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outstanding post sir! 

very well thought out and researched. I wish they would model the naval rifles and armor more on what was really installed on the ships. it would give them many more points they could use for balance problems than the ones they use now. 

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WG should so hire you.  Absolutely fantastic write up, well done.

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That's... a lot of text. 

Ultimately, the Roma has a lot of little things wrong that don't, by themselves, render the ship as a disappointment. However, collectively, they seem to needle a great number of people. My guess is, fixing even 1-2 of them would shut everyone up.

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Quite a passion project that you’ve put together. It’s very impressive. 

The forum has convinced me that I’m in the wrong for liking Roma as she is. She’s an awful, ahistorical ship that never should have been released, I guess. :Smile_sad:

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Great write up, lots of work and research.

My only real issue:  First you say that Roma "... is capable of sneaking up almost half of all cruisers she can meet ... ".  OK, that's a good point by itself.  Your next point is that "Cruisers are almost impossible to land citadels on, and difficult to just get regular penetrations."   Then why is the first point a problem?  It doesn't do much good to sneak up on cruisers if all you do is overpen them.

It seems pretty clear that these two traits were designed to balance one another.  Now whether or not that was successful is entirely debatable.

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14 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

The forum has convinced me that I’m in the wrong for liking Roma as she is. She’s an awful, ahistorical ship that never should have been released, I guess. :Smile_sad:

The forum is convinced that *every* ship is completely wrong and utter crap.  Except when they're convinced that they're overpowered and game-breaking.  Often both at once.

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1 hour ago, Phoenix_jz said:

My personal preference is for the GP rounds to be treated as SAP, a secondary AP for Italian battleships when the line eventually arrives. It's entirely based on historical fact for how Italian battleships operated, and creates a unique method of play compared to other battleships - you have to think when it comes down to what ammunition type will work better at a given range. GP is almost always better for beating lighter-armored ships at any range. Palla is more suited to cracking the belts of battleships. However, get close enough, and GP might be a better bet as it can avoid the threat of over penetrating battleship armor.

Given that WG loves having "national flavor" for lines and this would be a flavor with actual historical basis, so I really hope they go with this for the Italian BBs.

Certainly more interesting than completely artificial flavors like German high-tier BBs and mid to high-tier DDs having hydro (or more accurately that other DDs don't have hydro), French everything getting super-speed boost, British CLs getting magic rudders, smoke, heal and no HE, Pan-Asia DDs getting deepwater torps, etc.

Plus it would make for the first BB line where ammo selection is truly essential. On most BBs you can get away with just always firing AP and for British BBs you can get away with being a braindead HE spammer. But if Italian BBs end up with AP and SAP, you'll definitely want to switch to SAP when shooting cruisers in order to not just get all overpens.

1 hour ago, Phoenix_jz said:

Her heavy AA, however…. There, we have an issue. I don’t know why we’ve got a tier VIII running around with 4.0 km ranged AA, especially considering the longer ranges of so many less capable heavy-AA weapons in game.

Give the 90mm/50 a maximum range of 5.0 km. It’s not game-breaking and it only makes sense. When you have weapons like the French 100/45 having 5 km range and the 90/50 has a full kilometer less range in-game... well, :Smile_facepalm:

Or at least the same 4.5km as the German 105mm/65.

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NICE presentation and GREAT explanation. BRAVO 2 U!!!

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The contradiction of stealth on the Roma is that it should never be used to sneak up on cruisers.  Getting that close to cruisers with its current shell state is a bad move for any Roma captain.  Your best bet, and its not a great one, is to switch to HE immediately if you are forced to engage cruisers at close range.  Your AP will only overpen them regardless of their angle otherwise.  

 

And this comes to another point.  The performance stats of the Roma will soon take a dive as cruisers everywhere exploit this weakness to yolo into the nearest Roma for a free kill.

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23 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

Quite a passion project that you’ve put together. It’s very impressive. 

The forum has convinced me that I’m in the wrong for liking Roma as she is. She’s an awful, ahistorical ship that never should have been released, I guess. :Smile_sad:

 

Don't get me wrong; As a ship in the game, I enjoy Roma. I don't consider her a bad ship. However, it's in the context of the actual ship itself that it's representing, where I have my issues. 

 

8 minutes ago, kerensky914 said:

Great write up, lots of work and research.

My only real issue:  First you say that Roma "... is capable of sneaking up almost half of all cruisers she can meet ... ".  OK, that's a good point by itself.  Your next point is that "Cruisers are almost impossible to land citadels on, and difficult to just get regular penetrations."   Then why is the first point a problem?  It doesn't do much good to sneak up on cruisers if all you do is overpen them.

It seems pretty clear that these two traits were designed to balance one another.  Now whether or not that was successful is entirely debatable.

 

The point of her being stealthy is a criticism of the idea of stealthy BBs in general, and Italian battleships so far have set a dangerous precedent. Cesare does the same thing Roma does, after all, with being able to sneak up on cruisers, and she doesn't have the same over penetration issues as Roma. If this is going to be part of the Italian BB flavor (it seems better stealth than the ship's size would suggest is part of an Italian flavor, almost every premium so far having better stealth than they ought to), it's a dangerous precedent, especially when you consider only tier VIII+ will have to worry about over penetration issues (there's no way in hell the Model 1934 is ever being used on a ship below tier VIII).

