Soo... I Have Been Pondering on the Idea of a Tier 7 Premium

[Hunter_Steel]

So lately I have been thinking that we've been slightly dry for new ship ideas, and also a nice Premium ship. In Tier 7.

The idea I came up with is using the Dutch Battlecruiser Design 1047. To give it to you simply, she'd essentially be a Dutch Scharnhorst with thinner Belt Armor, no Turtleback, Better Torpedo Defenses, Better Deck Armor, Worse Secondaries, Better AA and a Better Main Battery.

 

Her specs are as follows:

Type:     Battlecruiser
Displacement:     27,988 tonnes (27,546 long tons; 30,851 short tons)
Length:     

    236 m (774 ft) p.p.
    241.2 m (791 ft) overall

Beam:     

    29.4 m (96 ft) (outside armor)
    30.85 m (101.2 ft) (upper deck)

Draft:     7.8 m (26 ft) (trial)
Propulsion:     Not finalized; 4-shaft geared turbines and 8 boilers were certain, but shp would have been either 160,000 or 180,000; the latter would have allowed a top speed of around 34 knots
Armament:     

    9 × 283 mm (11.1 in) guns (3 × 3)
    12 × 120 mm (4.7 in)/45 caliber guns (6 × 2)
    14 × 40 mm Bofors (7 × 2)
    8 × 20 mm Oerlikon (8 × 1)

Armor:     

    Main side belt: 225 mm (9 in) inclined at 72° (external)
    Upper side belt: 40 mm (1.6 in) (vertical)
    Longitudinal anti-torpedo bulkhead: 40 mm (1.6 in)
    Upper deck: 20 mm (0.79 in)
    Main armored deck: 100 mm (4 in) on 15 mm (0.59 in) deck plating
    Lower deck: 30 mm (1 in)
    Boiler uptakes: 225 mm (8.9 in) gratings (main deck) and 75 mm (3.0 in) (lower deck)
    Underwater protection: Bulge below main side belt (depth 1.5 m (4.9 ft))
    Conning tower: 150 mm (5.9 in)
    Steering compartment: 150 mm (5.9 in)
    Steering compartment main deck: 125 mm (4.9 in)
    Armored bulkhead: 40 mm (1.6 in)
    Barbettes for main turrets: 250 mm (10 in) above upper deck; 200 mm (7.9 in) between main and upper decks; 40 mm (1.6 in) director tower communication
    Barbettes for secondary armament: 75 mm (3.0 in) above upper deck; 60 mm (2.4 in) director towers

 

Now, sources are confusing on her propulsion because they cite either 160k Shafts or 180k Shafts. The first option would probably give her 32kts and the latter one would've given her 34kts. I like the idea of 34kts.

What I like is that her armor is not all that thick, but it's more effective than Scharnhorst's because of how it defends the boilers better from deck penetrations. Because of how poor her armor values are, I like the idea of giving her speed and stealth as her main defense.

So lets get down to business. How would she fair in-game against her counterpart? Well, that depends. The doctrines for which they were designed are completely different. Scharnhorst was a Commerce Raider and an Answer to the Dunkirk's which an Answer to the Deutchsland class. Not to mention, they were built to help re-arm Germany's Battleship fleet, which was later supplemented with the Bismarck Class.

Design 1047 was designed to combat Japan's fleet of Heavy Cruisers and Light Cruisers because they believed that Japan would save it's capital ships for fighting their American and British counter-parts. Which meant that Japan's march into the Dutch East Indies would be lead by Heavy Cruisers and Light Cruisers. Because of this, they knew their own Cruisers wouldn't be able to fight the more powerful Myoukou, Takao and Mogami class Heavy Cruisers, and instead opted to build a ship that could defend itself from modern 12inch guns, be fast enough to chase down cruisers and murder them, and still be faster than Japanese Fast Battleships that could out-gun them. (The very essence of a Battlecruiser).

A lot of the ship's external design and armament draws inspiration from Scharnhorst, to the point where she looks just like her except for a few distinct differences on the main deck, funnels and super-structure.

Just for reference, this was the only proper large image I could find. But essencially this is what the ship would look like.

So she'll actually be far more of a Heavy Cruiser than Scharnhorst. As for her main-battery:

9x3 283mm Guns, clocking out a Muzzle Velocity of 900m/s (Faster than Scharnhorst's own 880m/s) with the same 2.5 rounds a minute rate of fire (Historically) although this can be buffed so that she has a 22s reload time instead of 24s. Her shells were APC instead of APCBC like Scharnhorst's. Effectively, these had worse penetration against thick armor, but were great against Cruisers. Even the Kongou's would've been given a run for their money with these (Maybe?). I cannot say how much better APC rounds are or worse they are compared to APCBC.

She also has 6x2 setup for her secondaries of 120/45 DP guns. Improving her AAA capacity over Scharnhorst's, but making her anti-ship secondary capacity weaker. Her Normal AA is not all that great, with only 7x2 40mm Bofors and 8x2 20mm Oerlikons, but it'll still be better than Nagato's AA Suite. ( Don't have the details for these guns in-game, if someone can help me, that would be great.)

