Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
megadeux

A suggestion to reduce surface ship-CV skill disparity.

19 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles

First of all, an explanation for the title; I am not suggesting that CVs are more or less skilled then surface ship captains, I am suggesting, however, that CVs have a massive edge in practice and skill compared to a surface ship when it comes to the engagement between them. What I mean is this, a surface ship has to actively fight a CV maybe every 30-70 games, a CV does the same every single time they play. That results in a massive skill discrepancy, when a CV player has fought surface ships hundreds of times, naturally they are adept in it. A surface ship gets no such practice, only very rarely fighting a CV, often with disastrous results, since they literally have had hundreds of more games to practice an engagement like this.

My suggestion is this, add a bot CV to every random team a CV is not in (tier 4+ of course) bot CVs are notoriously bad, so no one will have their life ruined by a nuke, but it does give more value to AA builds and may boost a surface ships anti CV experience. This is not, obviously, going to give the same experience as having a real CV player in every game, but I think it will help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
92
[BNKR]
Members
674 posts
1,254 battles

I'm only at tier 4, but I'm having increasing success against the CVs late battle when I find them. I just stay out of zoom (especially when the bombers and torp planes approach) and am dodging salvos quite well. When I get to a certain closeness, I just aim and fire without zoom altogether so I can keep an eye on the planes the entire time. I'm having trouble understanding how the CV can control the engagement other than with planes. Perhaps it's a higher tier mechanic you are talking about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
1 minute ago, BullpupWOT said:

I'm only at tier 4, but I'm having increasing success against the CVs late battle when I find them. I just stay out of zoom (especially when the bombers and torp planes approach) and am dodging salvos quite well. When I get to a certain closeness, I just aim and fire without zoom altogether so I can keep an eye on the planes the entire time. I'm having trouble understanding how the CV can control the engagement other than with planes. Perhaps it's a higher tier mechanic you are talking about?

High tier CVs are significantly more powerful, have vast amounts of experience and a much more powerful attack, right now at tier 4 you are up against the equivalent of an cruiser only firing AP and sailing broadside. But what I'm referring to is the practice discrepancy, CVs get far more experience killing surface ships with planes then surface ships have engaging planes or mitigating damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
92
[BNKR]
Members
674 posts
1,254 battles
Just now, megadeux said:

High tier CVs are significantly more powerful, have vast amounts of experience and a much more powerful attack, right now at tier 4 you are up against the equivalent of an cruiser only firing AP and sailing broadside. But what I'm referring to is the practice discrepancy, CVs get far more experience killing surface ships with planes then surface ships have engaging planes or mitigating damage.

I suspected as much...I cannot add anything productive to your thread at this point then. Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
55 minutes ago, BullpupWOT said:

I suspected as much...I cannot add anything productive to your thread at this point then. Cheers

Well, I suppose not, cheers to you as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
853
[HINON]
[HINON]
Members
3,803 posts
4,224 battles

That's an interesting proposition. I, personally, think it would work.

 

The other thing I'd like to see is more CVs in a single battle to reduce the impact of a bad CV vs a strong CV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
14 minutes ago, Carrier_Lexington said:

That's an interesting proposition. I, personally, think it would work.

 

The other thing I'd like to see is more CVs in a single battle to reduce the impact of a bad CV vs a strong CV.

Well I think the impact a CV has is greatly amplified by the fact that most teams don't know how to adequately counter a CV, not only that, but you only have 1 CV, so most matches are like the nightmare scenario where you only have 1 ship of a type, and one team can have a good one, and the other one a bad one, and the outcome is determined by that type. As a whole, I don't think CVs are broken as a type or OP, but they are very rare, and often are the only ones on their team.

Edited by megadeux

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles

Now that I think about it, the suggestion won't work very well unless bot CV AI was increased.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
294
[O7]
[O7]
Beta Testers
1,252 posts
7,648 battles

Some CV players are just so atrocious that even a thousand battles isn't enough practice. Even then if your not an AA ship or AA built then there is little you can do to actually fight a CV besides stick with other players that are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
29 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

Some CV players are just so atrocious that even a thousand battles isn't enough practice. Even then if your not an AA ship or AA built then there is little you can do to actually fight a CV besides stick with other players that are.

