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Desmios

A Lesson In Premiums

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Hello all, 

I just read a thread where several people said that it is okay the Enterprise is better than the Lexington because the Enterprise is a premium ship that must be bought with real money.

That is not okay and that is not how premium ships or warplanes or tanks for that matter were ever supposed to be designed. 

A premium vehicle is supposed to be better than its stock techtree counterpart but not as good as it's fully upgraded Tech Tree counterpart. 

I have been around since wargaming was nothing more than eight guys in a shady basement in Russia; and this is always publicly been their philosophy. 

And the philosophy makes perfect sense as it keeps in line with wargaming pay for convenience model while not pushing the edges of pay for advantage or pay to win. 

Let me repeat that for some of the weeaboos on this forum who have spent several grand and think "freeloaders owe them for keeping the servers on" __ a premium warship should always be better than its Tech Tree stock counterpart and always worse than a fully upgraded Tech Tree counter part. 

The purpose of Premium vehicles is primarily extra credit income and crew training.  It is not good for a game when overpowered vehicles are locked behind a pay wall. 

I've also heard several people compare their Tech Tree counterparts and describe them as "free".  They are not free; many take many hours to acquire.

Wargaming has recently deviated from this model with releases such as the saipan, enterprise, Chrysler gf, patriot, defender, skorp g, etc. 

This is something to be condemned, not rationalized - it is not good for the long term health of the game. 

Tldr: fully upgraded > premium > stock ||| (premium > fully upgraded) = nonono

 

Edited by Desmios
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premium ships SHOULD be better than fully upgraded tech tree counterpart.

Why?

1. tech tree ships are free.

2. premiums ships cost real money.

When I paid my money, it SHOULD be better!

For example:

1. missouri > iowa

2. musashi > izumo

TLDR: premium > fully upgraded > stock = yes yes yes

Edited by Kaa1el
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Premiums ships should be competitive balancewise.

But that doest mean that other ships shouldn't be, and a good balance between all ships should be looked for.

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4 minutes ago, Desmios said:

Hello all, 

I just to read a thread where several people said that it is okay the Enterprise is better than the Lexington because the Enterprise is a premium ship that must be bought with real money.

That is not okay and that is not how premium ships or warplanes or tanks for that matter were ever supposed to be designed. 

A premium vehicle is supposed to be better than its stock techtree counterpart but not as good as it's fully upgraded Tech Tree counterpart. 

I have been around since wargaming was nothing more than eight guys in a shady basement in Russia; and this is always publicly been their philosophy. 

And the philosophy makes perfect sense as it keeps in line with wargaming pay for convenience model while not pushing the edges of pay for advantage or pay to win. 

Let me repeat that for some of the weeaboos on this forum who have spent several grand and think "freeloaders owe them for keeping the servers on" __ a premium warship should always be better than its Tech Tree stock counterpart and always worse than a fully upgraded Tech Tree counter part. 

The purpose of Premium vehicles is primarily extra credit income and crew training.  It is not good for a game when overpowered vehicles are locked behind a pay wall. 

I've also heard several people compare their Tech Tree counterparts and describe them as "free".  They are not free; many take many hours to acquire.

Wargaming has recently deviated from this model with releases such as the saipan, enterprise, Chrysler gf, patriot, defender, skorp g, etc. 

This is something to be condemned, not rationalized - it is not good for the long term health of the game. 

Tldr: fully upgraded > premium > stock ||| (premium > fully upgraded) = nonono

 

 

Well, this isn't WoT or WoWP. I like how premiums are in WOWs. Some are good ships, some are about the same as their tech tree counterparts with slight differences, others are worse. The ones that went too far have been removed, so you got your wish.

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13 minutes ago, Desmios said:

Tldr: fully upgraded > premium > stock ||| (premium > fully upgraded) = nonono

I agree.

 

 

But clearly WG doesn't.

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21 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

The ones that went too far have been removed

I think the whole idea of the OP is that there are still a few that haven't been removed...Enterprise, Saipan, & a list of code names (Chrysler gf, patriot, defender, skorp g,) I am not familiar with.

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Well, when you get into CVs, their whole system is messed up. Something needs to be done to fix it, but I'm don't know enough about CVs to know what that would be.

