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JackBinary

In response to Dev Q&A 6.15; A letter from a disgruntled IJN DD main

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First and foremost, you only answered a single relevant question, and that irks me.

Secondly, in response to that specific question's answer, to quote the esteemed lawyer, Vinny Gambini: "Everything that man just said is bull****."

Seriously WG, you're making it increasingly obvious that you not only don't play your own game, you don't give a **** about those who do.

Japanese torpedoes are easily the easiest torpedoes to dodge. Sure, they're fast and hard hitting, but you have so much prior notice that the only time in recent history that I've died to Japanese torpedoes has been when I was sitting still in smoke, in an Akizuki (and we all know how fast and maneuverable that ship is!). And I'm not even a very good player in the first place!

Your player base has done the math ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13s6LtFslxFF_p7P7Yu671zlur8Gwc1niAN03wJnDj6U/pubhtml?gid=1887314214&single=true ) and high tier IJN torpedoes have reaction times slower than carrier based torpedoes. It's honestly sad that you claim that this is a "fair trade off."

Even if the torpedoes were balanced in their current state, even if it weren't the case that the community agrees that american and german destroyers are better torpedo boats than the IJN, Why the hell do we have to trade worse guns for on par torpedoes?

if the torpedoes are equal to their counterparts, why aren't the guns? Why is it that in almost every situation, if torpedo power were equal, an american or German destroyer would be better than a Japanese one, on the merit of gun DPM alone?

On the topic of DPM, why do Japanese torpedoes have over twice the rearm of German torpedoes, while their damage is only ~20% more?

 

TLDR:
Why do you insist that it's a "fair trade-off" to make Japanese torpedoes the easiest to dodge in the game, while at high tiers USN and German torpedoes aren't even that far behind in speed or damage?

Even if it were a "fair trade-off" why should they be worse in every other aspect?

I don't want half baked answers. I want to be told exactly why you think that the IJN DDs are in an acceptable state. I want to have every last detail explained to me, cause I'm not sure you understand it yourself.

You're the devs of this game, WG. Act like it.

 

The following is posted further down in the thread by me, and is a follow up to this post:

image.png.223d0f5f996f50309efa7bdd84fe3b74.png

I'm a computer engineering student, so I pride myself in showing my math, which is why I didn't only show my highlighted numbers, but all the numbers they're sourced from.

The highlighted rows are what make destroyers effective, in my opinion. Gun DPM, HP, and Turret rotation speed dictate the victor of a knife fight, while torpedo DPM dictates effectiveness against larger ships.

I would have preferred to multiply the torpedo DPM by the torpedo hitrate (since we all know that raw DPM is not actually indicative of torpedo performance, considering travel time to target, as well as detection range), but Warships today was down while I was writing this post, so you'll have to make due with an alternate formula of dividing the DPM by the reaction times provided in the link in the OP.

As you can clearly see, Shimakaze would lose to any other destroyer of it's tier in a gunfight. We all know this, and the math shows it.
Yet at the same time, other destroyers are more effective at taking down capital ships. While they lack the alpha, they have a much higher chance of hitting their target (just over half the reaction time).

Edited by JackBinary
Followup
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Actually, after craptalking a lot about IJN DDs being low performance. I actually did the stats on avg win rate of all DDs of the same tier (using data from wows numbers).

 

IJN DD's win rate is within the standard deviation. It's statistically fine. The main reason for frustration regarding  playing IJN is the really their inability to do anything in a tight spot, such as knife fighting another DD. There's a big thread on my suggestion to help with that little bit of short coming. 

 

 

Japan 443 810 48.57%
Japan 137 819 48.75%
Japan 475 447 48.75%
Japan 686 672 49.17%
Japan 1 509 628 49.46%
Japan 1 403 185 49.48%
Japan 1 183 315 49.50%
Japan 754 629 49.56%
Japan 683 036 49.75%
Japan 1 234 605 49.88%
Japan 913 180 50%
Japan 413 671 51%
Japan 359 593 51.02%
Japan 2 709 692 51.12%
Japan 247 477 51.15%
Japan 1 973 523 51.25%
Japan 822 775 51.86%
Japan 828 615 52.70%
Japan 528 435 54.26%
Japan 375 679 54.63%
Japan 1 100 770 55.27%
Japan 199 025 55.55%
Japan 155 881

56.13%

 

 

The SD for ALL DDs are 3% ish. So IJN DDs are doing fine. Also the lowest win rate DD is no longer an IJN DD like a year ago. People are starting to catch onto the correct meta at playing IJN DDs. My Mutsuki write up, given the new stats on IJN DDs now, is outdated.

