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Dreddnort

Is the Nelson this vulnerable?

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I'm reading various posts and I see that the Nelson is an easy citadel hit. I don't have one so I don't know much about captaining it. I see most Nelsons in full reverse and avoiding any side exposure. This tells me that it is very delicate, much like a Pensacola. This appears to be contrary to the actual ship's armor protection, especially around the vital areas (citadel areas). The Nelson class was an all or nothing armor plan, all the critical spots were highly protected, the rest virtually unprotected. Vital spots were protected very well and in some cases better than it's contemporaries. So the ship was certainly not more vulnerable than BB's of it's time, it was at par if not better than most. Even the deck armor was substantial at 6" (continuous) with the additional 4" over the top, on the rear deck area.  The sides were designed to take the steam out of AP shells on the first thinner outer layer before the shell hit the armor plating in the interior, thus making it difficult to penetrate. To me, in the game this ship would only be susceptible to slow bleeding/sinking due to flooding of none/low armored sections. It would be less likely to be "citideled" due to it better than most protection in this area. Just to note, the KGV adopted a very similar armor plan and in the game it fares very well to side/protected area hits, the Nelson should enjoy similar outcomes based on this fact alone. 

Edited by Dreddnort

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Well, I can say that Nelson is a very sturdy ship, but it really does take cits like you wouldn’t believe of you show too much side.  Too much is relative.  Angles that may be fine on other ships aren’t on Nelson.  There are two reasons for this.  1.) Nelson has 25mm of bow armor which can be overmatched by quite a few ships in it’s spread.  This leads to cits through the nose if you just sit bow on.  2.) the citadel is well above the water line and is much easier to hit than the KGV which has an underwater citadel in the game.  Go into port and check the armor models for the two (you don’t have to own them to see armor) and you will see the big differences.

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11 minutes ago, Dreddnort said:

 the KGV adopted a very similar armor plan and in the game it fares very well to side/protected area hits, the Nelson should enjoy similar outcomes based on this fact alone. 

KGV citadel:

0tXQ6FK.jpg

Nelson citadel:

8vHdQXK.jpg

As for bow-tanking Nelsons, they're doing it wrong. They have 25mm of bow armor without extended armor belt to cover part of it, at a tier where all battleships except the KGV class outright ignores 25mm of armor. Bow tanking in a Nelson is asking to get your face pushed in.

 

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55 minutes ago, Dreddnort said:

I see most Nelsons in full reverse and avoiding any side exposure. This tells me that it is very delicate,

I too have seen numerous Nelsons doing the backwards slide maneuver. It usually hasn't ended well for them.

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The Nelson is very vulnerable to broadside and direct bow hits from other battleships, but it's not weak per se.  It has an excellent heal and it *can* bounce shells that hit its armour belt at a reasonable angle.  The main reason that Nelsons play cautiously in the hands of a decent player is that they're not very maneuverable and they're very susceptible to being flanked.  They don't have the speed to dictate the engagement distance against anything other than a same or lower tier US battleship so you don't want to get overextended unless you're certain that you can call on support when needed.

None of this makes it weak, it just means that to maximize its capabilities you need to make sure you don't do anything stupid and play into its weaknesses while maximizing its good guns and strong situational survivability.

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She plays more like USN BBs because she had to angle her citadel box to maximize her protection. Issue is the New Mexico and Colorado have 343mm on all 4 sides so angles at 45degrees to incoming for makes her almost citadel proof, the Nelson has to rely more on baiting shells into her angled belt

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As others have said, the Nelson is a little vulnerable but only if you show off her broadside. Otherwise, slink along an island! If you're having trouble, check out some of the videos on Youtube. She can be a fun ship to play if you learn her tricks!

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Just stay on the move with her and keep changing the firing angles your opponent has to solve (and just chuckle when they hit you with HE that you can heal back in massive chunks!).  The forward turrets make it easier to track targets and she actually has pretty good angles shooting back over her shoulder.

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Hey

I am not a big fan of the RN BB's due to their excessive fire starting especially for BB's; that being said, is the Nelson worth spending the XP to get?  I understand she is quite slow (which I hate) and how is her turret rotation, how about rudder?  I am used to the German BB line, so I prefer a ship that can move out of it's own way and keep guns on target.

 

Pete

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On 2/2/2018 at 1:30 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Musashi entering Tier IX to possibly meet Nelson hasn't made it any easier.  Oh my...

