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Madwolf05

Cruiser Captain Rant: Why Battleships make me salty

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Hey guys,

It's your resident Battleship hater, Madwolf. I think I owe those who are confused as to my bitterness an explanation.

As a person who plays Cruisers more than any other class, Battleships, especially friendly ships, are the bain of my existance.

The reasoning behind this is because of the absolute passive, long range way the majority of Battleships generally play.

While Battleships have long range, there is very little reason for them to stay at the edge of it, where they are incredibly limited in their effectiveness, especially German Battleships.

Simply put, when Battleships fight at those ranges Cruisers either can't engage or must push up to the point where they can, making them incredibly vulberable and a priority target for every ship on the map because they're easier to hit than the Battleships and offer a much bigger reward in a shorter amount of time.

Unlike Battleships Cruisers are hard pressed to restore health and retreat in conditions a Battleship could manage, and they are generally unable to deflect higher caliber shells.

It is important that a Battleship use his health as a resource for the team, and while difficult to learn at first, will quickly become second nature and balloon your win rate.

Far too often the reason Battleships end up overwhelmed is because they didn't use their armor and health properly early enough, and their Cruisers were lost trying to make plays to stave off defeat without support.

I realize many think Cruisers run from supporting you Battleships when the fire starts, and that is true with good reason. As said above, we're very squishy, while you really aren't. So if we start getting targetted we have to back out in order to safely return to your aid.

You don't have to be wreckless, but living inside a 15 to 12km engagement range is far more valuable to the team and will not only help you win more, but survive as well, and your Cruisers will be far less salty with you.

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There is a lot of passive play all around, I have seen it just as much from cruisers , or better yet a cruiser or dd ignoring another cruiser or dd that is a helluva lot closer to keep shooting at a bb with he only to ignore the little guy who is going to torp me because of yet again another selfish campaign so ya it's only BB's lol ..

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Unfortunately the meta seems to be changing with even BBs that suffer from bad dispersion sitting in the back as well as this new philosophy that it is better to survive the battle than die which causes many BBs to run from any head on confrontation.

I don't know if it's a by product of the Steam players or something else but BB play has devolved into something awful from a year ago.

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Let's see? Individual John Wayne type people, playing a team game with no incentive to really play as a team, and no loss of any kind for not playing as a team. Gonna have to say it's not the DD, BB, CA, CL, or CV's fault, It's either the way the game is set up or it's the individual captains inability to work together.

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1 minute ago, Madwolf05 said:

Hey guys,

It's your resident Battleship hater, Madwolf. I think I owe those who are confused as to my bitterness an explanation.

As a person who plays Cruisers more than any other class, Battleships, especially friendly ships, are the bain of my existance.

The reasoning behind this is because of the absolute passive, long range way the majority of Battleships generally play.

While Battleships have long range, there is very little reason for them to stay at the edge of it, where they are incredibly limited in their effectiveness, especially German Battleships.

Simply put, when Battleships fight at those ranges Cruisers either can't engage or must push up to the point where they can, making them incredibly vulberable and a priority target for every ship on the map because they're easier to hit than the Battleships and offer a much bigger reward in a shorter amount of time.

Unlike Battleships Cruisers are hard pressed to restore health and retreat in conditions a Battleship could manage, and they are generally unable to deflect higher caliber shells.

It is important that a Battleship use his health as a resource for the team, and while difficult to learn at first, will quickly become second nature and balloon your win rate.

Far too often the reason Battleships end up overwhelmed is because they didn't use their armor and health properly early enough, and their Cruisers were lost trying to make plays to stave off defeat without support.

I realize many think Cruisers run from supporting you Battleships when the fire starts, and that is true with good reason. As said above, we're very squishy, while you really aren't. So if we start getting targetted we have to back out in order to safely return to your aid.

You don't have to be wreckless, but living inside a 15 to 12km engagement range is far more valuable to the team and will not only help you win more, but survive as well, and your Cruisers will be far less salty with you.

There are more BB’s that do this than you think. The problem is the potatoes stick out more than the stellar B.B. players. Also speaking from a BB side of things, I’m all for getting into the action, however more often than not when I recommend a push and say in chat I’m pushing a cap, usually I turn around to see my “supporting” cruisers spamming HE from 17km +, which despite the appearance of assistance, does little in the way of eliminating foes.

