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Destroyers and Caps 101

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In this battle I was asking for support help at B. There is 4 DD's on each team and 3 caps. So 2 Destroyers should go to either b,c on this map or A,B. Everyone went C, like everyone. Now destroyer drivers you play a big part to your team winning. When you see 3 caps you must split up and try to get or defend at least two caps. By not paying attention to your mini map and other players in chat, you are not being a team player and you are not going to see a good game.

This game ended quick with me having the only kill... GG

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Welcome to the current high-tier game meta. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Edited by _Maho_Nishizumi_212

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25 minutes ago, _Maho_Nishizumi_212 said:

Welcome to the current high-tier game meta. It sucks, but it is what it is.

High tier players conga line over to a cap like a lemming train, don't perform or execute any sort of strategy, and get rolled 12 kills to 1? :cap_haloween: No wonder I'm a blueberry at this point. Though with how many battles you've played, I don't believe that logic. I think this is just a case of the team not communicating its intentions. A team that doesn't communicate, especially like the destroyers in this example... is a team doomed for defeat. 

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I notice you’re running Udaloi, which is more or a CL than a DD. That was your first mistake. Going into a cap is not generally a good idea in USSR DDs, unless you’re extremely confident in your evasion skills.

Secondly, another very common misconception is that DDs should always cap as early on in a game as possible. While preferable, yes, doing so, especially without support is a surefire way to get killed off early on in the match with minuscule performance. From a more competitive standpoint, if you want to look at it like that, DDs are most powerful when they’re alive later game. Capping early can very often, more so than not, get you chunked good, if not outright sunk. Its ok to bail on the caps to regroup and redeploy depending on the enemy’s tactics, buts its when the entire team sits back waiting and wasting time is when the steamroll snowball effect starts to build

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As Shimakaze said above, you're not a capping DD. Udaloi is a good fire support but if you try to cap you'll be in a world of pain if a DD that is not russian shows up.

 

Looking at your team position (1st Screen) I think I would have tried B since :

-Most ennemi seems to be heading C

-Someone is capping A ( probably not alone)

But considering the cruiser on G7 line was heading your way, it's probably not a great idea.

 

Now sending 3 DD on a single cap isn't always a bad move but you must be sure you'll be able to secure the cap. If you send 3 DD on a single cap and fail to cap, then your chance of winning will highly decrease simply because the ennemi team would have at least 1 cap secured. Idealy you would be on C supporting you 3 DD to cap and one of your stealth DD go to B and secure it (I think Z-46 would be the best choice since she has hydro).

 

 

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15 hours ago, Sanguedolce said:

When you see 3 caps you must split up and try to get or defend at least two caps.

I MUST? I don't think so Pookie! Game play has changed, and capping isn't something easy anymore; a good example is the "wolf-pack" DD concept of grouping destroyers together in front of some long range cruisers and just smoke up while you breathe fire on anything in your path. The idea of a DD capping alone isn't a good ones these days.

15 hours ago, Sanguedolce said:

This game ended quick with me having the only kill...

Imagine my concern!

6 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

Now sending 3 DD on a single cap isn't always a bad move but you must be sure you'll be able to secure the cap.

Yes, this is the downside to what the new meta is; if you DON'T secure the cap you've wasted time and ships, so be sure you do take the objective.

12 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekamashi said:

While preferable, yes, doing so, especially without support is a surefire way to get killed off early on in the match with minuscule performance.

Very true, and more so lately.

Successful DD capping depends heavily on capping support, something which is sadly and universally lacking in most games, so DD's have decided to support themselves when taking a cap. God, and RNGeezus, help those who help themselves.

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17 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekamashi said:

I notice you’re running Udaloi, which is more or a CL than a DD. That was your first mistake. Going into a cap is not generally a good idea in USSR DDs, unless you’re extremely confident in your evasion skills.

Secondly, another very common misconception is that DDs should always cap as early on in a game as possible. While preferable, yes, doing so, especially without support is a surefire way to get killed off early on in the match with minuscule performance. From a more competitive standpoint, if you want to look at it like that, DDs are most powerful when they’re alive later game. Capping early can very often, more so than not, get you chunked good, if not outright sunk. Its ok to bail on the caps to regroup and redeploy depending on the enemy’s tactics, buts its when the entire team sits back waiting and wasting time is when the steamroll snowball effect starts to build

Yes I know my ship, not the best player but I know what each ship can do. I went to B to support and asked for another destroyer to support me at B and no one did. Caps are a big part, you dont let everything go red right in the start. Not a great idea at all. Sometimes I will contest the cap, because its better to try than to do nothing and loose to cap points.

