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BullpupWOT

Can someone explain to me/teach me how to think?

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Here was the situation:

Im in the Phoenix...can't remember if tier 4 or tier 5 lobby.  Solomon Isles, domination, south spawn (maybe more southwest).  

I push left to A with the DDs and actually used my hydro to advantage for once. Much of the team follows and pushes. 2 or 3 ships lose B and C. I see this happening and come about and start back toward where I know four or five ships are coming through B and around C.  As I'm doing this, the two BBs left on our side of the map race by me toward A and go around the corner with the rest of the remaining green team. 

Now, at this point, the enemy was up over 500 or 600 points with us behind by 150-250 (maybe more). I can't remember the exact numbers but the enemy was definitely getting up there. 

Should the timer be motivating my actions like it did?  I would have made a fighting retreat myself if points were low, close, or even.

Why does this feel like I did the right thing but I may actually have not done the right thing?

please educate....thank you

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Hard to give specific feedback without a replay. If you were asking whether or not to turn around and try to stop 4-5 ships by yourself because the rest of your team on that side was already dead, the answer is no, you'd just be giving them another ship kill for free.

In general, the timer becomes important later on in the match. In the early portion of the round, winning fights is a bigger deal.

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That's a tough one.  The fact that the whole team, with the exception of a few that went B and C alone,  was doing a lemming train past A makes it a tough hill to climb.  Allowing half of the team to go around A towards B would be fine.  If at least 1 DD and the 2 BBs turned and went with you, your tactic would work fine and your team would probably pincer them at B.  Going alone is just suicide, but if you can stay at range and dodge shots, you can hold the enemy up until your Northeast bound team gets to the B cap.  If your team can get a couple of kills, it swings the point total a bit to prevent a run away win for the enemy.  Then, if you can push into an area and take the cap, you can gain the advantage on points going forward.  Without much more info on how the team was reacting, other than everyone following the leader, its hard to determine what the situation was and how damaged the remaining ships were and what their position was on the map.  Sometimes you just have to go with the train, and hope the enemy is just as bad.  You have to make that call based on what the battlefield looks like.  Its good to put up a lone front, but a dead ship is a dead ship and it does no good.

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I had a battle with you this morning where you had three or four kills (filthy kill stealer!). I wouldn't second guess yourself, you were playing well. Never underestimate the stupidity of the whole.

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7 minutes ago, Murcc said:

Going alone is just suicide

Most often, this.  But, should you let the timer dictate your actions?  If you want to win, certainly.  And in this case, sticking with your team - while safer - would surely guarantee the loss.

The Phoenix is a pretty squishy boat to pull this off in, because you need to be shooting at the enemy team to get their attention, but you want to be running away when you do.  (Then again, I'm not sure any T4 cruiser is particularly 'good' for this.)  You need to kite two or three of their ships off their line of attack to split their force.  Then when your lemming train runs into one group they have a numbers advantage.  You'll most likely end up dead ('Good night, Westley.  Good job.  I'll most likely kill you in the morning."), but the longer you live the more effective it can be.

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Do you have a replay. Do you even have replays enabled? Because you should have replays enabled and if you do than you can Summon Smaug of the Seven Seas, keeper of the treasury and inventor of the Time Extension for game play advice. I can't remember the rest but @Lord_Zath knows the guy who can help. 

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2 minutes ago, RedSeaBear said:

Do you have a replay. Do you even have replays enabled? Because you should have replays enabled and if you do than you can Summon Smaug of the Seven Seas, keeper of the treasury and inventor of the Time Extension for game play advice. I can't remember the rest but @Lord_Zath knows the guy who can help. 

I haven't downloaded that yet. Sorry

suffice it to say that the team was circling in A when I spotted and started engaging the enemy ships...they just went on around the other side at that point and the two BBs that left just followed. It was the point counter that concerned me more than the sticking together and going around. They never made it back around to B to engage, but my death didn't help the counter points either

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37 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

Here was the situation:

Im in the Phoenix...can't remember if tier 4 or tier 5 lobby.  Solomon Isles, domination, south spawn (maybe more southwest).  

I push left to A with the DDs and actually used my hydro to advantage for once. Much of the team follows and pushes. 2 or 3 ships lose B and C. I see this happening and come about and start back toward where I know four or five ships are coming through B and around C.  As I'm doing this, the two BBs left on our side of the map race by me toward A and go around the corner with the rest of the remaining green team. 

Now, at this point, the enemy was up over 500 or 600 points with us behind by 150-250 (maybe more). I can't remember the exact numbers but the enemy was definitely getting up there. 

Should the timer be motivating my actions like it did?  I would have made a fighting retreat myself if points were low, close, or even.