I'm not talking about CV vs CV skill, I'm talking about CV to ship combat. CV players get vastly more experience then surface ships in this regard. Which means that a good CV player basically ROFL stomps surface ships because the surface ships never really get the chance to learn how to mitigate damage from a CV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4
[SYN]
Members
53 posts
2,529 battles

This is definitely a good point. I'm not sure about the bot plan to fix it, as adding bots to a PvP game mode seems a little off, but the surface ships not knowing how to react to a CV is definitely true. As a CV player, I'd like to think I do relatively well against CV attention. Just the other day a Ranger sent three strikes after my Myoko(which has awful AA). Dodged it all, sunk by surface ships. But I've seen many other players in the same situation by sunk by the CV at the first strike. People just don't know how to react. (Pro tip: turn in, not out. We CVs hate that)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
1 minute ago, Alionar13 said:

This is definitely a good point. I'm not sure about the bot plan to fix it, as adding bots to a PvP game mode seems a little off, but the surface ships not knowing how to react to a CV is definitely true. As a CV player, I'd like to think I do relatively well against CV attention. Just the other day a Ranger sent three strikes after my Myoko(which has awful AA). Dodged it all, sunk by surface ships. But I've seen many other players in the same situation by sunk by the CV at the first strike. People just don't know how to react. (Pro tip: turn in, not out. We CVs hate that)

Don't have enough CV players in game right now, which is why there is this problem in the first place, if there were more CVs bots wouldn't be necessary, it's really just a half fix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,843
[O7]
Supertester, Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
10,651 posts
7,548 battles

I disagree that simply having experience is what would fix CV vs surface ship interaction. There are definitely things that can help in that but unless a ship processes enough AA to defend itself a CV can outplay it and the only hope of the surface ship is that the CV screws up. An example is spawning as a Colorado on a large map, the Colorado is the slowest BB from tier 7 up and it could spawn on a flank with no AA help and its too slow to reposition before the first strike of a CV. Enduring more strikes is not going to make it less frustrating every time you are in that situation where there is very little you can do to help yourself and are completely dependent on teammates and the incompetence of the enemy. 

 

Its also on the CV side as well, a low tier CV has a very had time striking ships 1-2 tiers higher than it because of the AA levels. Every other ship at least can take advantages of mistakes but a NC could play completely wrong and win as long as they have sufficient AA against lower tier CVs. So I think there needs to be more work done and have made suggestions about this as well. There is very little counter play between CVs and surface ships, either AA is too strong or panic is around so the strike gets wasted or the surface ship is at the mercy of the enemy CV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
15 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I disagree that simply having experience is what would fix CV vs surface ship interaction. There are definitely things that can help in that but unless a ship processes enough AA to defend itself a CV can outplay it and the only hope of the surface ship is that the CV screws up. An example is spawning as a Colorado on a large map, the Colorado is the slowest BB from tier 7 up and it could spawn on a flank with no AA help and its too slow to reposition before the first strike of a CV. Enduring more strikes is not going to make it less frustrating every time you are in that situation where there is very little you can do to help yourself and are completely dependent on teammates and the incompetence of the enemy. 

 

Its also on the CV side as well, a low tier CV has a very had time striking ships 1-2 tiers higher than it because of the AA levels. Every other ship at least can take advantages of mistakes by a NC could play completely wrong and win as long as they have sufficient AA. So I think there needs to be more work done and have made suggestions about this as well. There is very little counter play between CVs and surface ships, either AA is too strong or panic is around so the strike gets wasted or the surface ship is at the mercy of the enemy CV.

From my personal experience, there is a fair amount of counterplay, it's just less obvious. A: playing a notoriously high AA ship means that you and those around you are unlikely to be hit. Even if you don't AA spec. 

