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T61 (WIP) vs Aigle (Release) - compared

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T61 (WIP) vs Aigle (Release) - compared 

Greetings fellow forumites, in line with recent posts that have drawn heavily on available WOWS official wiki statistics, I present here a critical (but purely intended to be fun) comparison of basic vital statistics of these 2 new tier 6 premium dds. The conclusions I draw, are of course, entirely subjective, and conditional, as T61 is still in development, and we still have no release date. Obviously, these 2 beauties will be competing for our attention, one French, one German (really a Dutch design), one a nightmare for many of you to pronounce (I go with egg-le), the other very easy to pronounce if you can count up to 6. This survey is restricted to publically available statistics, many 'soft' stats are invisible to us, for example, the chance of engine failure, and the precise armour layout. For the same reason, I will not compare consumeables such as smoke (which of course, can and do carry and compensate many ships through their hard statistical weaknesses).

Announcing T61 vs Aigle

298px-T-61_wows_main.jpg vs 298px-Aigle_wows_main.jpg

Survivability

First off, let's take a look at the survivability of these ships, how much damage can they take, and how easily they can avoid taking damage.

Spoiler

 

Health (essential for all ships, how much damage can you take before you sink, usually calulated in WOWS from the amount of water a ship displaces when afloat)

T61 14 700

Aigle 17 000

initial thoughts, Aigle has a silly amount of HP, enough to make light cruisers nervous, (for comparison, La Galissonnière  has 24 800 hp,) andT61 is no slouch herself, she cannot afford  to take as much punishment.

Speed (how fast you can get in and out of hotspots, also makes you harder to track and hit)

T61 35

Aigle 36

Without using consumeables, they are as similar as to be equals, (but Aigle in practice does have access to a speed boost consumeable) What will matter the most for much of battles, is not straight line top speed, but as we will see, speed when manouvreing, turning, wiggling the stern, dodging torps, accelerating speeds. This kind of information is not available on the Wiki, so we can only speculate, based upon EnginePower/displacement ratios and turning radius/rudder shift speed.

EnginePower/displacement ratios (smaller = better)

T61 45000 EP / 14 700 HP = 3.21

Aigle 68 000 EP / 17 000 HP = 4

T61 wins, and on paper, should accelerate to top speed faster than Aigle, and lose or bleed speed less than Aigle when turning. There is no contest here.

Concealment The basic idea for concealment, is to take the height of a ship from waterline to mast top and then to draw and measure a line to the horizon,  not knowing the exact dimensions of these ships, I am taking concealment values on faith alone.

T61 7.02

Aigle 7.74

On paper, T61 is of course, in a much better position to employ stealth tactics, and as we will see, stealth fire torpedoes, something which will be impossible for Aigle until/unless she has a 10 pt captain.

Armour We do not know the exact layout of armour for T61, so this comparison should be taken with plenty of reservations.

T61 min 8 max 16 mm

Aigle min 3 max 16 mm

Aigle is a bigger, higher, longer and more visible target, couplled to her lower minimum armour thickness, can we expect her to be less well protected, and her vital spots, easier to target and hit? 

Manouvreability How nimble are these ladies, can they tango in the caps? Turning circle radius/rudder shift times

T61 600 3.6

Aigle 680 4.1

Don't try to tango with Aigle, this ship will be stepping on your toes, it is one clumsy vessel! Personally, it looks like one more reason why Aigle will be staying out of cap contests. T61 wins!

Survivability summary

T61 = 4/6

Aigle = 2/6

despite having less HP, T61 appears to have greater survivability than Aigle, only player experience and unkown/soft stats will prove this to be right or wrong, of course.

 

Damage potential

Now let's take a look at the more exciting part of our comparison, damage potential. As we have seen in our survivability survey, concealment values are very important for stealth fire of torpedoes.