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/signed

not that it will have much affect (OP, I suspect some of the replies to the other thread, were trolling, to taken wih a pinch of salt). But 100% agreement from myself, the expectation, nay demand, that premium ships be equal or better than their tech tree peers, is unhealthy for the game. We have seen this expectation at work, wilfully encouraged by some portions/departments of WG itself, contributing to the Saipan, Enterprise effect, but also in setting the bar of expectation crazily high, that it contributed (but was not the sole cause) to the Graf Zeppelin meltdown, and most recently, is a strong undercurrent of self entitled complaint about new premium destroyers and battleships (see Aigle/Cossack/Roma).

(I too have followed WG projects since the early days of WOT, though maybe not quite as early as yourself)

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A premium ship should be balanced to be competitive with other fully upgraded ships at their tier. This idea that premium vehicles should be worse than their fully upgraded counterparts has loooooong ago disappeared. And thank god for that.

Mind you, this idea that they are entitled to a better ship because they spent money is hogwash too.

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You obviously came from WOT. It works a bit different here in WOWS for premiums. Just because it is one way in one title does not mean it is the same for all titles. Please don't try to dictate to WG how it is "supposed" to be.

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Lets hope WG can keep premium ships better than their stock researchable equivalent, but worser than the latter when its fully upgraded and so far...

WG hasn't really followed that idea in regards to most of the recently released prem ships besides a few.

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2 hours ago, Kaa1el said:

premium ships SHOULD be better than fully upgraded tech tree counterpart.

Why?

1. tech tree ships are free.

2. premiums ships cost real money.

When I paid my money, it SHOULD be better!

For example:

1. missouri > iowa

2. musashi > izumo

TLDR: premium > fully upgraded > stock = yes yes yes

And this, my Little troll, is how you get pay to win into a game.

Premiums offer faster captain retraining, better XP for when you want to convert XP, better credit income and a different playstyle then comparable ships from the tree (note how i said different, not plain better).

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While I agree with that, I can also understand WG trying to make a ship with unique playstyle. The thing is to find a balance between unique and broken. I'll take Graf Spee and Belfast as example:

 

Graf Spee is unique because of her 283mm guns. It's a paper cruiser with small BB guns. The ship is is better than a stock Nurnberg but I also find her better than the fully upgraded Nurnberg. Now does that make this ship broken ? No. 

 

Belfast is unique (according to WG) because she has radar instead of heal. Well if we look at the RN line yeah it's indeed unique because first she has HE but she also has no heal. But this ship can carry both radar and smoke which is already a broken gimmick and for some reason, WG decided to give them Concealment module which can be aquired at T8.  Belfast is indeed unique but at the same time she's totally broken compared to Fiji and other same tier cruiser. 

 

The way WG is developping premium already tells you that at some point, some future ship will going to be totally broken or non competitive and unfun to play. Taking a consumable from a class and give it to another and call it "gimmick". Someday they will run out of idea and they will start releasing not premium but broken line ( Guess who's BB nation will get radar ?) And WG won't change their politics because even if thousand of people complain about this OP ship, thousand other people will buy this ship. I mean look at Saipan, Kaga and Belfast. A lot of people said these ship are broken but at the same time you see a lot of them in ranked and random.

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35 minutes ago, Fodder4U said:

You obviously came from WOT. It works a bit different here in WOWS for premiums. Just because it is one way in one title does not mean it is the same for all titles. Please don't try to dictate to WG how it is "supposed" to be.

An opinion is hardly dictatorship, unless you cannot bear differing views, hold on..who is dictating to who, right now? (other than this, your own opinion on this matter, as a ST, worries me.)

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A Premium Ship should be a worthwhile buy.

 

Why should it be an inferior product?  What's the point of me spending money on a POS ship like Krispy Kreme?  Why should I spend money on a ship where I can have one for free that is BETTER?  OTOH, a Premium Ship should not break the game balance, either.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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12 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Why should it be an inferior product?

Who spoke about inferior? Premium ships have credit, xp and captain training advantages that tech tree ships do not have. In this manner they are 'better' in very useful ways, which more than justifies their cost. Add to these advantages that premium ships represent 'exotic' alternatives, with a cachet of rarity... They ought not offer unusual gameplay advantage over tech tree ships in any other way. That they do is bad for the games reputation, bad for the future of game balance (its recent past isn't looking so good either..), toxic for development, but great for the company bank balance.