Why does this feel like I did the right thing but I may actually have not done the right thing?

please educate....thank you

In a phoenix, your options are quite limited in terms of dictating the pace of a game. 

It's more of a support ship, a la omaha. 

But based off your description, your tactical awarness is much higher then most new players , and if you keep thinking the way you think. You should win more then lose. 

Once you get the mechanics down pat, and a decent ship like the Cleveland, you should see an increase in performance. 

Just keep doing what you are doing, being very aware, the rest will fall in place. 

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Also, the fact that you are a 55% win rate player in your last 92 games is a very good sign @BullpupWOT

For someone with such low GP and being new, that's very impressive.  Just keep doing what you are doing. 

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51 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

Now, at this point, the enemy was up over 500 or 600 points with us behind by 150-250 (maybe more). I can't remember the exact numbers but the enemy was definitely getting up there. 

Should the timer be motivating my actions like it did?  I would have made a fighting retreat myself if points were low, close, or even.

How worry you should be about points and time remaining on the clock depends on a number of things, point lead, how much time is left and how many players are near death on each side. This is because when someone is eliminated there's a point swing with the size of the swing depending the class of the ship. If it's early game, then a small lead doesn't matter since as more ships die you can easily swing the points back to your favor without any caps changing hands. If it's very late game, then it becomes important to consider since the game is likely to end on points. Having said that, you can't only look at points and timer as there are many more factor that ultimately decides the flow of any given game at any given time.

 

51 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

Why does this feel like I did the right thing but I may actually have not done the right thing?

In WoWS timing is an important factor. It's very common for people to do the right thing at the wrong time.... like pushing extremely deep into a cap in a BB, proceed to die and then blame the rest of your team for "not supporting." In your case, going back by yourself to try to hold of 4-5 ships is generally a losing proposition and you're basically just giving your team an extra kill and an even bigger point lead by dying.... now if 4 of those 5 ships are near 1 shots, then the story is different, so timing is a major element of this game that most people don't grasp. 

 

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Generally, as Fishrokk said above, it's hard to break off from the main group and lead a comeback carry in a cruiser that is squishy and doesn't have a heal.

I had a similar situation yesterday when we had three or four enemy ships flanking us from B and C while our main force went A - and that main force decided to go all the way around the big island at A instead of doubling back to help.  I was in Prinz Eugen, which doesn't have a heal, so I had to kite and distract 3 ships until I died - while the team slowly made their way around A to get shots at B.  I think I lost a karma point because I asked the BB's what they were doing going around the long way and they didn't like that.  We only managed to win because the other team's last two ships didn't realize that all they had to do was run away and they would have won on points.

Long story short, I thought the only chance we had to win was if someone kept the flanking ships lit and put some pressure on them.  I didn't get a kill, but I whittled down the health on three ships significantly.  I had to go dark quite a bit (stop shooting) to re-position because I was getting focused, but I was able to make a difference.

TL;DR - in a case like this I am willing to make a break from the main force in a cruiser to harass, distract, and spot - but not straight yolo.

 

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18 minutes ago, delp5117 said:

Generally, as Fishrokk said above, it's hard to break off from the main group and lead a comeback carry in a cruiser that is squishy and doesn't have a heal.

I had a similar situation yesterday when we had three or four enemy ships flanking us from B and C while our main force went A - and that main force decided to go all the way around the big island at A instead of doubling back to help.  I was in Prinz Eugen, which doesn't have a heal, so I had to kite and distract 3 ships until I died - while the team slowly made their way around A to get shots at B.  I think I lost a karma point because I asked the BB's what they were doing going around the long way and they didn't like that.  We only managed to win because the other team's last two ships didn't realize that all they had to do was run away and they would have won on points.

Long story short, I thought the only chance we had to win was if someone kept the flanking ships lit and put some pressure on them.  I didn't get a kill, but I whittled down the health on three ships significantly.  I had to go dark quite a bit (stop shooting) to re-position because I was getting focused, but I was able to make a difference.

TL;DR - in a case like this I am willing to make a break from the main force in a cruiser to harass, distract, and spot - but not straight yolo.

 

I didn't get any kills...but I put a citadel hit on one of them...my consolation prize. :Smile_teethhappy:

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As a cruiser, and especially Phoenix, it's not really your job to push objectives or stall a push.  That's a job for the battleships (with big guns and armor) and destroyers (with stealth and torpedos).

All you can bring to the game is a large, vulnerable citadel, and some popguns.  As others have said, all you'd accomplish is a valiant suicide.

What you can do with Phoenix is pretty much one of two things.  You can dance at maximum range and set the enemy on fire (and hope they're not good enough to hit you in return)...  Or, you can support your BBs and harass/distract/set fire to their targets, and try to keep destroyers off them.