Edited by NeutralState
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1 minute ago, NeutralState said:

Actually, after craptalking a lot about IJN DDs being low performance. I did the stats on avg win rate of all DDs of the same tier.

 

IJN DD's win rate is within the standard deviation. It's statistically fine.

I like how statistical evidence is down voted by people that personally /feel/ differently.  :Smile_teethhappy:

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8 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Actually, after craptalking a lot about IJN DDs being low performance. I actually did the stats on avg win rate of all DDs of the same tier (using data from wows numbers).

 

IJN DD's win rate is within the standard deviation. It's statistically fine. 

 

The SD for ALL DDs are 3% ish. So IJN DDs are doing fine. Also the lowest win rate DD is no longer an IJN DD like a year ago. People are starting to catch onto the correct meta at playing IJN DDs. My Mutsuki write up, given the new stats on IJN DDs now, is outdated.

uvkLwwi.jpg

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Give them the same stats as german/American torps and then lower the detection then.

I mean it makes the ships completely lack variety, but when 3 torps does over 70% of a BBs hp, its seriously not fun.

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Just now, Akeno017 said:

Give them the same stats as german/American torps and then lower the detection then.

I mean it makes the ships completely lack variety, but when 3 torps does over 70% of a BBs hp, its seriously not fun.

Nah, US/German destroyers will still get to be better due to their greatly superior guns.

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Just now, Akeno017 said:

Give them the same stats as german/American torps and then lower the detection then.

I mean it makes the ships completely lack variety, but when 3 torps does over 70% of a BBs hp, its seriously not fun.

As opposed to 3 BB shells, that get launched every 30 seconds, that can do the same to my Des Moines?

The only time I have problems with torps in my BBs is when I have to bow tank. I'm predictable and an easy hit.

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12 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

Nah, US/German destroyers will still get to be better due to their greatly superior guns.

No.  Not even close. hyperbole like that doesn't win you any favors.

 

Anyways, i have said it before.  I think the high tier IJN DDs could use a torp reload buff.   knock off 10-15 seconds off the reload time. (this is after all the other skills/modules are taken into account)

 

fubuki needs to be able to stealth torp when its stock.  same for the hatsu if it cant stealth torp stock(dont remember off hand)

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25 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

Give them the same stats as german/American torps and then lower the detection then.

I mean it makes the ships completely lack variety, but when 3 torps does over 70% of a BBs hp, its seriously not fun.

I'm sure that cruiser players will have a lot to say about how fun it is for a couple of BB shells to completely obliterate their ship.

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No offense to any... but over 4k battles.. I have developed a "bias" towards the average/below average player when it comes to these IJN dd's.  It is my obvservation and many others that it is fairly common to see what (good players) refer to as "useless" IJN dd players ignoring any cap contesting and sailing to the border of the map to launch 20km torps.  Then proceeding to do nothing for the next 2 minutes to rinse and repeat.  It is my opinion that a lot of average/below average players gravitate towards IJN dd's so that they can have a more "relaxed game" - by simply avoiding cap contention and gunfights with other dd's, they can sail to the border and try to "flank" with torpedoes while staying unspotted and hoping to see large torpedo dmg numbers appear.  Generally speaking, this doesn't help win games - but I presume is a bit more relaxed - than say playing a Z52 or Gearing - or the Gun boat variants (that also struggle to contest of Khaba/Groz).    

For what it's worth, my 2 out of 3 highest dmg DD's are IJN - Shimakaze (75k avg) and Yugomo (73k avg).  They are situational ships sure, but if you connect with torps they are godmode.  They are simply inconsistent boats for the average player and in my opinion require more skill (being useful while staying alive)to achieve consistent results.  Which I know sounds a bit weird, considering the whole saying "Wall of Skill."

In order to have an impact in winning the match, you have to play smart.  You need to still be a teamplayer which involves scouting, cap contention, and smart torp volleys.  You need to have map awareness and knowledge of enemy team composition as to avoid awkward gun fights.  Learn how to play Yugomo and bully other dd's out of a cap with your concealment.  Scout with support. etc..

Play Yugomo TRB and I can assure you that your map awareness will increase dramatically.  Play an IJN dd (aside from AKizuki) and you learn when to pick gun fights.  The ships are situationally good.. but not if your a bad player.  No ship is good.. if your a bad player.  Maybe Z52, Gearing, Fletcher are better at cap contesting....than say Shima, but that's not to say that Khaba, Groz, YueYang are not situational as well.  Yes, the hybrid DD's are generally considered better.. but that's because they are good at both.. torps and guns..not one or the other.. which means more consistency.  Bring shima and get a 5 battleship game - you are salivating..  bring shima into a 5 dd game and you turn into a support dd.  Welcome to randoms.  