Spoiler

 

Torpedoes

T61  number of torpedo tubes 2x4 shots per minute 0.9 torpedo reload time (secs) 68 tube turn time 7.2  max dmg hp per torp 13,700 torpedo speed km/h 65  rangekm 8

Aigle number of torpedo tubes 2x3 shots per minute 0.8 torpedo reload time (secs) 77 tube turn time 7.2 max dmg hp per torp 18400 torpedo speedkm/h 57 rangekm 7

Aigle's torps are slower, shorter range, cannot stealth fire (without 10pt capt skills), slower to reload, and she has fewer total torps (6 vs 8). Yes they do more damage than T61s torps, but does that matter if thay can't hit anything?


Guns

Calibre and number of barrels

T61 128 mm 4 x 1

Aigle 139 mm 5 x 1

Range

T61 11.6

Aigle 12.8

Broadside weight 

T61 28kg x 4 = 112

Aigle 40kg x 5 = 200

Rate of fire

T61 4 secs reload or 15 per min x 4 = 60

Aigle 4.8 secs reload or 12.5 per min x 5 = 62.5

Broadside weight per minute 

T61 6720 kg

Aigle 12500 kg

Summary, both hurt, but can Aigle really produce, in ideal circumstances, twice as much hurt as the T61? So far, for raw shell damage, Aigle wins (this is without discussing increased pen of larger calibre guns vs shell velocity), Aigle is winning this comparison, but hold on..

Max dmg per shell

T61 HE 1500 AP 3000

Aigle HE 2000 AP 2600

AP/HE Shell velocity

T61 830 m/s

Aigle 700 m/s

Chance of fire on hit (HE)

T61 6%

Aigle 9%

Max total theoretical dmg per minute

T61 HE 90 000 AP 180 000

Aigle HE 125 000 AP 162 500

While shell velocity can be approximately understood as a result of barrel length and powder charge strength, max dmg per shell is a much more arbitrary figure. But we can assume T61 shells will fly flatter arcs and be far easier to obtain hits with, or to put it simply, T61 has the more accurate guns, and she has more of them! 

 

Summary of damage output 

Which would win in a duel? Personally I think the T61 has the advantage, for both her guns and torpedoes. Aigle captains may prefer to exploit the firestarter buff at 9% with her HE, T61 captains would be wise to exploit AP as much as possible. But others will and are welcome to disagree.

 

Why the delay over the T61? Well of course, the sale of Aigle is one very good reason, to avoid having them both in the shop at the same time. Which is a better overall ship? These statistics cannot answer that question, but in random battles, well rounded vessels are easier to learn to play, while more specialized ships are much more reliant on positioning and favourable circumstances. Which would win a beauty contest, Aigle! Which would win a drag race? Aigle  T61. Which do you prefer? How do they compare to tech tree ships?

Spoiler

Update : I recently encountered a T61 in game, skillfully captained by a well known CC (LWM). I happened to be in a Gaede (badly captained ofc), and attempted a brief duel. Initial impression is that the T61 fought its corner reasonably well, but without the assistance of nearby allies, would have lost due to being outdamaged by Gaede's 150mms vs T61s 128mms, both of us appeared to be firing HE.

 

Edited by nuttybiscuit
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Range is almost a complete non-issue for destroyers these days, unless it's a pure gunboat. Neither of these look like pure gunboats.

 

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The T-61's apparent advantages in concealment and handling are huge, and while an inferior gunboat overall she's a ludicrous torpedo boat with that reload. Aigle looks frustrating with her gun firing arcs, shell trajectories (700m/s base velocity is just unhappy at close range and by the time you're at long range the heavy shells still look like they struggle, because most DD gunnery struggles at 12km).

 

I think you should compare HE/AP DPM rather than KG broadside weight - for instance, T-61 has 90,000 HE DPM vs. 125,000 for Aigle, a rather chunky difference.

There's also a fires/min difference - 62.5 RPM for Aigle at a 9% chance vs 60 RPM for T-61 at a 6% chance.

 

Survivability wise it's not like T-61 is a slouch on HP, and the survivability expert skill is proportionally better for T-61 while not making the ship a bigger target.

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16 minutes ago, mofton said:

I think you should compare HE/AP DPM rather than KG broadside weight - for instance, T-61 has 90,000 HE DPM vs. 125,000 for Aigle, a rather chunky difference.

