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BullpupWOT

Anyone mesh well with the German cruiser line?

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Thanks for contributing constructively to an interesting conversation. Ultimately, if a player is going up the German Cruiser line, your ultimate goal is Hipper, Roon and Hindenburg. If these ships fit your style of play, players will be please the did the grind up this line. Good luck!

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Skipped the Karlsruhe entirely...the K-Berg was worth every point of FEXP spent. Spam AP on everything and the occasional HE to start fires...more of the same on N-berg, but I ground it through before the 360 rear turret patch.

The Yorck was okay...AP is mostly crap so just spam HE.

I run the German sonar all the way through T5-7. Wouldn't go up German tree if not for the German sonar to go "DIE DD DIE" on smokes.

 

The Hipper is where things start to go south...at the top of the world with too little of almost everything except for German sonar...I keep my Hipper captain on Spee for the time being as I meditate on going onwards...

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1 minute ago, pyantoryng said:

Skipped the Karlsruhe entirely...the K-Berg was worth every point of FEXP spent. Spam AP on everything and the occasional HE to start fires...more of the same on N-berg, but I ground it through before the 360 rear turret patch.

The Yorck was okay...AP is mostly crap so just spam HE.

I run the German sonar all the way through T5-7. Wouldn't go up German tree if not for the German sonar to go "DIE DD DIE" on smokes.

 

The Hipper is where things start to go south...at the top of the world with too little of almost everything except for German sonar...I keep my Hipper captain on Spee for the time being as I meditate on going onwards...

AP is not crap under 10km. In fact it's some of the hardest hitting 8 inch fire around. Just past that, yeah the AP falls way off.

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The best thing about the tier 5 and 6 ships is the 1/4 pen HE. You will deal consistent damage to everything you see as you can penetrate 37mm of armor. The AP is also quite good, although as you are a light cruiser don't expect to get through tier 6 or higher cruisers for heavy damage unless they are nearly broadside. You ricochet off anything thicker than 10mm. You also outrange the USN cruisers, which are your biggest non-BB threat as their AP has better ricochet angles *for the 203mm guns) and their HE hits harder than yours does (all calibers). 

Basically, your Konigsburg/Nurnburg can penetrate 25mm without IFHE, critical for lower-level captains. You can also spend the points on something else (AFT for AA, Concealment if you don't have it) and deal damage from ranges and at angles where a similar light cruiser will have trouble. 

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I really enjoyed the tiers 5 and 6. This was the second line I went down, and despite my inexperience allowed me to do well enough. I struggled through tiers 7 and 8, eventually moving my Hipper captain to my Scharnhorst. I still play the Roon from time to time (plays like a big Nurnburg), and the Hindenburg is probably the most balanced of all the tier 10 cruisers (in a good way). I got it just in time for Clan Battles, returned my Bismarck's 19 point captain, and it served me well.

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4 minutes ago, IronWolfV said:

AP is not crap under 10km. In fact it's some of the hardest hitting 8 inch fire around. Just past that, yeah the AP falls way off.

Hipper AP is quite effective at any range if you have a broadside target - it has the same ricochet angles as anything else (45 to 60 degrees). You just have a smaller margin of error for horizontal angling as your shell's fall angle increases the effective impact angle against the upper belt and superstructure. At ~45 degrees, you are likely hitting closer to 55 or 60 degrees at long range.

The pen is not a problem, as most ships are "all or nothing." Only German BBs have upper belts which will stop anything save for a ricochet, and even USN superheavy AP won't get through main belts at ranges greater than 5-8km depending on the BB. 

Cruiser belts might stop your AP at extreme range, but you rarely get reliable broadside cruiser hits that far out anyways due to the smaller target and ability to dodge volleys. 

The only weakness the Hipper has is the HE damage - against angled targets you just won't deal as much due to the lower alpha strike and fire chance. The 1/4 pen helps, but the Yorck does better at ranges above ~10km, even against the same ships. 

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Just now, BullpupWOT said:

Excuse my ignorance everyone...what do you guys mean by "1/4 pen" on the HE?

Normal HE shells penetrate armor equal to 1/6 of their caliber (rounded) minus 1 mm. They need to BEAT the thickness to deal damage. Normal 152mm HE penetrates 24mm of armor (152/6 rounded - 1), meaning that any plate of 25mm or more will shatter the shell. With IFHE, this increases by 30%, to 32.93mm. This rounds to 33mm, minus 1 = 32mm - the same thickness of most higher tier BB bow and deck armor. Basically, with IFHE you can JUST BARELY penetrate these, and your HE shells deal damage instead of shattering. 