I play cruisers nowadays I’d say more than battleships. My outlook from a cruiser standpoint is im supposed to be the Rodeo Clown. I want to get shot at by the enemy. I am more maneuverable and despite the odd citadel while angled, yes I realize those happen and they annoy me too, I can usually take some damage if need be. When I do play BBs I understand the frustration from the cruiser standpoint, but also from a battleship standpoint of getting left out to dry. It’s easy for someone to say “Just angle and tank damage,” when in reality most of the time people ignore you even when you are a threat. From a priority standpoint if I see a BB or a cruiser farther away, I’m aiming at the cruiser. This is of course assuming similar angling. This priority is because of the threat a cruiser poses to me the battleship. I can manage to bounce or mitigate BB damage. I cannot mitigate being set on fire repeatedly.

At the end of the day whether I play a cruiser or BB I’ll do my best to support the team given the situation I’m thrown into. If that means I yell and scream while waving my arms to draw attention to me as a cruiser I’ll do that. If that means pushing a base hard in a BB and damn the torpedos I’ll do so. Everyone has their own ship lines they despise, RN BBs, but people need to put aside those frustrations to win the match.

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everyone needs to push in a collective to suppress an area. Ive seen cruisers leave bbs to dry all the time and vice-versa.  I just think people in general confuse being aggressive and being passive all the time and it gets them killed.

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This thread is going be exactly what you described. People sitting at max range flinging feces not accomplishing anything. Because when I am in the back/retreating its tactical but when you are in the back/retreating its cowardly.

 

:Smile_popcorn:

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17 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

You don't have to be wreckless, but living inside a 15 to 12km engagement range is far more valuable to the team and will not only help you win more, but survive as well, and your Cruisers will be far less salty with you.

This is where I play the majority of my ships and often find myself being left alone on a flank, that's completely defendable, often resulting in the loss of both the flank and my ship.

It works both ways this argument, and unfortuantly I don't see any way that it'll change anytime soon.

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1 minute ago, Pyromaniac_Rasputin said:

Because when I am in the back/retreating its tactical but when you are in the back/retreating its cowardly.

I'm pretty sure most people only look at the mini-map after they're dead so they can find somebody else to blame.

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Positioning is difficult, and strategic thinking, particularly selfless strategic thinking more so. It's not something everyone understands intuitively, and some people will just never learn it. It's best to accept that and keep going.

 

Plus none of the players who need to read this message will. They don't go on the forums. They think its a waste of time, and they think no one here really understands anything anyways. The ones who do don't think they are the problem, even if they are, because they can rationalize their poor decisions away. 

Although I can understand wanting to vent every once in a while. 

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29 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Let's see? Individual John Wayne type people, playing a team game with no incentive to really play as a team, and no loss of any kind for not playing as a team. Gonna have to say it's not the DD, BB, CA, CL, or CV's fault, It's either the way the game is set up or it's the individual captains inability to work together.

Easy there, pilgrim.  Referencing the Duke is going to date you.  :cap_old:

 

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More camping BB's = more ships to burn with fire. 

Bow campers = XP bags. 

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12 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Easy there, pilgrim.  Referencing the Duke is going to date you.  :cap_old:

 

True , then again what the guy said about him in Repo Man was hilarious..

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I think a big issue for me is wanting to play my Cruisers but feeling as if I NEED to play a Battleship in order to have a competent one on our side.

 

For me that's how bad this has gotten. It makes it frustrating to have a BB out XP you as well because he simply survived longer and got a higher alpha hit that put him over the top. Sometimes you just get blapped and don't survive long enough to beat dumb luck by bad players.

To me that's something that should receive a small adjustment.

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I love my Roon, it tends to punish BB's very well due to its nice armor. 

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Very simple way to solve this whole thing. Shorten Battleship gun range. Force them to have to move up to closer ranges to engage or just be out of range the whole game and get nothing from it. 

Edited by SteelClaw
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10 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

I think a big issue for me is wanting to play my Cruisers but feeling as if I NEED to play a Battleship in order to have a competent one on our side.

This is precisely why so many unicum players refuse to play outside a division.

 

10 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

Sometimes you just get blapped and don't survive long enough to beat dumb luck by bad players.

Technically possible, but exceedingly rare among players who are truly in command of their ships, particularly at T10 where cruiser armor actually works sometimes.

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:08 PM, Madwolf05 said:

I think a big issue for me is wanting to play my Cruisers but feeling as if I NEED to play a Battleship in order to have a competent one on our side.

 

For me that's how bad this has gotten. It makes it frustrating to have a BB out XP you as well because he simply survived longer and got a higher alpha hit that put him over the top. Sometimes you just get blapped and don't survive long enough to beat dumb luck by bad players.

To me that's something that should receive a small adjustment.