TLDR:  Many below average players play IJN DD's because its more relaxed and expect they should be able to ignore objectives and teamplay by sailing to the edge to "flank" and rack up huge damage and when that doesn't happen - they come to the forum to complain.  

** An extra tidbit..  if more CV's were present at high tier.. there would be less hydro - which means torpedoboats become stronger.  Rock, paper, scissors.  More CV's = Less Hydro = better for Shima.  

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30 minutes ago, Simers72 said:

** An extra tidbit..  if more CV's were present at high tier.. there would be less hydro - which means torpedoboats become stronger.  Rock, paper, scissors.  More CV's = Less Hydro = better for Shima.  

My friend, you seem to forget that plane spotting is a thing! When a CV spots a DD, especially a torpedo-focused DD, the entire enemy team knows where that DD is and where to expect torpedos from. On top of that, most torpedo based destroyers don't have the AA to shoot down a single high tier plane, let alone a whole squad. On top of that, when a plane spots torpedos, they are spotted for the ENTIRE duration of their existence. So if a CV sends a squad of planes to, say, a TRB Yuugumo, (That's how it's spelled, by the way. Take note.) the CV can permaspot the DD, and the DD cannot hide from the planes since it has no smoke, and it cannot shoot down the planes since it has no AA. It also cannot shoot torpedos since they will be instantly spotted forever. However, hydro has downtimes, and will not spot torpedos as they are launched from a DD, and will also not permaspot a DD the entire game, getting it killed. Just not going to mention the rest of your reply, and how IJN DDs are regarded by most good players as statistically inferior to any of their counterparts.

Edited by BrohemianRhapsody
Clarification.

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10 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

No.  Not even close. hyperbole like that doesn't win you any favors.

The hyperbole is claiming that guns with half the rate of fire, all other stats being the same, are "just as good" despite their obvious drawback.

 

You're going to bring up the arcs, which does nothing to help the IJN at the ranges they get detected by other destroyers at-- especially USN with similar detection ranges who hold all the advantages at close range.

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21 minutes ago, Simers72 said:

No offense to any... but over 4k battles.. I have developed a "bias" towards the average/below average player when it comes to these IJN dd's.  It is my obvservation and many others that it is fairly common to see what (good players) refer to as "useless" IJN dd players ignoring any cap contesting and sailing to the border of the map to launch 20km torps.  Then proceeding to do nothing for the next 2 minutes to rinse and repeat.  It is my opinion that a lot of average/below average players gravitate towards IJN dd's so that they can have a more "relaxed game" - by simply avoiding cap contention and gunfights with other dd's, they can sail to the border and try to "flank" with torpedoes while staying unspotted and hoping to see large torpedo dmg numbers appear.  Generally speaking, this doesn't help win games - but I presume is a bit more relaxed - than say playing a Z52 or Gearing - or the Gun boat variants (that also struggle to contest of Khaba/Groz).    

For what it's worth, my 2 out of 3 highest dmg DD's are IJN - Shimakaze (75k avg) and Yugomo (73k avg).  They are situational ships sure, but if you connect with torps they are godmode.  They are simply inconsistent boats for the average player and in my opinion require more skill (being useful while staying alive)to achieve consistent results.  Which I know sounds a bit weird, considering the whole saying "Wall of Skill."

In order to have an impact in winning the match, you have to play smart.  You need to still be a teamplayer which involves scouting, cap contention, and smart torp volleys.  You need to have map awareness and knowledge of enemy team composition as to avoid awkward gun fights.  Learn how to play Yugomo and bully other dd's out of a cap with your concealment.  Scout with support. etc..

Play Yugomo TRB and I can assure you that your map awareness will increase dramatically.  Play an IJN dd (aside from AKizuki) and you learn when to pick gun fights.  The ships are situationally good.. but not if your a bad player.  No ship is good.. if your a bad player.  Maybe Z52, Gearing, Fletcher are better at cap contesting....than say Shima, but that's not to say that Khaba, Groz, YueYang are not situational as well.  Yes, the hybrid DD's are generally considered better.. but that's because they are good at both.. torps and guns..not one or the other.. which means more consistency.  Bring shima and get a 5 battleship game - you are salivating..  bring shima into a 5 dd game and you turn into a support dd.  Welcome to randoms.  

TLDR:  Many below average players play IJN DD's because its more relaxed and expect they should be able to ignore objectives and teamplay by sailing to the edge to "flank" and rack up huge damage and when that doesn't happen - they come to the forum to complain.  