 

I do see your point - they get away with this on Roma because of the extreme power of her palla - and the cost is a rather frustrating gameplay experience, which is probably one of the bigger issues with Roma as a whole in-game. She's a decent ship in-game as her extreme stealth makes up for many of her other failings - but her various attributes contradict each other. Great TDS and stealth lets you be aggressive, but the pitiful secondary battery and high-powered AP makes her bad at this. These two factors, plus the poor AA, means she's better suited for longer-ranged combat - but her range is short.

One set of attributes here is fairly true to reality. One is pretty much entirely done by WG's whim.

I don't want another Cesare, but there better ways to balance this ship for a more comfortable experience for your average player - ways that better align with what the ship was designed to do. Great stealth at the cost of range run contrary to this - and that's a conscious decision by WG. If you treat Roma like any other ship, you get a concealment & maximum range that's about that of Bismarck/Tirpitz. It's just... awkward.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

This *IS* a buff thread, just with a lot of words.  Roma doesn't need additional help.

Anndddddd in which part did I ask for a buff?

very specifically stated I was not asking for any buffs of any kind.

 

I am simply stating what my qualms were with the ship, in the hope that such a situation would not be repeated whenever Italian BBs as a line arrive.

At no point did I say 'shrink Roma's citadel.'

At no point did I ask for sigma/dispersion buffs.

Nor did I ask for them to buff her AA.

 

If this was a buff thread, than it was a terrible one because I asked for a ton of nerfs as well - Half of which are to this ship's biggest selling points.

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Honestly I would rather see the two types of AP shells...screw HE....HE is for scrubs. 

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10 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

This *IS* a buff thread, just with a lot of words.  Roma doesn't need additional help.

kI5farI.jpg

Ship WR's are only relevant when weighted against the WRs of the players using them, we don't have access to those, only WG internally.

Early WR or newly released ships, especially premiums tend to be skewed higher because of the user base. It's just too early to tell she compares to the other T8 battleship statistically, only Wargaming will have that data currently.

I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions on whether she needs buff or nerf at least for another month with publicly available information.

 

 

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I know I'm only now closing in on 15 games however I've started to accept what has been done.

 

My only thought on the citadel is that the ammunition feeds from the secondaries are being considered. However even in this case the Richelieu has an odd muffin top and skinny bottom to its citadel. So why would both ships have different approaches. Which brings one annoyance. The 152/55 turrets get knocked out way too easily. :p

Stealth is a lost argument. Which means crazy dispersion. As stated elsewhere while stealth is amazing, it must be used to maintain mid range. Getting in close is counter intuitive for the most part. Remain 10+ km. The salvos are frustrating however it is a pretty steady ~30% instead of one missed salvo vs one perfect salvo. My understanding was the main fire director is the calculation point for stealth?

I'd love to see the GP round as it stands right now I don't even switch to HE. Better to take the overpen damage. Which leads to another point. Italian HE was designed to make nice large splinters to cause much soft damage. Yet high HE content shells get the large splash damage AND burn chance. If WG goes with the possible HE round it has the benefit for WG of being a slower round. So would that still be penalized with 1.8 sigma and wide dispersion? 

 

Great post, gib Vittorio Veneto! :Smile_izmena:

 

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20 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

Honestly I would rather see the two types of AP shells...screw HE....HE is for scrubs. 

I actually really like the idea of multiple AP types.  

I did end up picking up the ROMA I don't mind the dispersion, it's not actually that much worse than the Germans, and I've always been able to live with that.   But those overpens!  Shooting cruisers and DDs is an exercise in pure frustration.  Even shooting the all or nothing battleships (North Carolina, Monarch etc)  is frustrating, the only time your getting decent salvo's is against the Germans or RNG makes all the shell magically converge on the belt.

Whether she needs buffs or nerfs, I can't say.  I've not played enough game to form and opinion.   But I do like the OPs ideas,  the HE is utter garbage and the AP is often frustrating to an extreme level (Though alternatively maybe fuse times or fusing threshold could also elevate these issues.

Edited by Veasel

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15 minutes ago, Veasel said:

Ship WR's are only relevant when weighted against the WRs of the players using them, we don't have access to those, only WG internally.

Early WR or newly released ships, especially premiums tend to be skewed higher because of the user base. It's just too early to tell she compares to the other T8 battleship statistically, only Wargaming will have that data currently.

I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions on whether she needs buff or nerf at least for another month with publicly available information.

 

 

Oh, there's PLENTY of people already going around demanding buffs for Roma, even those going flat out lying and saying she's doing terribly.  A quick look at stats across the the servers show she's doing very well.  I agree, the stats need time to average out, but the floodgates have already opened with buff demands for this ship.  She doesn't need it.  People really just want a Tier VIII Caesar when the game doesn't need a repeat of that.

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1 minute ago, Veasel said:

I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions on whether she needs buff or nerf at least for another month with publicly available information.

WG would probably prefer 3 months, and they've proven repeatedly that they don't change premiums unless they have no choice - they'd rather just take it off sale permanently. :shrug:

21 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

The point of her being stealthy is a criticism of the idea of stealthy BBs in general, and Italian battleships so far have set a dangerous precedent.

I wouldn't mind it if WG just set an arbitrary minimum visibility for BBs of, say, 14km?  (just a random distance, maybe it's larger)  Take all the skills and camo you want, but it never goes below that cap. 

28 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

Cesare does the same thing Roma does, after all, with being able to sneak up on cruisers, and she doesn't have the same over penetration issues as Roma.

True, but she does have other issues - penetration issues against higher-tier BBs especially.  But your point is well-made.

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