter of testing to determine where to ultimately set the detectability ranges for all IJN DD torpedoes, at all tiers.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this.

TLDR: I believe the trouble with IJN DDs has to do with their torpedoes being detected at very long ranges. If one believes there is a need, adjusting that is the way to make them more effective, imo.

Respects,

Am

[Super_Splash_Bro]

1 hour ago, skull_122_steel said:

the IJN DDs are not and will never be gun boats the problem with them is the detection range on the torpedoes just lower that and and give them a little less reload time and they should be fine

Agreed, the IJN destroyers are not and never will be gunboats. The best way to play them is spot, cap, hide in smoke and either hit with torpedoes there or from a distance. Their deck guns are not very strong and difficult to fire  accurately from a distant. Good luck!

[Swift_Scythe]

Other than my Fujin and Kamikaze R which yeah i seal club with my 18 point captains and somtimes the Akizuki i just never sail in any of the other DDs. Too much radar hydro planes and similar concealed DDs but they have much better guns.  I used to love POIshiratsuyu but have not had much success since the removal of the smoke for torp reload.  So yes IJNDDs need buffing.

[VTAdmiral]

Performance-wise I guess they do okay in server averages, if one is willing to accept a huge gap between the IJN and the next-lowest ship.

 

But they certainly aren't very fun.

[K1ra_Yoshikage]

The old T8 Fubuki was a nice gunboat till they remove invisifire. You could easy stalk other DD and get your first salvo in if they were busy with other ships. Maybe buff the ROF abit. The only reason they look less fun now is that the IJN used basically the same design and that reflects that there is nothing of improvement after T6 till the Shima.

[Cobraclutch]

@Apokita

Tier 5 - Worst ship Nicholas followed by T-22 

Tier 6  - Worst ship is Gnevy followed by Fububki (Best ship is Shinonome IJN Tier 6 Prem) 

Tier 7-  Worst ship Mahan (by a large margin) and then Minsk

Tier 8  - Worst ship Ognevoi and then Benson 

Tier  9 - Worst ship is Udaloi followed by Kagero 

Tier 10 Worst ship is Gearing followed by Shimakaze 

 

SOLO stats / 2 weeks 

 

This idea that the IJN DD's are the worst DD's in the game needs to stop. Its simply not true. 

 

[VTAdmiral]

2 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

@Apokita

Tier 5 - Worst ship Nicholas followed by T-22 

Tier 6  - Worst ship is Gnevy followed by Fububki (Best ship is Shinonome IJN Tier 6 Prem) 

Tier 7-  Worst ship Mahan (by a large margin) and then Minsk

Tier 8  - Worst ship Ognevoi and then Benson 

Tier  9 - Worst ship is Udaloi followed by Kagero 

Tier 10 Worst ship is Gearing followed by Shimakaze 

 

SOLO stats / 2 weeks 

 

This idea that the IJN DD's are the worst DD's in the game needs to stop. Its simply not true. 

Worst performance, no. Worst feeling, most frustrating, most inconsistent? Now we can have a conversation.

[CLUCH_CARGO]

There is no up with out down

there is no top with out bottom

there is no here with out there

there is no best with out worst

there is no inside with out outside

there is no good with out bad

there is no winner with out loser

Ijn DD's have been in game since the beginning and are most played even when they are nurffed. 

Some DD's are better than others but IJN are still the main go to DD's no matter what tier is played there will always be a IJN DD.

It is someones perspective of IJN are Bad. This is wrong  the IJN DD line is healthy and will alway be a major part of the game.

 

[Harv72b]

Everything about the Japanese DDs is designed around a big alpha strike combined with the disappearing act.  This includes the guns, and specifically the HE rounds; don't be fooled by max damage numbers identical to other DDs at their tier, the IJN destroyer guns are going to hit much harder per salvo than anything other than the Soviets.  Take a look at Fubuki (a "one trick pony") vs. Farragut (a gunboat) at T6: Farragut can literally deliver two times as many shells per minute as Fubuki and maxes out at the same 1800 damage per HE citadel.  But Fubuki's much higher shell velocity and flatter trajectory mean that you're going to land more hits per salvo, and her much better concealment means that you're going to land the first salvo (often the first 2-3) in most engagements.  Properly pre-positioning her guns and choosing the right time to fire, you can easily chunk a Farragut for 1/3 her health before the USN destroyer can properly react.  The increased fire chance (7% base for IJN vs 5% for USN) will also make smoke-firing against battleships more productive.  So the issue with IJN destroyers is not the guns, and it certainly wouldn't be fixed by ditching their extremely powerful HE rounds.

As others have said, a tiny reduction to the spotting range of Japanese torpedoes would make IJN destroyers much less frustrating to play.  Particularly at high tiers, where a significant percentage of your opponents are aware of advanced playing tactics like turning, even a perfectly set-up launch is rarely going to net you more than 1-2 hits from the full torpedo salvo...and that's against a relatively slow-moving battleship.  The low rate of fire & horrid turret traverse on the guns is made up for by the relative ease of connecting with your shells, but in the case of the torpedoes you have the same slow reload compounded by how easily the fish are spotted even  without hydro or aircraft (most IJN torpedoes can literally be seen coming from more than a mile away).  Yes, the potential damage on those torpedoes is tremendous, but potential damage means nothing unless it nets you some actual damage.