** An extra tidbit..  if more CV's were present at high tier.. there would be less hydro - which means torpedoboats become stronger.  Rock, paper, scissors.  More CV's = Less Hydro = better for Shima.  

Yuugumo and Shimakaze are also the only two IJN DDs to receive a detection range buff to their torpedoes since the first detection range change over 2 years ago. I love my Yuugumo simply because hitting with torps in Yuugumo feels more consistent than in HSF Harekaze or Akatsuki.

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36 minutes ago, Simers72 said:

** An extra tidbit..  if more CV's were present at high tier.. there would be less hydro - which means torpedoboats become stronger.  Rock, paper, scissors.  More CV's = Less Hydro = better for Shima.  

But then again, CVs spot torpedoes and Unicum CVs can keep a DD permanently spotted for large lengths of a battle.  Something tells me I'd much rather have to deal with a bunch of cruisers running hydro than a Tier 10 CV...

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1 hour ago, JackBinary said:

 

TLDR:
Why do you insist that it's a "fair trade-off" to make Japanese torpedoes the easiest to dodge in the game, while at high tiers USN and German torpedoes aren't even that far behind in speed or damage?

 

I can't take you seriously when you state that the Damage is not far off. 

The only outiller is the Fletcher. 

The Gearing / Benson / Z-23 / Z-46 / Z-52  are inferior torpedo boats plain and simple. 

The only advantage the KM DD's have over the IJN Is torpedo reload, which allow them to dot stack with much more efficiency.

You keep talking about the torpedo detection rating. Well .3 does not make up for 

 

- a 58 660 damage difference between 10 Gearing torpedoes and 10 Shimakaze torpedoes. 

 

- a 177 490  damage difference between a full broadside of shima torpedoes vs Gearing torpedoes. 

How in your right mind can you state that a 177 490k damage difference in torpedo broadside is "not that far behind" ? 

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6 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

The hyperbole is claiming that guns with half the rate of fire, all other stats being the same, are "just as good" despite their obvious drawback.

 

You're going to bring up the arcs, which does nothing to help the IJN at the ranges they get detected by other destroyers at-- especially USN with similar detection ranges who hold all the advantages at close range.

You know whats really funny though?  When you kite, as you should be in an IJN DD unless they are low, you can trade evenly or even out gun those gun boat DDs. Thanks to your better arcs, and if they are chasing, better flight time, you can hit them more than they can hit you.   This gives you more effective DPM.  the whole IJN guns are garbage is just pure hyperbole.  Learn to fight where they are strong and stop expecting them to be good in every situation.   US DDs are only good at under 7km, and even at 7km at a target running away the shells are floaty.  RU DDs cant keep their guns on target in CQC if they are constantly wiggling.  They are however better at the long rangers, with the better flight time and where turrets can more easily keep up.

 

you can either outspot US Dds or only be spotted when they see you.  Pre planning, educated guessing where they are, and proper captain skills will keep you from being suprised by them more often than not.  Catch them at the right time where you are running away  and you can do a lot of damage before they get away.  I am tired of seeing IJN DDs captains living in the fantasy land where they don't have guns or their guns are pure garbage.  I have over 80 games in ranked(DD heavy ranked) alone with the kag, and i have no issue fighting other DDs.   Most of the damage i do in a match is vs DDs. 

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And when you turn to kite and use your rear gun advantage, they go dark until they can catch you mid-turn at 6km again and chew off another third of your health in the time it takes you to 1) Turn to present rear guns and 2) get rear guns on target.

 

Assuming they don't just bait you into shooting once so their whole team can hammer you into oblivion with a bloom time that is, effectively, free 20 second 12km radar.

 

I've done this song and dance before.

 

EDIT: Ah, "bad" votes, the tool of people can only anonymously downvote it because they can't actually post a response to argue against it.

Edited by AraAragami
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1 hour ago, JackBinary said:

First and foremost, you only answered a single relevant question, and that irks me.

Secondly, in response to that specific question's answer, to quote the esteemed lawyer, Vinny Gambini: "Everything that man just said is bull****."

Seriously WG, you're making it increasingly obvious that you not only don't play your own game, you don't give a **** about those who do.

Japanese torpedoes are easily the easiest torpedoes to dodge. Sure, they're fast and hard hitting, but you have so much prior notice that the only time in recent history that I've died to Japanese torpedoes has been when I was sitting still in smoke, in an Akizuki (and we all know how fast and maneuverable that ship is!). And I'm not even a very good player in the first place!

