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Petiton to change the name of the French tier 10 Battleship

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9 minutes ago, dmckay said:

The Brits had more casualties. 

It wasn't a great victory tactically for either side but de Grasse had the ability to write back to Paris that he had accomplished his mission. Graves probably went out to engage because of Admiral Byng, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng who was court martial'ed for cowardice and shot.

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I'm truly surprised at the amount of threads devoted to asking the name of France. It's the pinnacle of the line, a symbol of power, and as such, been given the name of the nation to bear.

 

Being given the name of her nation is a great honor, it is such an honor, for instance, that Deutschland was renamed to Lützow to keep from having her nation's name when she inevitably sunk.

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15 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

I'm truly surprised at the amount of threads devoted to asking the name of France. It's the pinnacle of the line, a symbol of power, and as such, been given the name of the nation to bear.

 

Being given the name of her nation is a great honor, it is such an honor, for instance, that Deutschland was renamed to Lützow to keep from having her nation's name when she inevitably sunk.

58 minutes ago, mofton said:

I agree. Add in that the UK has had Albion (an old name for Britain) and Britannia (well...) and it's pretty normal.

I think the issue is that to a native english speaker names like Albion, Britannia, and Deutschland sound somewhat exotic and majestic whereas France ends up coming off as pedestrian and boring.

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25 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

It wasn't a great victory tactically for either side but de Grasse had the ability to write back to Paris that he had accomplished his mission. Graves probably went out to engage because of Admiral Byng, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng who was court martial'ed for cowardice and shot.

Fair enough. Nice link by the way. 

In context the naval battle was a very significant fight. Cornwallis was left high and dry then defeated. In part, due to his defeat,  the British began to open avenues for a negotiated peace. They could have keep it up but chose not to. They were tired of the cost and with the French in decided it was no longer worth the effort. They were practical and by 1781/82 had had enough of it. Interesting exchange by the way...tks.

Edited by dmckay

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5 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Fair enough. Nice link by the way. 

In context the naval battle was a very significant fight. Cornwallis was left high and dry then defeated. In part, due to his defeat,  the British began to open avenues for a negotiated peace. They could have keep it up but chose not to. They were tired of the cost and with the French in decided it was no longer worth the effort. They were practical and by 1781/82 had had enough of it. 

Byng's execution colored (coloured) the thinking of British admirals for a long time and even at the time he was executed there was lots of thought within the Royal Navy officer core that he really hadn't done anything wrong.

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Charlemagne, King of the Franks is a fitting name for the top tier BB of the French line.  If the Russian WG developers knew the how he made a great impact of what is now France they would of selected that name.

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29 minutes ago, Kestrel_Falcon said:

Charlemagne, King of the Franks is a fitting name for the top tier BB of the French line.  If the Russian WG developers knew the how he made a great impact of what is now France they would of selected that name.

Small issue here with Charlemagne. Is he to be considered French or Germanic? That is somewhat debated but the Franks are always referred to as a Germanic tribe.  Very different from the Celts or Gauls of modern day France... or whatever ya want to call them. I guess it's best to just call him a Frank. Thought to have been born in Aachen (debated) which is the most Western city in Germany. Also he had a nice big palace there. 

Edited by dmckay

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36 minutes ago, Vladeshi said:

 

I think the issue is that to a native english speaker names like Albion, Britannia, and Deutschland sound somewhat exotic and majestic whereas France ends up coming off as pedestrian and boring.

Well, in fairness, it's not pronounced, "Fr-an-ss", it's fr-aw-n-ss". The "n" is barely even pronounced.

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2 hours ago, Vladeshi said:

 

I think the issue is that to a native english speaker names like Albion, Britannia, and Deutschland sound somewhat exotic and majestic whereas France ends up coming off as pedestrian and boring.

Gaul and Franconia, heck even Francia sound considerably more awesome than France. 

Now that I think about it, Gaul sounds like a really cool ship name. 

