Carrier Balance Discussion. It’s not the Ships...

[NoZoupForYou]

This is hotbutton. I know.  I decided to talk about the exclusion of CVs from clans, the ships themselves and the problems players face.  This is meant to provoke discussion to find solutions to fix carriers... if they even can be fixed at this point.

 

[RipNuN2]

Well kudos for tackling the CV nexus, this thread should be interesting . . .

 

[Akeno017]

This is why I have suggested multiple times that carriers be scaled differently.

So you would have more carriers per team, but each one has less effect. So carrier gameplay would remain the same, but the increased number of players per team would saturate skill difference more.

[jason199506]

lets first fix lex against shokaku/essex agasint taiho balancing......

[anonym_BTh9TT5P7Ko4]

CV's can be hilariously OP in the hands of a skilled player or be an instant loss in the hands of a potato.

Throw in the lack of balancing of individual CV's (i.e: Enterprise AP bombs, Saipan Air Superiority load) and that sums up the problem with them.

 

[PelicanHazard]

Part of the problem, as I see it, is the very way AA functions. It scales up on ships as you go up tiers, but the planes are fixed, and this causes issues trying to balance. E.g., Hiryuu will massacre any Tier 5 she meets with few exceptions, even if the Tier 5s ball up, but will be rendered near-impotent by a slew of solo Tier 9s with strong AA.

Unless WG is willing to overhaul AA, I'm wondering if CVs need some extra MM rule to make the planes easier to balance. For example, imagine if CVs were never uptiered. Hiryuu would only see Tiers 5-7, Bogue wouldn't have to try to strike a Cleveland, Lexington wouldn't have to face an AA Minotaur, etc etc. It removes some of the variables in trying to balance planes by restricting the range of AA the planes face instead of the much broader current range, especially once AA skills come into play; the Tier 8 carriers see a range of AA from whatever sailor got 'curse at the sky' duty on Aoba to a full AA spec Mino/Des Memes.

[Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi]

45 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

This is hotbutton. I know.  I decided to talk about the exclusion of CVs from clans, the ships themselves and the problems players face.  This is meant to provoke discussion to find solutions to fix carriers... if they even can be fixed at this point.

A Great video as usual Zoup. I agree with you Zuop the skill gap is the main problem with CVs, however I believe that the way CVs play is part of the issue. CV gameplay is far different from other gameplay. I believe that the main issue is just the special attack capabilities. If a CV captain masters strafes it doesn't matter how many fighters you have you will be annihilated, especially if the enemy CV outnumbers you in fighter squadrons as all they do is lock your fighters with one squad and then strafes your locked fighter squadron, and the retreat mechanic does not help as you still lose fighter (except the Saipan). The manual drops with strike aircraft I can deal with but the strafe mechanics are just too overpowered if you are against a player that knows how to use them. And i agree with you Zoup the largest problem with CVs is that the gameplay is too different and the population is too small to really figure out how to balance them.

[Anumati]

Spoken like someone who has no real competitive experience or knows how carriers function in competitive. Flamu ripped you a new one on reddit before he was censored for a reason. You have no ground to stand on when it comes to talking about balance. You are a hypocrite and have no idea what you are talking about.

[HorrorRoach]

I think they need to double down on CVs, and have one bot CV for every random battle team regardless of tier(if there arent humans in que). Obviously you wouldn't match a human vs a bot. though

[Crucis]

9 hours ago, jason199506 said:

lets first fix lex against shokaku/essex agasint taiho balancing......

While there are certainly some individual carrier issues, the real problem is in the overall mechanics of CV play.  CV's are just too damned complex for the average player to do reasonably well in.  They demand far too much multitasking for the average player to manage.

CV's as a whole need to be dumbed down, their mechanics made simpler and less multitasking intensive.

 

EDIT:  I see all the downvotes from the unicum CV mains.  Wonderful.  People whose opinions I don't give a bleep about.

 

[Crucis]

6 minutes ago, Anumati said:

Spoken like someone who has no real competitive experience or knows how carriers function in competitive. Flamu ripped you a new one on reddit before he was censored for a reason. You have no ground to stand on when it comes to talking about balance. You are a hypocrite and have no idea what you are talking about.