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1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

A premium ship should be balanced to be competitive with other fully upgraded ships at their tier. This idea that premium vehicles should be worse than their fully upgraded counterparts has loooooong ago disappeared. And thank god for that.

Mind you, this idea that they are entitled to a better ship because they spent money is hogwash too.

 

54 minutes ago, Fodder4U said:

You obviously came from WOT. It works a bit different here in WOWS for premiums. Just because it is one way in one title does not mean it is the same for all titles. Please don't try to dictate to WG how it is "supposed" to be.

These two nailed it. 

 

/thread. 

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2 hours ago, Kizarvexis said:

Well, when you get into CVs, their whole system is messed up. Something needs to be done to fix it, but I'm don't know enough about CVs to know what that would be.

Well, neither does WG. The mess has accumulated for far too long, and perhaps beyond fixing without a massive overhaul that would result in WoWS 1.0.0...and even then Saipan and E (Perhaps Kaga too?) can only be nerfed via global changes...

Meanwhile, Tanks is beyond hope, and most any plane can become OP in WoWP given the right circumstances and a competent pilot.

Problem is, "gimmicks" in Ships tend to be stuff that works way too well in the tier that the "gimmicky" ships were assigned to, not to mention the possibility to plonk a highly-trained captain in ready for action. Some ended up not only being competitive but into the level of slaughter...carriers are exempt, because they are beyond broken.

 

...why did Gremy and Nikolai got pulled and relegated to Supercontainers again? They were done so prematurely before the in-game premium rotation...

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Each premium needs to be 'different' than it's tree counterpart.  Not a straight up copy pasta of the tree ship.  To make them different, WG has used a lot of special gimmicks.  One can make a particular ship OP at the time.  But changes to the game (like removal of OWSF for example) did remove several of them from the OP category and back into the 'Gudbote' realm.  Changes to the game can sometimes be a huge nerf to an OP ship.  

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Most premiums are better in some ways but worse in others. Alabama has better armor but worse accuracy than NC. Kutz has no radar but smoke compared to chappy. Most of these changes don't mean much once the average player gets their hands on the ship, but some premiums in the hands of good players are on the overpowered side of the spectrum

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Haven't been around long enough to evaluate many premiums here on ships, but WoTs console has figured out that they make a lot more money if they make the premiums better than the tech tree. Lotsa salt produced but more players want their crutch than don't. I don't care one way or another. 

Hey, I bought the Yubari and the Marblehead on purpose, lol. I do enjoy me a challenge. 

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As an owner of many premiums I agree with the OP. I also find crazy OP premiums to be boring to play though. As an example I only have a hand full of games in the Imp Nick as it's a bit cheesy. 

 

Also the buff to Tirpitz' secondary battery (while I understand the logic) was a bit of a head scratcher. I would have maybe loaded some of the guns with AP to offset it. Tirpitz' was already a powerful ship in it's own right. 

 

The situation with the Lex vs. Enterprise is almost laughable as well. 

 

It will probably get me Boo'd out if here, but an example of a proper premium would be the DoY. 

 

With the exception of the Free XP boats as those typically are at least much of a grind as their tech tree counterparts and cost no real money to obtain yes, prems should find themselves under a fully decked out tree boat.

 

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17 minutes ago, pyantoryng said:

Well, neither does WG. The mess has accumulated for far too long, and perhaps beyond fixing without a massive overhaul that would result in WoWS 1.0.0...and even then Saipan and E (Perhaps Kaga too?) can only be nerfed via global changes...

Meanwhile, Tanks is beyond hope, and most any plane can become OP in WoWP given the right circumstances and a competent pilot.

Problem is, "gimmicks" in Ships tend to be stuff that works way too well in the tier that the "gimmicky" ships were assigned to, not to mention the possibility to plonk a highly-trained captain in ready for action. Some ended up not only being competitive but into the level of slaughter...carriers are exempt, because they are beyond broken.

 

...why did Gremy and Nikolai got pulled and relegated to Supercontainers again? They were done so prematurely before the in-game premium rotation...

 

As I understand it, they were considered overpowered. With the changes in the game and power creep, some are saying that they are no longer overpowered. YMMV

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Because premium ships need to be good and/or different or few players would buy them. 

 

Premium ships dont need to be worse than tech tree ships, they need to be balanced for their tier. If premiums are better it messes with the game balance. If they are worse there is no reason to buy them.

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