German and British HE shells are better, penetrating armor equal to 1/4 of their caliber. Your 150mm HE therefore starts with 37.5mm, which rounds to 38mm. Therefore, it takes a 38mm plate to shatter your HE shells instead of 25mm. The Tier 7 and higher can penetrate 50mm plates, which shatter even IFHE-upgraded shells from other nations. (British do not get 203mm HE on any ships yet).

Basically, you can deal damage to larger portions of higher-tier ships, making your guns more effective despite their lower base HE damage. 

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I have all tier 6 up German Crusiers line, the recent buff to HIndy's AP and IF/HE shells is extremely effective, mainly the AP, full salvo on all BB's at 10 full broadside on these ships and they are gone in 3 salvo's of volley at 925ms hit them in the citadel, and most of the shot's from the IF/HE will destroy most Moskva's and Me-Tar's.

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7 minutes ago, Sere_Pj said:

I have all tier 6 up German Crusiers line, the recent buff to HIndy's AP and IF/HE shells is extremely effective, mainly the AP, full salvo on all BB's at 10 full broadside on these ships and they are gone in 3 salvo's of volley at 925ms hit them in the citadel, and most of the shot's from the IF/HE will destroy most Moskva's and Me-Tar's.

 

IFHE doesn't really do anything for 8 inch shells, you're better off using those 4 points into concealment or anything to buff rof.

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only t10  Cruiser that can benefit from IFHE is  HIV.    With IFHE,  it gets over 50mm HE pen, which is nice to have.        IFHE is primarily for 152 or smaller caliber.      UK and German 1/4 pen does not require IFHE .   (few UK BB can get some chance to cit  cruiser main belt though)

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I couldn't get along with most of the German CA line, and FXP'd T6-8 (I already had the Eugen, so Hipper had no interest for me). Hipper/Eugen isn't a bad ship, but they badly need a heal to compete with the other ships at their tier and to make up for their low DPM. I will say that if you get the hang of Hipper/Eugen, you'll be in a great place for Hindy, as she's basically a Eugen on all the steroids. Roon was pretty meh for me, personally - she has a lot of things to like, but in many ways she's a throwback to the earlier ships in the tree, with a playstyle that prioritizes stern-kiting (something I'm not really a fan of). But when I got to Hindy... sweet frosted Donitz, she's a monster. I got her permacamo pretty quickly (something I've only ever done for one other ship), she was that good. Build for stealth and DPM, and prepare to wreck face right and left. She can push and kite at will in way that Roon can't, making her a threat in pretty much any situation.

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2 hours ago, MaxL_1023 said:

The best thing about the tier 5 and 6 ships is the 1/4 pen HE. 

The 1/4 pen only starts at Tier 6 IIRC.

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7 hours ago, Skpstr said:

Loved the line starting at Tier 5. Karlsruhe (and it's been buffed since I was there) is the only ship in all of WoWS that I skipped.

 

Thats was my first and emerald was the only other deliberate skip, (i've skipped a few via new years missions but emerald was the only one i aimed to do it with specifically to skip a ship).

 

Statistically T6-8 are meh to awful by average performance but T5, 9 and 10 where ok last i looked.

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12 minutes ago, yashma said:

The 1/4 pen only starts at Tier 6 IIRC.

 

Nope Konigsberg has it too. So does the T4. T1-3 don't. probably because AFAIK they share  shell with the DD's. KM BB Secondaries are the same, anything but the 105's is 1/4 pen, the 105's are 1/6.

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I didn't love the Karlsruhe when I first got it but then started enjoying it a lot after watching Flamu's Youtube reviews.  I started playing it in the style he recommended and enjoyed it much better. Had decent success with it.

I just got the Konigsberg and am enjoying it as well. Different play style but fun. 

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The Konigsburg and Nurnburg shoot the same shells. The Karlshrue may not get 1/4 pen HE as it uses a different shell, but testing is needed as WG is not clear on these things. 

 

Edit: I checked the original patch notes (0.6.6) - tier 4 and above get the 1/4 pen. 

Edited by MaxL_1023

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9 hours ago, BullpupWOT said:

I picked up the Karlsruhe over the weekend. I like to grind at least one or two upgrades in PvE before taking a ship into PvP. 

I'm wondering if the German cruiser line continues along this meta...boy, when I first tried to make a hard rudder turn it sure felt like a BB. 