Before you rip someone, why don't you quote the "offending" person's post so that everyone else knows who you're ripping.

And while you're at it, you can lose the classless, snotty elitist attitude.

 

[Czevak]

2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Before you rip someone, why don't you quote the "offending" person's post so that everyone else knows who you're ripping.

And while you're at it, you can lose the classless, snotty elitist attitude.

 

Hi Mr. Mall Cop! How's your day? What..? I didn't steal anything I swear.. why are you taking out your baton?

[Anumati]

1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Before you rip someone, why don't you quote the "offending" person's post so that everyone else knows who you're ripping.

And while you're at it, you can lose the classless, snotty elitist attitude.

 

Absolutely not. I don't have to quote the OP of the thread if I dont quote anyone else. Its obvious that I'm replying to the OP, its called the reply button. I have waited patiently for 2+ years for a CV rework. And Zoup who can't even put in the time of day to at least play CVs is trying to tell me a CV main who plays competitive that I shouldn't be allowed to play because hypocrites like himself? Classless? Hush.

[Czevak]

>It's the players, not the ships.

 

Uhh, it's totally WG not listening to the level-headed and instead listening to the BB mains that rage at being deleted because they got cross-dropped and didn't try to dodge.

It's also the fact that WG has made so many bad balancing decisions, they don't even listen to their STs half the time, what's even the point of the program if it hardly produces results aside from getting test versions on different computers?

[Crucis]

5 minutes ago, Anumati said:

Absolutely not. I don't have to quote the OP of the thread if I dont quote anyone else. Its obvious that I'm replying to the OP, its called the reply button. I have waited patiently for 2+ years for a CV rework. And Zoup who can't even put in the time of day to at least play CVs is trying to tell me a CV main who plays competitive that I shouldn't be allowed to play because hypocrites like himself? Classless? Hush.

 

In point of fact, it is NOT obvious who you're replying to.  That's why you use either the quote link, or even simpler, just start your post with the name of the person you're replying to.  Stop excusing your laziness, dweeb.

And yes, classless!!!

[cometguy]

There are a variety of issues with carriers, but a big one is how willfully ignorant the majority of people wish to remain when it comes to combating them. Is a unicum CV hard to deal with? Ya. But a unicum CV player is incredibly rare. I mean, we're talking about the top 1% of players in a ship type that usually won't appear at all, or will at most appear twice on each team. Most players royally screw the pooch against average CV players, because they don't know what to do, and apparently don't want to learn.

People need to play CV, so they understand what makes playing CV easy, and what makes playing CV hard. Instead, CV remains so underplayed that to most people, CV play is indistinguishable from magic.

[Anumati]

Just now, Crucis said:

 

In point of fact, it is NOT obvious who you're replying to.  That's why you use either the quote link, or even simpler, just start your post with the name of the person you're replying to.  Stop excusing your laziness, dweeb.

And yes, classless!!!

No thanks. Zoup is in the wrong here. (Again)

[Dasha_Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Anumati said:

Absolutely not. I don't have to quote the OP of the thread if I dont quote anyone else. Its obvious that I'm replying to the OP, its called the reply button. I have waited patiently for 2+ years for a CV rework. And Zoup who can't even put in the time of day to at least play CVs is trying to tell me a CV main who plays competitive that I shouldn't be allowed to play because hypocrites like himself? Classless? Hush.

I think I know where you are going with this, but maybe you could write down something so we can discuss it.

Ol' Zoup's got some broad shoulders, but without specific criticisms,  he doesn't, (WE as a forum) don't have the chance to debate this intelligently.

[Crucis]

5 minutes ago, Zakuul said:

>It's the players, not the ships.

 

Uhh, it's totally WG not listening to the level-headed and instead listening to the BB mains that rage at being deleted because they got cross-dropped and didn't try to dodge.

It's also the fact that WG has made so many bad balancing decisions, they don't even listen to their STs half the time, what's even the point of the program if it hardly produces results aside from getting test versions on different computers?