In both cases, you have to be extra alert to your priority target indicator and as much as possible control how many ships are able to see or shoot at you at any given time.  You want to keep that number as low as possible, and typically for as short a period as possible.

Because, for example, when I'm sailing my Nikolai (happens, on occasion), there's nothing I like to see more than a Phoenix (or Danae or ...) sailing in a straight line at about 11km range trying to "make something happen".  Something typically happens all right.

Best of luck to you, I hope you have many great games ahead!

:)

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Just now, BullpupWOT said:

I didn't get any kills...but I put a citadel hit on one of them...my consolation prize. :Smile_teethhappy:

That's all you can hope to do sometimes.  A lot of games with a team that lemmings and has no map awareness are going to be losses, but you can still work on individual tactics that might make a difference.  I just got lucky that we won in my case, simply because the other team was even less bright than mine.

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Fighting retreat is a viable option.

The Phoenix has excellent gun range for a tier 4 cruiser and can kite for days with proper WSAD hax - low tier enemy BBs should struggle mightily to hit you at 16km as you pepper them with HE and set fires.

Kite them away from caps and/or towards your team.

...

Edited by Dr_Powderfinger

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16 hours ago, BullpupWOT said:

Here was the situation:

Im in the Phoenix...can't remember if tier 4 or tier 5 lobby.  Solomon Isles, domination, south spawn (maybe more southwest).  

I push left to A with the DDs and actually used my hydro to advantage for once. Much of the team follows and pushes. 2 or 3 ships lose B and C. I see this happening and come about and start back toward where I know four or five ships are coming through B and around C.  As I'm doing this, the two BBs left on our side of the map race by me toward A and go around the corner with the rest of the remaining green team. 

Now, at this point, the enemy was up over 500 or 600 points with us behind by 150-250 (maybe more). I can't remember the exact numbers but the enemy was definitely getting up there. 

Should the timer be motivating my actions like it did?  I would have made a fighting retreat myself if points were low, close, or even.

Why does this feel like I did the right thing but I may actually have not done the right thing?

please educate....thank you

Sounds like you have the right mindset already, which is over half the battle.  Map awareness is very important in this game - far more so that World of Tanks as ships take considerable amounts of time to turn around and go back.  

In the specifics of that case, the best you could have hoped for if you turned back was to use the Phoenix's agility (kiting), good range and many HE guns to set fires on slow moving or not agile ships, and hopefully reset caps if they were still capping you.  Essentially, you would buy time at the risk that they actually hit you and you die (which is particularly easy in USN Cruisers like the Phoenix).  As you get better with more experience in the game, you can hit them more and dodge better so they hit you less, making this approach increasingly more viable. 

Generally though, in situtations that are hopeless like the above, it means your team lost the battle (much) earlier.  If you reflect on that, consider when the moment of loss happened - and its not necessarily only when your team lemminged to one side, as that sometimes does win if the push is aggressive.  

Still, in WoWS, it is eminently possible that you did well, you did all the right things, and yet you still lose the battle. Ultimately, there are 23 other people in the battle and unless you kill all 12 enemy ships, there is a chance that you can still lose.  Accept that some teams cannot be carried, no matter how hard you try and how well you do, as that acceptance will reduce your frustration with this game.  

Anyway, just by coming to the forums, seeking help and views, means you have an open growth mindset when it comes to learning the game - you will do well, young grasshopper.  

Good luck!

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One thing to consider is the difference between Standard and Domination.

In Standard, losing your cap is death, and a threat to it always needs to be dealt with. Going back by yourself, can be necessary, even though all you might be able to do is buy time.

In Domination, it's not the end of the world to give up a cap, if you have a strong momentum going that will allow you to take a different cap from the enemy. Not usually worth going back by yourself, unless you think you can deal with the ship(s) doing the capping.

Good on you for thinking about strategy at this point. I was well into T6 ships before I even began to consider much beyond individual ship to ship combat.

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Definitely check out how to enable replays -- they don't take up much room, and you can delete them every night if that is an issue (except the ones you want to keep). Makes it a lot easier for folks to give advice. 

 

:Smile_honoring:

 

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20 hours ago, BullpupWOT said:

Why does this feel like I did the right thing but I may actually have not done the right thing?

please educate....thank you

Watch how the round starts to shape up at the start. Are there too many ships going one way? Try to go the other. Don't spend a ton of time crossing the spawn but a team that gives up complete map control on one side usually loses the majority of the time, especially in domination. Even if you can't contest or hold the caps, delaying enemies by being annoying is very valuable. You want to avoid the lemming train.  Solomon is especially bad at this because players on one side have a hard time shooting at players on the other unless they're peeking through the middle. I'd personally like to see the map reworked a bit with a few more paths between points because it, more than any other map, probably trains players to lemming. 

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