I'm thinking this ship/line might have a required skill set that I don't have as it doesn't seem to have enough armor/HP to tank damage but also lacks the maneuverability I seem to like in my playstyle. 

Is the rest of the line more of the same?  Should I just grind this one out in PvE? Should I just forget about this line if it doesn't fit the style of play I'm developing or should I embrace learning different styles the hard way?

Karlsruhe is awful. Don't use that to judge the line. It gets better with every ship after that one. 

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59 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Karlsruhe is awful. Don't use that to judge the line. It gets better with every ship after that one. 

For some odd reason I remember doing ok on Karlsure, think I am still on tier V or VI in that line though since had started it back when I was new to the game and was having a lot of trouble adapting to CA play because it was so much of an in between to DD and BB play, but after I got more comfortable with CA play I went with USN and espevially IJN which had CAs that were heavy Cruisers tier V+

Considerng starting up the German CAs since with some of the new Emblems requiring CV play to obtain it feels like CVs are now more common and makes the idea of a good AA CA like Hipper a more viable idea, although may wait until the USN CA split to see if something better comes along.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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2 hours ago, Carl said:

 

Thats was my first and emerald was the only other deliberate skip, (i've skipped a few via new years missions but emerald was the only one i aimed to do it with specifically to skip a ship).

 

Statistically T6-8 are meh to awful by average performance but T5, 9 and 10 where ok last i looked.

I found the Nurnberg pretty meh, (but not horrible) and enjoyed Yorck and Hipper, as well as T5, 9, and 10.

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I just picked up Roon Friday since it was on sale. Oh boy is that thing a joy to play! Take everything you should have learned from the rest of the line and apply it to Roon, reap the rewards. One of the best things about German cruisers is their range. They're not lacking in that department(though at T9 17.5km can sometimes feel not quite far enough to hit targets), and if they feel so, which would only happen at T9 and T10, then they get a spotter plane at those tiers to compensate. Because of the great range I went with the recommended module for reload rate on Roon, and holy moly is the 8.8 second reload on the upgraded guns glorious!

I call my Roon, Nuernberg++. :Smile_teethhappy: Mostly because it looks like a Nuernberg upscaled(and on steroids) and armed with 203mm guns instead of 6" guns. Hindenburg is going to be my first T10, and I love how it looks like an Uber Eugen.

10 hours ago, Lillehuntrix said:

For whatever reason, I'm a contrary indicator on German cruisers.  I liked the Nurnberg much more than the Konigsberg - maybe I just finally understood the ship at that stage (since they're so similar), but the slight velocity buff the Nurnberg enjoys made a lot of difference for me as well.  Liked the Yorck, liked the Hipper...can't seem to make the Roon work well.

But we all agree that the Karlsruhe is crap - one of the worst experiences of my early WoWS journey and thus one of my worst ships overall (that would be 32% WR and 12k damage for those of you scoring at home).  The good news is that it is tier 4 crap, whereas it seems that a lot of lines have particularly weak ships at tier 5, where you are also uptiered all the time (Emerald, Jianwei...even Omaha to some extent, I'm looking at you).

I'm much the same way. I enjoyed Nuernberg much more than Koenigsberg. Why? I'm not entirely sure. It probably had a part to do with the Koenigsberg grind not taking very long, another part had to do with the aesthetics. I just like the look of the centerline turrets over the offset turrets on Koenigsberg. For some reason, Nuernberg just felt more capable to me, despite their extremely similar design and playstyle.

I love how Roon emulates Nuernbergs playstyle, just with better armor and better guns. It's hella fun, and Nuernberg++ has earned a permanent spot in my port.

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12 hours ago, Saidalphon said:

As someone who has already grinded all the way up to the Hindy i have to agree, the Karslruhe was not fun.

Great post overall on how the ships feel.  At Roon,  but haven't been playing it for a while.

 

The Karlsruhe was the first time I completely skipped a line,  even though it was tier 4.   Generally I would just grind through it,  but the comments at release really swayed me to skip.   I vaguely remember seeing posts about the patch she was buffed with later on.   And people said she isn't terrible now,  but she still ain't good either.

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I have grinded up to the hipper and the only ships I haven't liked are the tier III and IV the rest have there place the Konigsberg and Nuremberg play pretty much they same way, close to medium range gun fights, stick close to islands in the Yorch and forget about your AP the HE is all you will ever need, and the hipper is like a combination of the three, close to mid range gun fights with big guns and with a 27 mm bow you can rush all the BBs with 15in and smaller guns and stand a reasonable chance of getting you torpedos of

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