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At times, but it's always better to allow the cap to go red and keep your ship afloat rather than contesting for a few minutes, dying, costing your team points, then losing the cap anyway, whcih cost more points. Having a dd (you) in the area prevents BB's from pushing in cause of your torps.

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2 minutes ago, _Maho_Nishizumi_212 said:

At times, but it's always better to allow the cap to go red and keep your ship afloat rather than contesting for a few minutes, dying, costing your team points, then losing the cap anyway, whcih cost more points. Having a dd (you) in the area prevents BB's from pushing in cause of your torps.

Well yes and no, this is more about ship positioning and knowing everyone's concealment. I mean someone in a DD should of known my ship doesn't have the best concealment and come over to B for support. You cant have the whole team go to one side of the map on a three cap map. Its just not a high win rate doing that, ill put doubloons on that, that you will only win 30% of your games all going C like in the map above. Now if it was a two cap game then thats another story.

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The vast majority of DD players in randoms have no clue how to work a cap.

No preplanned exit routes or planning to mitigate damage.

These players go on to conclude that capping early is a fools errand.  They end up in poor positions chasing damage, trying to do the randoms version of saving your star.  Often  times they end up dead over a pointless engagement, or so low HP its not safe to try to cap later.

People have a really good learning opportunity coming up tomorrow with the King of the Sea tournament to learn how the best DDs deal with an environment filled with T10 planes, multiple radars, hydro and all the other things people whine about on the forums, while helping their team bring home the win.  Take a look on Twitch.

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45 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

The vast majority of DD players in randoms have no clue

That alone about covers it.  I was in a T8 match earlier tonight in my Maass, and looked over the team lists as usual.  At the exact same instant that I realized only one enemy ship had radar (they had a Chapayev), one of the other DDs on my team starts complaining about all the radar on the other team.  Because obviously any cruiser T7+ has radar.  :Smile_facepalm:

On 1/25/2018 at 8:30 PM, Sanguedolce said:

In this battle I was asking for support help at B. There is 4 DD's on each team and 3 caps. So 2 Destroyers should go to either b,c on this map or A,B. Everyone went C, like everyone.

Not really.  Looking at your screencaps you were obviously still being supported by your division mate in his cruiser, and those two BBs who spawned middle were going to be in position to support as well.  That's absolutely enough to take a stab at B, but given your ship & the fact that nobody else on your team would have a clear shot at anything shooting you, you go in with the mindset that if the cap is contested at all and/or you get detected, you need to retreat immediately.  Others have pointed this out already, but in any destroyer it's far more important to the team as a whole that you survive the first 10 minutes of the battle than it would be to capture a point that the rest of your team isn't really in position to defend...and that would be the best case there.

What I would be much more concerned about at that stage in the game was the BB YOLO'ing his way into A, and the other battleship who spawned A and is probably going to get tore up trying to cross the middle to the rest of your fleet.  With your final battleship and two of your cruisers about to cut themselves off over near C, the fact that all 3 other destroyers went C is literally the least of your problems.

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On 1/26/2018 at 5:21 PM, Sanguedolce said:

Yes I know my ship, not the best player but I know what each ship can do. I went to B to support and asked for another destroyer to support me at B and no one did. Caps are a big part, you dont let everything go red right in the start. Not a great idea at all. Sometimes I will contest the cap, because its better to try than to do nothing and loose to cap points.