Your player base has done the math ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13s6LtFslxFF_p7P7Yu671zlur8Gwc1niAN03wJnDj6U/pubhtml?gid=1887314214&single=true ) and high tier IJN torpedoes have reaction times slower than carrier based torpedoes. It's honestly sad that you claim that this is a "fair trade off."

Even if the torpedoes were balanced in their current state, even if it weren't the case that the community agrees that american and german destroyers are better torpedo boats than the IJN, Why the hell do we have to trade worse guns for on par torpedoes?

if the torpedoes are equal to their counterparts, why aren't the guns? Why is it that in almost every situation, if torpedo power were equal, an american or German destroyer would be better than a Japanese one, on the merit of gun DPM alone?

On the topic of DPM, why do Japanese torpedoes have over twice the rearm of German torpedoes, while their damage is only ~20% more?

 

TLDR:
Why do you insist that it's a "fair trade-off" to make Japanese torpedoes the easiest to dodge in the game, while at high tiers USN and German torpedoes aren't even that far behind in speed or damage?

Even if it were a "fair trade-off" why should they be worse in every other aspect?

I don't want half baked answers. I want to be told exactly why you think that the IJN DDs are in an acceptable state. I want to have every last detail explained to me, cause I'm not sure you understand it yourself.

You're the devs of this game, WG. Act like it.

Well written. Well organized. Up voted for truth even though it will certainly be ignored.

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image.png.53bd4e5aab82a192f890c3b8b9ab632a.png

 

I'm a computer engineering student, so I pride myself in showing my math, which is why I didn't only show my highlighted numbers, but all the numbers they're sourced from.

The highlighted rows are what make destroyers effective, in my opinion. Gun DPM, HP, and Turret rotation speed dictate the victor of a knife fight, while torpedo DPM dictates effectiveness against larger ships.

I would have preferred to multiply the torpedo DPM by the torpedo hitrate (since we all know that raw DPM is not actually indicative of torpedo performance, considering travel time to target, as well as detection range), but Warships today was down while I was writing this post, so you'll have to make due with an alternate formula of dividing the DPM by the reaction times provided in the link in the OP.

As you can clearly see, Shimakaze would lose to any other destroyer of it's tier in a gunfight. We all know this, and the math shows it.
Yet at the same time, other destroyers are more effective at taking down capital ships. While they lack the alpha, they have a much higher chance of hitting their target (just over half the reaction time).

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2 minutes ago, JackBinary said:

image.png.53bd4e5aab82a192f890c3b8b9ab632a.png

 

I'm a computer engineering student, so I pride myself in showing my math, which is why I didn't only show my highlighted numbers, but all the numbers they're sourced from.

The highlighted rows are what make destroyers effective, in my opinion. Gun DPM, HP, and Turret rotation speed dictate the victor of a knife fight, while torpedo DPM dictates effectiveness against larger ships.

I would have preferred to multiply the torpedo DPM by the torpedo hitrate (since we all know that raw DPM is not actually indicative of torpedo performance, considering travel time to target, as well as detection range), but Warships today was down while I was writing this post, so you'll have to make due with an alternate formula of dividing the DPM by the reaction times provided in the link in the OP.

As you can clearly see, Shimakaze would lose to any other destroyer of it's tier in a gunfight. We all know this, and the math shows it.
Yet at the same time, other destroyers are more effective at taking down capital ships. While they lack the alpha, they have a much higher chance of hitting their target (just over half the reaction time).

Exactly what I'm saying, but put in handy graph form. Thank you for your work.

 

Fact of the matter is the Japanese line is objectively worse. They are only "good" against bad players. Which is a pretty sure sign that the line is flawed and needs to be re-examined.

Edited by AraAragami

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2 minutes ago, JackBinary said:

image.png.53bd4e5aab82a192f890c3b8b9ab632a.png

 

I'm a computer engineering student, so I pride myself in showing my math, which is why I didn't only show my highlighted numbers, but all the numbers they're sourced from.

The highlighted rows are what make destroyers effective, in my opinion. Gun DPM, HP, and Turret rotation speed dictate the victor of a knife fight, while torpedo DPM dictates effectiveness against larger ships.

I would have preferred to multiply the torpedo DPM by the torpedo hitrate (since we all know that raw DPM is not actually indicative of torpedo performance, considering travel time to target, as well as detection range), but Warships today was down while I was writing this post, so you'll have to make due with an alternate formula of dividing the DPM by the reaction times provided in the link in the OP.

As you can clearly see, Shimakaze would lose to any other destroyer of it's tier in a gunfight. We all know this, and the math shows it.
Yet at the same time, other destroyers are more effective at taking down capital ships. While they lack the alpha, they have a much higher chance of hitting their target (just over half the reaction time).

The above. Nailed it.

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