B: staying near a friendly AA ship reduces the likeliness of a hit.

C: constantly moving, a CV prefers to hit camping or reversing ships rather then moving ones. 

The case you mentioned is fairly specific, but that is an unfortunate instance in which the spawn position and ship characteristics work against the ship. However I think more experience would help the player base, for instance, DDs often drop speed and pop smoke when the see TBs, which often results is a nuke, when they should be turning back to the fleet and moving at full speed. Even slower BBs can dodge a drop, I've seen it be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
405
[FAE]
Members
2,115 posts
2,500 battles

This is a decent idea. 

 

The main issue is that nowadays literally no one understand HOW to play against CV. People used to literally do these things in 2016. Learn to sail in formation with a cruiser for AA cover. Plan attack routes where you could dodge next to a cruiser for AA cover. Move as a concerted force BBs + CAs. Nowadays, BBs move alone. All they care about Cruisers is that they can kill them in one shot. (Which also leads to Cruisers not wanting to push much understandably). 
CAs and Clevelands used to also legit camp next to their CV to avoid CV snipes. Nowadays, even I'd call that bad form: Better to have the CV move with the fleet, and use the cruiser for damage. 

 

What this game really needs is the ability to unequally, using skill, move your AA bubble, like extend it out towards 1 side more than the other side. Or be able to send your AA plane to fight for a nearby ally within 10km. 

More: that AA shouldn't be a bubble, but be more effective towards each side. The AA broadside of the ship should do more damage to incoming planes from that side.  And AA on the opposite side of the ship that can't fire through the ship shouldn't even be able to attack planes coming from the other side. 

Edited by BlailBlerg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
23 minutes ago, BlailBlerg said:

This is a decent idea. 

 

The main issue is that nowadays literally no one understand HOW to play against CV. People used to literally do these things in 2016. Learn to sail in formation with a cruiser for AA cover. Plan attack routes where you could dodge next to a cruiser for AA cover. Move as a concerted force BBs + CAs. Nowadays, BBs move alone. All they care about Cruisers is that they can kill them in one shot. (Which also leads to Cruisers not wanting to push much understandably). 
CAs and Clevelands used to also legit camp next to their CV to avoid CV snipes. Nowadays, even I'd call that bad form: Better to have the CV move with the fleet, and use the cruiser for damage. 

 

What this game really needs is the ability to unequally, using skill, move your AA bubble, like extend it out towards 1 side more than the other side. Or be able to send your AA plane to fight for a nearby ally within 10km. 

More: that AA shouldn't be a bubble, but be more effective towards each side. The AA broadside of the ship should do more damage to incoming planes from that side.  And AA on the opposite side of the ship that can't fire through the ship shouldn't even be able to attack planes coming from the other side. 

Interesting idea, although I don't know if it could be implemented. I do like it though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,843
[O7]
Supertester, Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
10,651 posts
7,548 battles
13 minutes ago, megadeux said:

From my personal experience, there is a fair amount of counterplay, it's just less obvious. A: playing a notoriously high AA ship means that you and those around you are unlikely to be hit. Even if you don't AA spec. 

B: staying near a friendly AA ship reduces the likeliness of a hit.

C: constantly moving, a CV prefers to hit camping or reversing ships rather then moving ones. 

The case you mentioned is fairly specific, but that is an unfortunate instance in which the spawn position and ship characteristics work against the ship. However I think more experience would help the player base, for instance, DDs often drop speed and pop smoke when the see TBs, which often results is a nuke, when they should be turning back to the fleet and moving at full speed.