Hey

The Musashi; I'm glad it in game BUT they should have nerf'd the HP pool on her a bit.  I mean it's kind of insane, she gets 97,300 and 18in guns, 26.5 km range.  Everyone else gets:  FDG 84,300 and 20.3km range, Missouri 78,300 23.4 km range, Lion 67,900 20.7 km range, Iowa similar to MO.  To give one ship a 13,000 Hp advantage over 2nd place and 1.5 in ch bigger guns and a 3.1KM range advantage seems a bit excessive to me and it gets worse when you look at Musashi versus Lion (To be fair they do get an outrageous heal that nobody else gets).  Power creep 101.

 

Pete

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Well, the high HP pool is deceptive... if you move into the wrong spot, that 97k HP pool will get focused down to nothing in about 10 seconds. I think the bow and stern are the vulnerable area's if i remember correctly. plus, the accuracy of her guns are average, i'd rather be in a Yamato honestly.

 

Edited by HorrorRoach

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With Nelson you should never EVER be showing Broadside.. also never EVER go directly nose on to other Battleships, use the 3 free swinging turrets to 'wiggle' ... always keeping the bow at about 15 degrees offset to the enemy. Also please PLEASE use her AP rounds, those things are brutal... For me Nelson is hands down the Best overall BB (in its' tier) in the game !

 

 

Edited by cherry2blost

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On 1/29/2018 at 11:14 AM, Dreddnort said:

I'm reading various posts and I see that the Nelson is an easy citadel hit. I don't have one so I don't know much about captaining it. I see most Nelsons in full reverse and avoiding any side exposure. This tells me that it is very delicate, much like a Pensacola. This appears to be contrary to the actual ship's armor protection, especially around the vital areas (citadel areas). The Nelson class was an all or nothing armor plan, all the critical spots were highly protected, the rest virtually unprotected. Vital spots were protected very well and in some cases better than it's contemporaries. So the ship was certainly not more vulnerable than BB's of it's time, it was at par if not better than most. Even the deck armor was substantial at 6" (continuous) with the additional 4" over the top, on the rear deck area.  The sides were designed to take the steam out of AP shells on the first thinner outer layer before the shell hit the armor plating in the interior, thus making it difficult to penetrate. To me, in the game this ship would only be susceptible to slow bleeding/sinking due to flooding of none/low armored sections. It would be less likely to be "citideled" due to it better than most protection in this area. Just to note, the KGV adopted a very similar armor plan and in the game it fares very well to side/protected area hits, the Nelson should enjoy similar outcomes based on this fact alone. 

Nelson has very thick side armor but the problem is that the citadel is behind it, not only that but being tier 7 it means it has a 25mm bow and stern. At tier 7 Nagato and Colorado can overmatch 25mm Bow/stern so yeah superheal and everything you can be deleted if you are not cautious.

In a game i was angling against a Colorado and a few cruisers but another one managed to sneak behind an island and when it came out, my stern was perfectly aligned to his broadside... Quoting the Mighty Jingles: "The best buttsex id surprise buttsex".

Even angling your side armor can sometimes result in citadel damage if you were a bit  to flat against larger caliber (looking at you Nagato!). Agaisnt HE it is easy to pen but you have the superheal to remedy that.

The ship has a very steep learning curve but once you know how he is working you can really dish out damage.

P.S. Dont even bother praying when you see torpedoes coming your way because you will die before saying "In the name of..." :etc_swear:

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On 2/9/2018 at 8:56 PM, cherry2blost said:

With Nelson you should never EVER be showing Broadside.. also never EVER go directly nose on to other Battleships, use the 3 free swinging turrets to 'wiggle' ... always keeping the bow at about 15 degrees offset to the enemy. Also please PLEASE use her AP rounds, those things are brutal... For me Nelson is hands down the Best overall BB (in its' tier) in the game !

 

 

Gneise :cap_viking: and Sharn:fish_viking: would like to have a word with you.

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On 2/26/2018 at 5:54 PM, Bacl said:

Nelson has very thick side armor but the problem is that the citadel is behind it, not only that but being tier 7 it means it has a 25mm bow and stern. At tier 7 Nagato and Colorado can overmatch 25mm Bow/stern so yeah superheal and everything you can be deleted if you are not cautious.

In a game i was angling against a Colorado and a few cruisers but another one managed to sneak behind an island and when it came out, my stern was perfectly aligned to his broadside... Quoting the Mighty Jingles: "The best buttsex id surprise buttsex".

Even angling your side armor can sometimes result in citadel damage if you were a bit  to flat against larger caliber (looking at you Nagato!). Agaisnt HE it is easy to pen but you have the superheal to remedy that.

The ship has a very steep learning curve but once you know how he is working you can really dish out damage.