 

I'll add this.

16 minutes ago, mofton said:

There's also a fires/min difference - 62.5 RPM for Aigle at a 9% chance vs 60 RPM for T-61 at a 6% chance.

 

and this!

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I feel, from the available info, that right now T-61 is the better all around bote. But, as we've seen many times, once the bote gets in the hands of the base, those conclusions can be proven wrong.

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I believe T-61 gets the inferior German smoke, but does get hydro as some form of compensation.

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If I see a French flag on it it's being called a baguette.

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Just now, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

If I see a French flag on it it's being called a baguette.

well, what do you do with a baguette and a frankfurter?

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1 minute ago, nuttybiscuit said:

well, what do you do with a baguette and a frankfurter?

Make a ghetto bratwurst

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I strongly disagree with you saying that T61 has better guns. 

Most DDs T61 is facing have 16mm side armors, that means you always get overpens when shooting AP at DD broadside and bounces when angled. For HE: German 128mm HE is joke, you got extremely low DPM. 

Edited by Plaatduutsch

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10 minutes ago, Plaatduutsch said:

I strongly disagree with you saying that T61 has better guns. 

Most DDs T61 is facing have 16mm side armors, that means you always get overpens when shooting AP at DD broadside and bounces when angled. For HE: German 128mm HE is joke, you got extremely low DPM. 

Interesting. My comments concern overall effectiveness, not only dd vs dd, but your opinion is enriching! The closest dd in game to T61 would be Gaede, but she has 150mm guns, not the 128 mm of T61, surely with the 128mm, overpens will be less likely?.

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4 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Interesting. My comments concern overall effectiveness, not only dd vs dd, but your opinion is enriching! The closest dd in game to T61 would be Gaede, but she has 150mm guns, not the 128 mm of T61, surely with the 128mm, overpens will be less likely?.

German 150mm Guns on DD are okay. You can citadel cruiser with it and deal high alpha damage on DD with HE.

German 128mm Guns AP on DD with 16mm armor = 300 damage per shell at 95% chance. On BB and CAs, they can do good damage, but once they angle you have to switch to garbage HEs that are inferior to Gallant's ...

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Can't beat these types of analysis! (Short of renting a boat before buying)
 

7 hours ago, Plaatduutsch said:

I strongly disagree with you saying that T61 has better guns. 

Most DDs T61 is facing have 16mm side armors, that means you always get overpens when shooting AP at DD broadside and bounces when angled. For HE: German 128mm HE is joke, you got extremely low DPM. 

T-61 has the win with guns as per Nutty's "hurt™" assessment. (German HE, don't fail me now!)

The T-61's torps also have more hurt. (damage x chance of hitting = hurt)

Can the Aigle be compared to another ship, maybe the Leningrad?

I like to use the Leningrad as a close in support DD, like a mini cruiser just tryin' to set everything on fire.

 

 

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7 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Interesting. My comments concern overall effectiveness, not only dd vs dd, but your opinion is enriching! The closest dd in game to T61 would be Gaede, but she has 150mm guns, not the 128 mm of T61, surely with the 128mm, overpens will be less likely?.

Considering my plenty of experience with Z-52, only Gearing, Khabarovsk, and maybe Tashkent are juicy enough for AP when broadside (this seems to disprove the myth that German DDs are more susceptible to AP, as I find that the 128mm AP overpens broadside Z-52s). Everything else is just too thin and the shells fly out the other side before they arm. Given the DDs that T-61 can face, all of which are pretty slim, I expect that the HE will simply be better against other DDs. 128mm AP against slim DDs only has a narrow window in which the target is angled enough for a full penetration but not angled enough to bounce.

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Well still a few more days left for T-61 to be released.

They also announced a "a new thing to do with extra flags" or so for january. Interested to see what that would be.

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The Aigle has better smoke then USN DD's.

 

but that 700m/s oouff ça c'est pas bons! 

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I am running both and getting better results with the T-61.   I think it depends on your play style as to which you’ll like better.   Or you may like both. I’m not crazy about the Aigle.

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