Not worth throwing your ship away pointlessly over it, either

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Hey

As someone who has a limited DD experience.  The problems I see are 1st) when DD's decide not to cap early, the enemy team obviously does and it usually put them ahead in points, sometimes as much as 500 points in a matter of a few minutes and then your working from a serious deficit on your team, If those same DD's get killed, then your unlikely to come back and win the game.  The only ones who benefitted was the enemy.  2nd) Selfish gameplay when Cruiser and BB's do not support the DD who is going for a cap early, this is happening more and more these days and it's getting worse and it usually bites them late game because whichever team has DD's late will quite often win.  3rd) It really bugs me when you see your team evenly split between cap points but then you see a cruiser or a BB (the most) will sail from the side they are on, will sail all the way to the opposite side of the map to be over there instead of supporting the people on the side where you spawn, Really?  You sure are a big help to your team and then wonder why your side lost the cap.  4th) The other big issue is ALL of the Camping going on, with people sitting behind islands, not pushing, not supporting and then wondering why 1/2 way through a game, your so far behind.  This is usually BB's and sometime cruisers and it's only getting worse with all of the stuff (deep water torps, RN HE spamming BB, AP bombs) that we have nerf'd the BB's desire to push in, tank damage, be brawlers.  Now we have sissies sitting in the back while many times it's DD's and cruiser doing the work and dying, then wondering how we lost the game.  I rarely see a game where if we don't go for caps sooner than later, that it comes out in a win and once an enemy has those caps then they just circle the wagon and farm damage, your team will lose.  The biggest reason for any loss is due to a lack of teamwork, alack of effort to play the objective of the game and if that's caps, then that's most important.

 

Pete

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Well then, riddle me this, Batman: what does the dedicated Pan-Asian captain (with DWT) do when s/he is the only DD on the team? Not being able to put torps out against enemy destroyers costs him/her in terms of being unable to deny areas or approach paths, deter hiding in smoke, etc. 

1) Get good with guns and hope you can nail the enemy DD if you both end up in the same cap?

2) Div up with a fast-firing light cruiser?

3) Both of the above?

4) Recuse oneself from trying to take caps and simply push ahead as a scout (assuming no carrier to perform that task for you)?

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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Hey

From what I have seen is that either DD's fail to realize the cap objective and don't bother going into contest caps is that we lose because nobody played the cap game early and as ships get wiped out, have no ability to retake the caps that should have been fought for earlier.  Let's face it if the enemy is allowed to take 2 or even all 3 caps early, you can find yourself in a losing game and a huge deficit points game 1/2 way through.  The other problem which is getting much worse is BB camping, sometimes barely out of spawn 1/2 way through a game; I can't tell how many times we lost our cruisers to enemy BB's, sometimes a DD or 2 gets killed and then find we have 4 or 5 nearly full health BB's doing very little to win caps, much less sink anything.  I played a T10 loss the other night and it was ONLY the cruisers and the DD's that scored kills, much less cap.  The selfish game play is getting worse and not doing much to aid our DD, by taking out enemy DD's, cruisers and lastly BB's should be priority.  Too many BB guys seem to feel it's beneath them to kill a DD unless he is a direct threat, but have seen many time they will pass up a radar cruiser in order to shoot some lone BB 1/2 way across the map.  Another thing I see a lot is the BB's who leave their side of the map and sail all the way to the far side of their base before doing anything, which of course then leaves the flank exposed and soon to over run.  I come from BB's and cruiser play but have been working on my DD game; but the game seems to be getting worse in regards to playing the objective, helping cover the DD who does try to cap early by pushing up as a team.  Yes, there are times when you can't get a cap early and the DD has to bail, but at least give him covering fire so he can escape to fight another day.  Let's face it, a DD that's still in good shape at the end of a battle can be a huge asset, more than any BB can.

 

Pete

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10 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Well then, riddle me this, Batman: what does the dedicated Pan-Asian captain (with DWT) do when s/he is the only DD on the team? Not being able to put torps out against enemy destroyers costs him/her in terms of being unable to deny areas or approach paths, deter hiding in smoke, etc. 

1) Get good with guns and hope you can nail the enemy DD if you both end up in the same cap?

2) Div up with a fast-firing light cruiser?

3) Both of the above?

4) Recuse oneself from trying to take caps and simply push ahead as a scout (assuming no carrier to perform that task for you)?

5) Push one of the of the outside caps early and, if detected or challenged, beat a hasty retreat through smoke unless you have considerable support behind you.