P.S. Dont even bother praying when you see torpedoes coming your way because you will die before saying "In the name of..." :etc_swear:

All battleships have armor in front of the citadel (the reinforced protection around vital areas of the ship), all battleships have a soft front and back ends, these facts are not the issue. It’s what’s in front of the citadel, plate armor on the sides and top of the hill. The Nelson is well protected, better than the Hood, better than most, yet it is not the case in this game. The Hood should be easy to sink if you AP the boat deck, the combination of poor center structural strength, mediocre deck armor and the huge open area as a target, the Hood should eclipse the Nelson.

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1 minute ago, Dreddnort said:

All battleships have armor in front of the citadel (the reinforced protection around vital areas of the ship), all battleships have a soft front and back ends, these facts are not the issue. It’s what’s in front of the citadel, plate armor on the sides and top of the hill. The Nelson is well protected, better than the Hood, better than most, yet it is not the case in this game. The Hood should be easy to sink if you AP the boat deck, the combination of poor center structural strength, mediocre deck armor and the huge open area as a target, the Hood should eclipse the Nelson.

I do not know the Hood personally and i will have to check its armor layout (stay tuned!) but Nelson is not as tanky as the side armor thickness let appear. It is not defenseless not even by a long shot but it is unforgiving if you make a mistake while AP is loaded on the other side.

Being a german player i learned how to angle my bow to mitigate damage but in the Nelson i found that optimal angle is extremely narrow and unforgiving if yo are engaged with multiple ships.

 

It is still a absolute monster at tier 7 however, fragile if not handled properly but punishing if left alive for too long. I think it is the most balanced British BB in the game but that is just my opinion.

 

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1 hour ago, Bacl said:

I do not know the Hood personally and i will have to check its armor layout (stay tuned!) but Nelson is not as tanky as the side armor thickness let appear. It is not defenseless not even by a long shot but it is unforgiving if you make a mistake while AP is loaded on the other side.

Being a german player i learned how to angle my bow to mitigate damage but in the Nelson i found that optimal angle is extremely narrow and unforgiving if yo are engaged with multiple ships.

 

It is still a absolute monster at tier 7 however, fragile if not handled properly but punishing if left alive for too long. I think it is the most balanced British BB in the game but that is just my opinion.

 

With the Nelson, is it then best to approach a single BB and not tangle with two or more if you can help it? And when you approach that BB keep it at a forward facing angle, as soon as the lower rear main turret is able to shoot forward, then you know you are in the danger zone. I’ve heard people talk about only using the first two turrets exclusively so as not to expose anything the enemy.

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13 minutes ago, Dreddnort said:

With the Nelson, is it then best to approach a single BB and not tangle with two or more if you can help it? And when you approach that BB keep it at a forward facing angle, as soon as the lower rear main turret is able to shoot forward, then you know you are in the danger zone. I’ve heard people talk about only using the first two turrets exclusively so as not to expose anything the enemy.

This is only true if you face BB with 406mm + caliber gunz.

The rule of thump is as follow: Any T7+  IJN and US BB you do now bow tank them because they will citadel you from the front, you have to show a little more side than bow so my                recommendation for the perfect angle is when your third turret is barely able to point on your target.

HE: German secondaries with IFHE will devour you alive and RN BB HE will barely notice that you have armor at all but the redeeming factor against these is your superheal.

All in all, the Nelson is very accurate and has a very rare quality of life feature; you can wiggle from one side to the other without having to wait for one of your turrets to catch up, you always have the maximum firepower at all time. Deciding if you should go nose on or show profile depends on the target you want to focus and remember to keep an eye if your target is not alone. Keep your distance, you have the accuracy to bombard from max range, this will keep you at arm length from cruisers and away from the very dangerous German secondaries but even if you get hit you have your superheal to recover.

DD well if you have HE loaded its pretty much the first to shoot that will win so careful when turning corners around islands...

 

My stats at first with the ship were horrible because i got citadel from every angle, to the point i hated the ship. I gave him another chance and once i figured out how to angle against particular ships, use cover to limit the amount of return fire, knowing the "squishy bits" and overall stop charging in like a moron ( British do not well at Blitzkriegs...) i started to rack up over 100/120k games "faily easily".

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On 1/29/2018 at 11:25 AM, Lert said:

As for bow-tanking Nelsons, they're doing it wrong. They have 25mm of bow armor without extended armor belt to cover part of it, at a tier where all battleships except the KGV class outright ignores 25mm of armor. Bow tanking in a Nelson is asking to get your face pushed in.

 

You forgetting about the Scharnhorst. Her 11in AP rounds are unable to pen 25 mm bows. 

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Just now, Nimitz_1701 said:

You forgetting about the Scharnhorst. Her 11in AP rounds are unable to pen 25 mm bows. 

Right.