Her displacement was 30,000 tons when fully loaded. Since HP in-game is calculated with Displacement when the ships were fully-loaded + ship tier, we can have an idea. Of course, we can look at Colorado's hold upgraded HP, it was... 52k? This ship will sit with either 49k or 50k HP in-game. She's most definitely not a brawler. Her secondaries are too weak. But, she can have similar Concealment to KGV, which allows her to move around pretty much un-noticed until she opens fire.

Due to her being Shorter(Height) than Scharnhorst, she'll have a lower range. I place it between 17 and 18km, but with a 34kt top speed that wouldn't be such a major issue. As I see it, there would be two play-styles. An AA centered build and a Stealth-Accuracy Build for her.

My idea is that Tier 7 is lacking a Premium Ship in the Battleship department that plays like a pure Battlecruiser. I mean, we have Hood. But she's in a weird spot and is having an Identity Crisis. Is she a Fast Battleship or a Battlecruiser?

This one, on the other hand, IS a Battlecruiser, and her targets in game would pretty much reflect this: Cruiser and other lightly armored ships. Yes, yes I know, Cruisers are in a tight spot and we have too many Battleships. But it's too hard to come up with a good Cruiser Premium, and hard to balance them (My premiums lack Radar as I don't want to put more Radar ships in Tier 7 until they get reworked.)

But this is my general idea. Let me hear what you guys think, discuss it.

@Pigeon_of_War I want to hear what you guys think as well.

 

Anyways, I cannot respond to this thread till Monday because of Internet issues. So I'll respond again to replies then.

 

~Hunter

[Kingfishercritic]

Shouldn't that be 3x3 for the main battery?

[PrairiePlayer]

1 hour ago, Hunter_Steel said:

9 × 283 mm (11.1 in) guns (3 × 3)

It is.

[Admiral_Thrawn_1]

It does have possibilities I will give it that much, and bofors do make for nice AA which is often a concern at tier 7, although with 11' guns and weaker Secondariesit might be possible to have the ship be a tier 6 though.

[MikeTheRipper12]

A Dutch ship post and @Lert isn't in here yet? Wow. I like the idea. 

[Lert]

22 minutes ago, MikeTheRipper12 said:

A Dutch ship post and @Lert isn't in here yet? Wow. I like the idea. 

It wasn't obvious from the thread title that this was about a Dutch ship.

I've written about 1047 before.

Personally I see her at tier 5 / 6 instead of tier 7. Reasons being no torpedoes, softer armor profile and worse main battery. The shells fly faster but are lighter thus lose more penetration over range, plus the listed ROF is slower than that Scharnhorst has in game. The lack of torpedoes hurts her close range offense and softer armor makes her a more squishy target.

Artist's impression

 

Artist's impression

I could also see her as high / top tier cruiser to be honest with massaged ROF.

Of all the Dutch ships that could be introduced to this game, this one interests me the most because it's just such an interesting design, both historically and in terms of this game - a fast Scharnhorst-lite would certainly be a lot of fun, do well and become a much loved premium, if implemented right. The main problem here is that 1047 was never built. And I doubt WG would go with a paper design for a country's first and possibly only ship, when there are so many built-in-steel ships available to choose from.

<Edit>

AFAIK She was to have a turtleback, albeit a thinner one than Scharnhorst. I'll try and dig up an armor schematic.

As for her engine: The 160k or 180k debate was complicated by the fact that the proposed 180k shp engine wouldn't fit entirely behind armor, meaning that her citadel would have a section with very thin armor if WG was to go this way. The 160k engine would've fitted entirely behind armor. Ofcourse, there's nothing shopping WG fitting a 180k shp engine with a 160k shp citadel size, but that's a balancing factor.

She would also need a name. Here are some historical possibilities:

De Zeven Provincien (The 7 provinces), Brederode, Amsterdam, Vrede (Peace), Gouden Leeuw (Golden Lion), Vrijheid (Freedom), Overwinnaer (Conqueror / victor)

 

 

[MikeTheRipper12]

24 minutes ago, Lert said:

It wasn't obvious from the thread title that this was about a Dutch ship

I know, but you have a super-human, almost feline sense about these things. :P

[Lert]

50 minutes ago, MikeTheRipper12 said:

I know, but you have a super-human, almost feline sense about these things. :P

And like anything feline, it only works when it wants to.

<Edit>

I found the armor schematic:

[Warspawned]

10 hours ago, Lert said:

It wasn't obvious from the thread title that this was about a Dutch ship.

I've written about 1047 before.

Personally I see her at tier 5 / 6 instead of tier 7. Reasons being no torpedoes, softer armor profile and worse main battery. The shells fly faster but are lighter thus lose more penetration over range, plus the listed ROF is slower than that Scharnhorst has in game. The lack of torpedoes hurts her close range offense and softer armor makes her a more squishy target.

Artist's impression

 

 

 

 

Agreed with Lert.  Vs. the current tier V's she'd do well as a Tier V BB or VI CA.  Put those guns and no torps in a VII and it's just kibble.  She seems similar to the Graf Spee in many aspects without torps.

[Hunter_Steel]

Welp, out of all the info and checking, I digress. She'll be a fairly good fit in Tier VI. I'm just worried about all the up-tiering she'd see then.

Like, she'll mostly get Tier 8 games then. And in Tier V, mostly Tier VII games.

~Hunter

[JessieTheKitty]

On 1/26/2018 at 10:45 AM, Hunter_Steel said:

nvm