I am well aware of the tactics that can help a surface ship that is playing against CVs in surface ships. Things like sticking close to teammates, turning into torpedo bombers, building AA, bringing ships with strong AA, etc. However that does not change my argument, there are fundamental issues in CV vs surface ship play beyond simple inexperience and it exists for both sides. There is very little option for counter play compared other ship class matchups and there are plenty of specific examples I cant mention where there exists very few options for a surface ship besides hoping and praying the CV screws up. How much does turning help against GZ AP bombs that drop in a tiny circle, even when autodropping? Or how about the Des Moines on my team last week 3 km away from my Iowa that got devistriked by a Midway AP bombs? Even the example I already mentioned, its not just specific to the Colorado but as well to any other slow (as in 25 knots or slower) BB that can get into tier 8+ matches which includes most tier 6 BBs. Whats worse is that half the anti CV tactics involve trying to make it easier for the CV to make a mistake by giving the CV player less time to react either by having stronger AA so the planes fall faster or maneuvering to decrease the intercept time. 

Quote

Even slower BBs can dodge a drop, I've seen it be done.

Was that the skill of the BB player or the the fault of the CV player making a poor drop? I played the CV tiers that have slow BBs and know exactly how simple it is to drop on one if you have the time to set the drop up, if you dont have the time to set the drop up then its the CVs fault for either picking a poor target or not reacting quick enough. 

 

Basically what I am saying is that the CV vs surface ship interaction is not healthy and more of it wont fix the fundamental issues. AA is too simple and allows very little room for a CV to out play ships with strong AA, DF is absurd and as bad as radar in what it does, and the ship that holds all the cards without strong AA or panic around is the CV. Those are very real issues that experience wont solve. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
262
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,338 battles
23 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I am well aware of the tactics that can help a surface ship that is playing against CVs in surface ships. Things like sticking close to teammates, turning into torpedo bombers, building AA, bringing ships with strong AA, etc. However that does not change my argument, there are fundamental issues in CV vs surface ship play beyond simple inexperience and it exists for both sides. There is very little option for counter play compared other ship class matchups and there are plenty of specific

Was that the skill of the BB player or the the fault of the CV player making a poor drop? I played the CV tiers that have slow BBs and know exactly how simple it is to drop on one if you have the time to set the drop up, if you dont have the time to set the drop up then its the CVs fault for either picking a poor target or not reacting quick enough. 

 

Basically what I am saying is that the CV vs surface ship interaction is not healthy and more of it wont fix the fundamental issues. AA is too simple and allows very little room for a CV to out play ships with strong AA, DF is absurd and as bad as radar in what it does, and the ship that holds all the cards without strong AA or panic around is the CV. Those are very real issues that experience wont solve. 

I'm well aware of the issues in CV play, however that's been extensively discussed and talked over. I'm trying to look at a separate issue, which is that players do not get the practice or experience to experiment with separate counterplays. As an example, to counter a DD you need to know how DDs act, the capability of your ship to deal with that type, and a general plan of action formed from experience. Players get the opportunity to test their builds and try to develop an idea on how to counter a CV very rarely, CVs get to figure out how to counter the surface ship every single game.

Ships interact with all the other types constantly, and that helps maintain balance. I can't develop a counter to a type I almost never get to interact with.

I'm not trying to suggest a cure all, just trying to point out what I think is an issue when it comes to this class. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,208 posts
4,043 battles
6 hours ago, megadeux said:

First of all, an explanation for the title; I am not suggesting that CVs are more or less skilled then surface ship captains, I am suggesting, however, that CVs have a massive edge in practice and skill compared to a surface ship when it comes to the engagement between them. What I mean is this, a surface ship has to actively fight a CV maybe every 30-70 games, a CV does the same every single time they play. That results in a massive skill discrepancy, when a CV player has fought surface ships hundreds of times, naturally they are adept in it. A surface ship gets no such practice, only very rarely fighting a CV, often with disastrous results, since they literally have had hundreds of more games to practice an engagement like this.

My suggestion is this, add a bot CV to every random team a CV is not in (tier 4+ of course) bot CVs are notoriously bad, so no one will have their life ruined by a nuke, but it does give more value to AA builds and may boost a surface ships anti CV experience. This is not, obviously, going to give the same experience as having a real CV player in every game, but I think it will help.

I agree and have suggested it before. But instead of every game make a flat 25% chance if no cv is in que

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×