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On 1/29/2018 at 8:14 AM, Dreddnort said:

I'm reading various posts and I see that the Nelson is an easy citadel hit. I don't have one so I don't know much about captaining it. I see most Nelsons in full reverse and avoiding any side exposure. This tells me that it is very delicate, much like a Pensacola. This appears to be contrary to the actual ship's armor protection, especially around the vital areas (citadel areas). The Nelson class was an all or nothing armor plan, all the critical spots were highly protected, the rest virtually unprotected. Vital spots were protected very well and in some cases better than it's contemporaries. So the ship was certainly not more vulnerable than BB's of it's time, it was at par if not better than most. Even the deck armor was substantial at 6" (continuous) with the additional 4" over the top, on the rear deck area.  The sides were designed to take the steam out of AP shells on the first thinner outer layer before the shell hit the armor plating in the interior, thus making it difficult to penetrate. To me, in the game this ship would only be susceptible to slow bleeding/sinking due to flooding of none/low armored sections. It would be less likely to be "citideled" due to it better than most protection in this area. Just to note, the KGV adopted a very similar armor plan and in the game it fares very well to side/protected area hits, the Nelson should enjoy similar outcomes based on this fact alone. 

Hey man, in real life everything you said should probably hold up. The game mechanics being what they are, combined with the Tier 7 meta, mean she eats citadels. I'd like to see "all or nothing" armor be superior in-game to the Pre-Jutland "Dreadnought style" extended belts and multiple layers, but that just isn't how they built the game.

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Isnt the nelson the highest performing tier 7 ship by a ridiculous margin? Im pretty sure its fine.

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On 2/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Bacl said:

I do not know the Hood personally and i will have to check its armor layout (stay tuned!) but Nelson is not as tanky as the side armor thickness let appear. It is not defenseless not even by a long shot but it is unforgiving if you make a mistake while AP is loaded on the other side.

Being a german player i learned how to angle my bow to mitigate damage but in the Nelson i found that optimal angle is extremely narrow and unforgiving if yo are engaged with multiple ships.

 

It is still a absolute monster at tier 7 however, fragile if not handled properly but punishing if left alive for too long. I think it is the most balanced British BB in the game but that is just my opinion.

 

As most know the Hood was a BC not really a BB. However her design was originally a bb then lost a lot of armour to keep up with commerce raiding cruisers but the idea was she could out run and out manouvor bbs while trading salvos. She was actually way overdue for a refit where the Brits were going to turn her into a BB with thicker armor and better AA. However operational requirements kept her deployed. Considered the most powerful ship at launch and the British public thought she still was when she deployed to sink the Bismarck. Sadly her deck armour badly in need of a refit took an early salvo from Bis and the mighty Hood pride of the British fleet was gone. I always wonder what she could have been if she under went refit but the day of the bbs was quickly passing 

 

in game Hood actually fits my play style. I play her as a hydrid US CA/Russian DD. I use island cover and ambush ca/l and bbs or I use her speed to stay wide and close on a distracted target. Her guns hit hard and are acurate but he can’t take a beating 

Edited by wstugamd

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On 3/9/2018 at 9:24 AM, wstugamd said:

As most know the Hood was a BC not really a BB. However her design was originally a bb then lost a lot of armour to keep up with commerce raiding cruisers but the idea was she could out run and out manouvor bbs while trading salvos. She was actually way overdue for a refit where the Brits were going to turn her into a BB with thicker armor and better AA. However operational requirements kept her deployed. Considered the most powerful ship at launch and the British public thought she still was when she deployed to sink the Bismarck. Sadly her deck armour badly in need of a refit took an early salvo from Bis and the mighty Hood pride of the British fleet was gone. I always wonder what she could have been if she under went refit but the day of the bbs was quickly passing 

 

in game Hood actually fits my play style. I play her as a hydrid US CA/Russian DD. I use island cover and ambush ca/l and bbs or I use her speed to stay wide and close on a distracted target. Her guns hit hard and are acurate but he can’t take a beating 

The Hood had a critical issue with its structure. With its main guns positioned at the far ends of a long hull (designed for straight-away speed) the center beams were under enormous strain. They noticed this deep into it’s construction and made adjustment to it’s horizontal and vertical armor plates at the mid-section, making them structural armor plates, to help alleviate the stress. The Admiralty was very concerned with this during its service (part of the reasoning for it being an only ship of its class). This structure problem was also a factor in putting off a full refit which would have required a complete rework of it’s main beam work (assuming the burdens of an engine, armor, superstructure, AA and secondary gun updates that were planned). The cost was estimated as too high to justify any significant update. It was also convenient that the Royal Navy found itself having to keep the Hood in service as newest BBs were being built.

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