I'm no "main", BB or otherwise.  But seriously, if a ship other than perhaps a DD gets cross dropped, you're ripping on them for being angry and not trying to dodge when the chances of their dodging doing a bloody thing are slim and none.  And Slim left town a year ago.  I've never seen any ship other than a DD ever successfully dodge a proper cross drop.  A DD can in theory do it, if he's paying attention ahead of time to be ready to make the hard turns at the precisely right moments.  But any other ship type doesn't have a prayer.  And you're ripping them for not making what would be a pointless effort?  Mind you, I suppose it depends on the situation, i.e. how many HP your BB has and if there's a prayer of maneuvering enough to reduce the number of hits to stay alive.  But the reality is that for many players, they're just too pissed off to give a flying you-know-what.  And I don't blame them. much

 

[NoZoupForYou]

21 minutes ago, Anumati said:

Spoken like someone who has no real competitive experience or knows how carriers function in competitive. Flamu ripped you a new one on reddit before he was censored for a reason. You have no ground to stand on when it comes to talking about balance. You are a hypocrite and have no idea what you are talking about.

How am I a hypocrite?  Did you listen to what I had to say?  Probably not. One need not have to play carriers to understand their importance in the game and how powerful they are in the hands of a good player.  And I also understand how hard it is for someone trying to play carriers to get started.  Being one of those players myself.

So instead often  ad hominem attack, why don’t you try and refute what I’ve said in the video.

[Crucis]

7 minutes ago, Anumati said:

No thanks. Zoup is in the wrong here. (Again)

At least I got you to ID who you were talking about in your first anonymous reply.

[Carrier_Lexington]

1 hour ago, NoZoupForYou said:

This is hotbutton. I know.  I decided to talk about the exclusion of CVs from clans, the ships themselves and the problems players face.  This is meant to provoke discussion to find solutions to fix carriers... if they even can be fixed at this point.

 To be fair, if I come across aAkula in a 1v1, I'm probably going to die, too. 

The "problem with carriers" is that Wargaming has decided to limit all this control to one ship. If you only were allowed one Radar Cruiser a team, then people would get mad that there was a skill gap in Radar Cruisers. Same with Destroyers or Battleships.

Also, a CV isn't the only thing that can counter a CV. It is the easiest thing with which to do so, but it is not the only resort. Des Moines and Minotaur are very good at dealing with planes, put them together in a 7v7, and you've got an exclusion zone which also has significant anti-surface power, as well as the ability to fire from smoke with Radar and Hydro. And all without the risk of permanently losing your primary armament every time you attack.
 

[Snargfargle]

The huge disparity in the skill required for manual strafes and drops, plus the advantage of the USN Premium carriers, is why I just play low-tier carriers. For me, it's fun playing carriers at level IV with the Hosho. Not so much with the Ranger or Lexington. I do like those low-tier dual-carrier games when I'm in my Cleveland though. Unfortunately that will all go away with the cruiser line split.

[Crucis]

2 minutes ago, Carrier_Lexington said:

 To be fair, if I come across aAkula in a 1v1, I'm probably going to die, too. 

The "problem with carriers" is that Wargaming has decided to limit all this control to one ship. If you only were allowed one Radar Cruiser a team, then people would get mad that there was a skill gap in Radar Cruisers. Same with Destroyers.

You're wrong.  Because the reality is that whether they have radar or not, a radar cruiser is still just a ship with guns.  Sure, he can hide behind islands and abuse the physics.  But in the end, it's just a ship with guns.  And guns are vastly easier to use than carriers and their squadrons.

[NoZoupForYou]

13 minutes ago, Zakuul said:

>It's the players, not the ships.

 

Uhh, it's totally WG not listening to the level-headed and instead listening to the BB mains that rage at being deleted because they got cross-dropped and didn't try to dodge.

It's also the fact that WG has made so many bad balancing decisions, they don't even listen to their STs half the time, what's even the point of the program if it hardly produces results aside from getting test versions on different computers?

So that would be the players then, correct?

But seriously, there are balance issues between carriers. But the skill gap between players makes a larger difference.