I sometimes will play DD's for this same exact reason.  I see too many incompetent DD players.  At least I consider them incompetent.  IJN DD players who overuse their guns in the wrong situation.  Players in torp boats who get too close to the enemy before launching their torps and are then stuck in no man's land when they get spotted.  Players who blindly charge onto caps unsupported because they think that they're god's gift to DDs when all they really are is XP piñata to the enemy team.  Players who use offensive smoke in the wrong situation, i.e. not enough of their team is up and engaging the enemy and he was really the only one doing the spotting.  (I have no problem with DD's using offensive smoke (except for the entire concept of it, but that's a different argument), but they have to know when and where to use it.  And too many don't.)  Then there are the DD players who will instantly get on a cap and smoke up, as if it's some sort of force field protecting them, when all it's really doing is acting as a giant neon sign saying "DD here", as well as a torpedo magnet.

It's really amazing how many bad DD players there are.  At least with BBs, things are sorta-kinda simple.  Aim at enemy, shoot at enemy. And angle your armor, if you don't want a paddlin'.  Good DD play requires a lot more subtlety and caution (unless perhaps you're in a Kiev or a Khab, and then you just race around the map pew-pewing), because you're just so squishy that you can't afford to be taking wild risks too often.

 

As for BBs, CAs, and XP, a lot of that probably comes down to the percentage of damage you're doing to your targets.  If you're supporting and spreading your damage around too widely, it may be that you're just not doing enough damage as a percentage of your targets to earn good XP.  About the only way to spread damage around and get really good XP is if you're doing a LOT of damage to a lot of targets.  And maybe grabbing a cap or defending them in the process.

Edited by Crucis
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I've seen this in almost every game.
 

Sometimes i really want to say "Get your beefy high armored azz up here with everyone else and quit letting me be the target when your ship can actually take a hit or two".
If this type of play keeps going it's gonna turn into World of Battleships, cause it's annoying to be the only target while every other ship even remotely near you is hiding/running away from the battle cause heaven forbid they may take any damage.

It's worth mentioning, I say this as someone who plays battleships and not just cruisers or destroyers.

Edited by xovian

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Well the meta definitely changed when they changed the smoke rules after that nobody wants to push forward or be the guy closest to the enemy because he'll be picked on first don't say it's right but that's how it is

Used to be the Destroyers could help cover your Fleet but now that's pretty much useless except for escape maneuvers and if you're a battleship trying to escape it's too late so why bother moving up until the way is clear is what most people think now I believe

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Reasons BB's don't push:

10 DD's a game, walls of skill everywhere.

RN BB spamming fire

Everyone spamming fire

Never see a CV

-----------------------

So yeah.....

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You know, when I read the OP I got a hunch that you had mainly played USN CAs, and after a brief glance at your stats I see that I am largely correct.

I felt very similarly about BBs while grinding the mid tier USN CAs. I think playing these CAs in particular foster this feeling of resentment towards BBs because, while they have several tools which in theory help against BBs, they ultimately have no reliable defence against them. Short ranges and floaty shells, as well as the desire to help our teams with hydro and radar pushes us in. But once we're near the cap circles we can no longer use our low detection to hide from enemy ships, nor can we use our excellent rudder shift to effectively dodge. While the balti and NO have decent armour, neither can actually bow-tank a BB, and the NO has this really weird slab of superstructure on the back which acts like a net; catching every shell which is flung at you if you try to kite away. Perhaps things would be better if we had torpedoes, because at least then we'd sometimes pose an existential threat to BBs, and could deter them from mindlessly pushing us as they please. But since we don't, it creates this situation where we are constantly being focused and dev strikes by BBs sitting 10+km away from the cap as we desperately wonder where our own BBs are hiding. USN CAs consistently have some of the lowest survival rates of any ship class in the game.

Now, I did make the point a couple months ago that particularly the Balti can use its lack of threat to effectively hide amongst friendly ships. Since you are rarely the most dangerous ship to enemy BBs, (given that you lack big guns and torps) it is possible to sail around quite openly as long as the enemy big boys always have something better to shoot at than you. But even this play style is entirely dependent on the enemy team never considering you important enough to shoot, and it often means that you can't get into those perfect positions to use your radar or support your DDs or do the most damage you could, because doing so would make you too much of a target.

I will say that after diversifying my cruiser lines a bit my stance on BBs has softened. I've found a new love for the ARP Takao, which has the ability to burn BBs to the ground with an amazing 21% fire chance, only to disappear into nothing if they ever decide to shoot back. Other ships, like the Atlanta or KM CLs might fear BBs, but pack such a dangerous sting that you always feel like you can at least maul them back nicely.

 

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Got to remember that in any given random match of 24 players:

6 are drunk, 5 are high, 5 really care, 3 have their wives or kids screaming at them from playing to much, 2 are working on campaigns and could care less about winning, 2 disconnect or are afk, and 1 just sucks.

Not a dream scenario of candidates.

 

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