You can try this on a center cap, particularly if the other team also has only one DD, but the issue there is that when/if you do get spotted by an enemy DD you leave yourself open to more potential damage from ships sailing for both sides (and cut down on the number of possible escape routes you have).  The key is to avoid engaging that enemy DD until you have a pretty good picture of where the rest of the red (and green) ships are deployed, and of how well your teammates prioritize their targets and focus fire.  If your team starts giving you crap about not pushing the cap, so be it...you'll get your vindication when you end up on top of the leaderboard at the end of the match.

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9 hours ago, Harv72b said:

and of how well your teammates prioritize their targets and focus fire.

Yeah, that's a big if sometimes. One game I played last night ended with me boxed up in smoke, no vision, and four green capital ships crowded way up near our own spawn, half a map away,  with a huge enemy points lead (on which they promptly won not long after I was dead). This also regularly happens when I sail in British cruisers. When it doesn't, though... oh boy, then things go really sweetly.

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3 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Yeah, that's a big if sometimes. One game I played last night ended with me boxed up in smoke, no vision, and four green capital ships crowded way up near our own spawn, half a map away,  with a huge enemy points lead (on which they promptly won not long after I was dead). This also regularly happens when I sail in British cruisers. When it doesn't, though... oh boy, then things go really sweetly.

Hey

This spawn camping meta is getting worse in the last year, even if you call out where your going.  It's really getting old.

 

Pete

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On 2/3/2018 at 8:38 AM, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Well then, riddle me this, Batman: what does the dedicated Pan-Asian captain (with DWT) do when s/he is the only DD on the team? Not being able to put torps out against enemy destroyers costs him/her in terms of being unable to deny areas or approach paths, deter hiding in smoke, etc. 

1) Get good with guns and hope you can nail the enemy DD if you both end up in the same cap?

2) Div up with a fast-firing light cruiser?

3) Both of the above?

4) Recuse oneself from trying to take caps and simply push ahead as a scout (assuming no carrier to perform that task for you)?

I don't play the Pan-Asian myself, but that is a good point along with the fact that most, if not all, IJN DD's will out stop you.

I have had a lot of fun at times teaming up with a Pan-Asian. Makes the soup thick.  

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20 hours ago, Capt_Mexib said:

I don't play the Pan-Asian myself, but that is a good point along with the fact that most, if not all, IJN DD's will out spot you.

No, they won't. The IJN DD stealth advantage is pretty much fiction these days.  With just one or two exceptions, a PA has no more than 100m less concealment than an IJN DD, which is functionally equivalent. Heck, at the upper tiers, there are PAs that OUT-STEALTH IJN ones.  And every single PA has far better smoke plus ludicrously better guns, and the vast majority have better speed and maneuverabilty, to boot.  It's really only the T5 IJN DDs that have a big stealth advantage over their same-tier DD competitors.  IJN torps are certainly a threat, but they are visible a LONG way away, making it easy for a PA DD to dodge - they're really only dangerous if you smoke up and stop, which you SHOULD NOT be doing in any DD without Hydro.

In a 1-on-1, the PA really only is outclassed by the KM destroyers, and the US ones are slightly superior due to the anti-DD torps. 

If you're the only DD on your team as a PA, then you're better off then if you're an IJN one. Because, you still can cap easily with no support if no other DD shows up, and you still can fight an IJN or Russian DD from a position of advantage.  it's really only if you're trying to fight a US or KM DD by yourself where you run into problems.

Edited by EAnybody

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Anymore if friendly ships are not with in a square to a square and one half from the cap, screw em I am not going into the cap to be detected and gunned down by 5 enemy ships that ARE supporting their DD

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47 minutes ago, diddlyv said:

Anymore if friendly ships are not with in a square to a square and one half from the cap, screw em I am not going into the cap to be detected and gunned down by 5 enemy ships that ARE supporting their DD

Hey

I feel your pain.  Not how you want to play, but how you are being forced to play.  Overall team play is getting worse.

 

Pete

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3 hours ago, EAnybody said:

No, they won't. The IJN DD stealth advantage is pretty much fiction these days.  With just one or two exceptions, a PA has no more than 100m less concealment than an IJN DD, which is functionally equivalent. Heck, at the upper tiers, there are PAs that OUT-STEALTH IJN ones.  And every single PA has far better smoke plus ludicrously better guns, and the vast majority have better speed and maneuverabilty, to boot.  It's really only the T5 IJN DDs that have a big stealth advantage over their same-tier DD competitors.  IJN torps are certainly a threat, but they are visible a LONG way away, making it easy for a PA DD to dodge - they're really only dangerous if you smoke up and stop, which you SHOULD NOT be doing in any DD without Hydro.