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2 hours ago, dmckay said:

Small issue here with Charlemagne. Is he to be considered French or Germanic? That is somewhat debated but the Franks are always referred to as a Germanic tribe.  Very different from the Celts or Gauls of modern day France... or whatever ya want to call them. I guess it's best to just call him a Frank. Thought to have been born in Aachen (debated) which is the most Western city in Germany. Also he had a nice big palace there. 

He was a Frank who extended his rule into Germany. The Franks being "Germanic"applies the definition to basically all the European invaders of the 5th century. This does not mean German. Charlemagne subjugated the Bavarians and Saxons(quite brutally) and the Eastern part of his empire that ultimately became Germany but he was a Frank. Both nations could probably claim him since Charlemagne was the first Holy Roman Emperor(which became a German title over time), but France has a better claim here. If that seems to contradict itself it kind of does. Charlemagne's capital is just across the border of modern day Germany but that means little in the context of the 9th century, 1 of the 4 German stem duchies is Franconia after all and at the time that literally meant it had Franks in it. 

To simplify Frank is much closer to meaning French than Germanic is to meaning German. 

Edited by Aristotle83

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12 minutes ago, BreakingForce said:

agreed. as stated earlier, i have zero issues with the name "France"

This, and while not a Ship of the Line aka battleship there is the USS United States which used a very primitive form of director controlled battery fire.

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15 hours ago, Aristotle83 said:

He was a Frank who extended his rule into Germany. The Franks being "Germanic"applies the definition to basically all the European invaders of the 5th century. This does not mean German. Charlemagne subjugated the Bavarians and Saxons(quite brutally) and the Eastern part of his empire that ultimately became Germany but he was a Frank. Both nations could probably claim him since Charlemagne was the first Holy Roman Emperor(which became a German title over time), but France has a better claim here. If that seems to contradict itself it kind of does. Charlemagne's capital is just across the border of modern day Germany but that means little in the context of the 9th century, 1 of the 4 German stem duchies is Franconia after all and at the time that literally meant it had Franks in it. 

To simplify Frank is much closer to meaning French than Germanic is to meaning German. 

It is rather confusing and tks for your input. 

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17 hours ago, Aristotle83 said:

He was a Frank who extended his rule into Germany. The Franks being "Germanic"applies the definition to basically all the European invaders of the 5th century. This does not mean German. Charlemagne subjugated the Bavarians and Saxons(quite brutally) and the Eastern part of his empire that ultimately became Germany but he was a Frank. Both nations could probably claim him since Charlemagne was the first Holy Roman Emperor(which became a German title over time), but France has a better claim here. If that seems to contradict itself it kind of does. Charlemagne's capital is just across the border of modern day Germany but that means little in the context of the 9th century, 1 of the 4 German stem duchies is Franconia after all and at the time that literally meant it had Franks in it. 

To simplify Frank is much closer to meaning French than Germanic is to meaning German. 

Well those naughty Saxons had to be converted to Christianity. As you well know the Franks became the militant arm of the Christian Church of Rome and their conversion to Christianity happened long before Charlemagne. Clovis, a Frank, was first to convert and could be called the first king of France I do reckon.  Perhaps! Militant Christianity!  It was a brutal era for sure. That era fascinates me and the Franks insured, to a large degree, that Christianity would "Triumph" in Europe. Wonder what would have transpired had the Franks not hooked up with the Christian church? Islam tried it's invasion of Europe in the 8th century.  Charles "The Hammer" Martel put a stop to that in FRANCE.  Battle of Tours. Not being political here just citing fact. What does this have to do with naming a ship? Hell if I know but I just find that era fascinating as I said and indeed the Franks can certainly be linked to France as you pointed out. Carry on. Nice talking to you. I enjoy this kinda stuff.  History is my thing.:Smile_honoring:

Edited by dmckay

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23 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Well those naughty Saxons had to be converted to Christianity. As you well know the Franks became the militant arm of the Christian Church of Rome and their conversion to Christianity happened long before Charlemagne. Clovis.  Militant Christianity!  It was a brutal era for sure. That era fascinates me and the Franks insured, to a large degree, that Christianity would "Triumph" in Europe. Wonder what would have transpired had the Franks not hooked up with the Christian church? Islam tried it's invasion of Europe in the 8th century.  Charles "The Hammer" Martel put a stop to that in FRANCE. Not being political here just citing fact. What does this have to do with naming a ship? Hell if I know but I just find that era fascinating as I said. Carry on. Nice talking to you. I enjoy this kinda stuff.  History is my thing.:Smile_honoring:

It's interesting because that relationship played a big factor later on. In the late 6th century the Lombards invaded Italy and took all but the south(which is why the North of Italy is called Lombardy) from the Romans and the French under Charlemagne's father and Charlemange were the one's who helped the church out by subjugating the Lombards and giving the Pope the Papal States and the means to be so powerful later on as most of Europe's conversions came after this. If the Franks don't convert to Christianity, who else is there to support them at that time? The East Romans didn't recognize the Papacy, the Visigoths who converted(and who knows if they convert even without the Frankish example?) were about to get mauled by the Muslims and that was basically Catholic Europe, everyone was either Arian Christian(no relationship with the word Aryan, means no belief in the Holy Trinity was the popular faith amongst Germanic tribes right after Rome's fall) or Pagan. So the Roman Catholic Church would either not exist at some point(Lombard domination) or just be another major dicoese in a major population center with nothing to distinguish it from it's rivals in the East.

I am fascinated with history too, part of why I play the game is to bring the naval history(something I've been more and more fascinated with the last few years) to life. Really enjoy these sorts of convos.

It is my opinion the Islamic invasion of France was doomed as Muslim Spain was less than 20 years away from splitting with the rest of the at this point still united Caliphate.

Another great name for the ship would be Charles the Fat, or some king from the pre regnal number era who had a nickname that's hilarious in the modern context . 

 

Edited by Aristotle83

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4 hours ago, Aristotle83 said:

It's interesting because that relationship played a big factor later on. In the late 6th century the Lombards invaded Italy and took all but the south(which is why the North of Italy is called Lombardy) from the Romans and the French under Charlemagne's father and Charlemange were the one's who helped the church out by subjugating the Lombards and giving the Pope the Papal States and the means to be so powerful later on as most of Europe's conversions came after this. If the Franks don't convert to Christianity, who else is there to support them at that time? The East Romans didn't recognize the Papacy, the Visigoths who converted(and who knows if they convert even without the Frankish example?) were about to get mauled by the Muslims and that was basically Catholic Europe, everyone was either Arian Christian(no relationship with the word Aryan, means no belief in the Holy Trinity was the popular faith amongst Germanic tribes right after Rome's fall) or Pagan. So the Roman Catholic Church would either not exist at some point(Lombard domination) or just be another major dicoese in a major population center with nothing to distinguish it from it's rivals in the East.

I am fascinated with history too, part of why I play the game is to bring the naval history(something I've been more and more fascinated with the last few years) to life. Really enjoy these sorts of convos.

It is my opinion the Islamic invasion of France was doomed as Muslim Spain was less than 20 years away from splitting with the rest of the at this point still united Caliphate.

Another great name for the ship would be Charles the Fat, or some king from the pre regnal number era who had a nickname that's hilarious in the modern context . 

 

Charles the Bald? heh

Edited by dmckay

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Under Frankish law, each son had to have an equal inheritance. Charlemagne's kingdom was spilt in three and further devolved when Northmen (first Danish then Viking) started plundering. It's a fascinating, utterly complex, part of history indeed.

 

As for tier X's name. Well France is mostly kwown as 60ish luxury cruiser later known as Queen Elizabeth II, I can see the jokes already lining up.

But historically it's a problem, France stopped building ships after Vichy and used US ships right into the 50 when BB became obsolete. I think Jean Bart will already be set up as a premium somewhere.

My take would be to use another French regional name like Lorraine instead

My troll name : Catapult :Smile-_tongue:

 

 

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Since it's a fictional ship, made of paper, why not a fictional name, also from paper?

 

Call it the 'D'Artagnan'.

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