In a 1-on-1, the PA really only is outclassed by the KM destroyers, and the US ones are slightly superior due to the anti-DD torps. 

If you're the only DD on your team as a PA, then you're better off then if you're an IJN one. Because, you still can cap easily with no support if no other DD shows up, and you still can fight an IJN or Russian DD from a position of advantage.  it's really only if you're trying to fight a US or KM DD by yourself where you run into problems.

My prescription my be colored because I'm trying to reach a goal at tier V, so I'm playing that tier a lot. A 5.4 KM detection radius will do that for you. 

Giving up the ability to torpedo another DD is a big hill to get over. Torpedoing another DD is a low cost, in terms of damage to you, way to do it.

Most of the DD's I clock think that there in a gun fight when really there in a torpedo fight.

But granted, the tier X one looks like a reason to start a new grid.

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I mean someone in a DD should of known my ship doesn't have the best concealment and come over to B for support.

Firstly, NEVER depend on anyone who isn't in a division with you.   "Should have known", well in top ranks maybe, but below rank 7, there are still people who don't know their own concealment range or torp range.

Quote

No, they won't. The IJN DD stealth advantage is pretty much fiction these days.  With just one or two exceptions, a PA has no more than 100m less concealment than an IJN DD, which is functionally equivalent. Heck, at the upper tiers, there are PAs that OUT-STEALTH IJN ones.  And every single PA has far better smoke plus ludicrously better guns, and the vast majority have better speed and maneuverabilty, to boot.  It's really only the T5 IJN DDs that have a big stealth advantage over their same-tier DD competitors.  IJN torps are certainly a threat, but they are visible a LONG way away, making it easy for a PA DD to dodge - they're really only dangerous if you smoke up and stop, which you SHOULD NOT be doing in any DD without Hydro.

In a 1-on-1, the PA really only is outclassed by the KM destroyers, and the US ones are slightly superior due to the anti-DD torps. 

If you're the only DD on your team as a PA, then you're better off then if you're an IJN one. Because, you still can cap easily with no support if no other DD shows up, and you still can fight an IJN or Russian DD from a position of advantage.  it's really only if you're trying to fight a US or KM DD by yourself where you run into problems.

I agree 100% and the only thing I would add is that the tier V Jianwei, while very stealthy, also only has 6.4k torps, less than the tier IV, so it is a bit of a hard grind when people are used to flying mad prior.   Now you face your first radar in tier VII and Hydro and you have to really start to think about what you're doing.

Yes, if you're a DD, try to get to a flanking cap first and as others mentioned, if there is someone contesting, know what bote is and whether you can knife fight or need to bail and return.   As a fan of the PA, I know I'm at a small disadvantage for not being able to torp the other DD, but even when I play other DDs, I almost never count on torps against other DDs, they are a last stand thing for me as most people are still gun adverse at middle tiers.  (most, not all)

Also, as others have pointed out, in a DD, you are hugely more effective later in the game once things thin out a little and people spread.   It is a hard habit for many to break, rushing to cap, smoking up and waiting, which is a fast ticket to becoming a submarine. 

Patience and situational awareness are paramount, your head should be on a swivel as the margins for error in a DD are thin. If you're playing PA line, the style of play changes quite a bit between botes as well, but middle tiers are very much like American gun botes, so I set them up that way, saving longer torp reloads for high value fat BB targets, where even the better maneuvering BBs at later stages have next to no time to react.  Biggest challenge is getting to mid-to-late match, as if you live to that point, you'll see your XP points soar in comparison to charging a cap and smoking early game.  Turret traverse isn't a bad idea if you plan on knife fighting caps as this is one of the weak spots of some PA dds, the guns hit hard but won't hit anything if not aimed at a fast turning VM or RU bote.

Quote

Giving up the ability to torpedo another DD is a big hill to get over. Torpedoing another DD is a low cost, in terms of damage to you, way to do it.

 

Actually, it can be extremely high cost when your torp reload is nearly 80 seconds, you can sink a DD and a half in that time.

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