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Dr_Venture

Italian Cruiser Line - Unicums only?

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I have come to a startling conclusion the other day whilst playing around with the Duca, and then watching videos on the Abruzzi. It sounds to me like that any further ships from the Italian cruiser line...will require an EXTREMELY HIGH skill ceiling to make effective. 

So I've had a very startling experience with the Duca as of late; she is a very hard ship to play. Your guns can seem very anemic and the fire chance is horrible. The armor is basically not there and the torpedoes move like a sloth crossing the highway:

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So I'm seeing cruisers with great arcs and very fast velocity, almost like guided missiles, but these ships require someone who knows how to aim. In my several games with the D'Aosta I've seen shells bounce and shatter left right and center...however once I looked at where ships had weaker armor, and calculated that into my aiming...I was noticing my damage was going up...way up...from 20k damage games to 80k to 90k plus!

From the looks of the evolution of the Italian cruisers, these ships will be very difficult for your average player at first until you learn where to aim with the guns, you go from small 152 guns like on the D'Aosta and Abruzzi to the 8 inch guns of the Trento/Zara and a great premium candidate, cruiser Bolzano. This depends on if the Italian line stays light cruiser or goes from CL to CA like the German/IJN line does.

TL/DR: This line is going to be very challenging, no HE spam or torps or gimmicks to fall back on: pure skill kids

Who else is having similar thoughts? Who else is looking forward to this challenge?

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I love my Duca, but it is unforgiving.  With a short 14km primary gun range, you unfortunately have to get in range of practically every other ship on the map to do damage.  Yes, there is a spotting plane, but I've noticed the Duca has a VERY high firing arc when using the spotter.  Its a very different aiming mechanic than any other ship I've used with a spotter.

The Duca requires you to constantly be moving, turning, changing speeds, using islands for cover and NEVER showing your broadside.

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10 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

Trento/Zara

the trento should be a "unique" ship she has a CL's hull with CA's guns not only that but the italian 8in guns should be one of the best performing guns of its size in the game as for the zara she should be a absolute tank of a CA having the same belt armor as the des moines and still being relatively fast at 34ish knots

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I got the Duca in a SC. It's a great ship.

I don't think it's going to require "unicum" levels of skill to make it work. Staying alive seems the be the key for me.

Also, it most definitely needs IFHE.

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Bolzana should be the premium heavy cruiser, only one of her was built and she seemed rather unique. 

If anything the line might take on a split, finish a light cruiser line...then hold over the savages with a unique heavy cruiser until the split comes into play. 

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23 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

So I'm seeing cruisers with great arcs and very fast velocity, almost like guided missiles, but these ships require someone who knows how to aim. In my several games with the D'Aosta I've seen shells bounce and shatter left right and center...however once I looked at where ships had weaker armor, and calculated that into my aiming...I was noticing my damage was going up...way up...from 20k damage games to 80k to 90k plus!

It doesn't take a unicum to recognize that most BBs have weak armor in the super structure, upper hull, and bow/stern areas of the boat and that's where you should be pumping AP shells at if they are giving you a broadside. CA/CL have thinner armor, so you can aim at waterline to get citadels. This is applicable on all cruisers; not just the Italian ones. 

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12 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

It doesn't take a unicum to recognize that most BBs have weak armor in the super structure, upper hull, and bow/stern areas of the boat and that's where you should be pumping AP shells at if they are giving you a broadside. CA/CL have thinner armor, so you can aim at waterline to get citadels. This is applicable on all cruisers; not just the Italian ones. 

I agree it doesn't take a unicum, but a vast majority of players who have guns of 152mm are spamming HE. You see this in the Russian line, and the French for that matter...however both of them have fantastic HE, it is a crutch that once used it becomes hard to get away from. Heck you see this with the Mogami's with the 155's...the AP is amazing but they use HE 9/10. I'm thinking once people get ahold of Italian light cruisers at large, they will struggle with them ALOT because HE cannot be used as a crutch and the RoF isn't as rapid. 

Mark my words people will scream for buffs and say the line is garbage. 

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This really isn't any different from the pre-buffed KM cruiser line, and your average joe pub player probably never knew that the KM cruisers got an HE pen buff. Line was fine before; line was fine after, not going to be any different for the Italian line.

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Duca is a meh tier 6 cruiser that needs 14 point captain to be somewhat competitive.  Does have some supporters, and have to say one of the prettiest belles at the ball, but once you peel away the makeup.... lots of warts.  Mine sits in port while more impactful tier 6 cruisers get taken out (Molotov, Leander, Spee, De Grasse, Perth, Cleveland).

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42 minutes ago, skull_122_steel said:

the trento should be a "unique" ship she has a CL's hull with CA's guns

Oh, you mean like Mogami? CL armor with 20.3cm guns?

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23 minutes ago, NCC81701 said:

This really isn't any different from the pre-buffed KM cruiser line, and your average joe pub player probably never knew that the KM cruisers got an HE pen buff. Line was fine before; line was fine after, not going to be any different for the Italian line.

Their HE was no where near as bad as the Italians though, and their AP is far better. 

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Instead of having CE or AFT for your 4th point on a 10 point commander, use IFHE...

Use DE for 3rd point.

She then turns into a monster.

She is heavy reliant on captain skills and proper module usage for a potato, like me, to get satisfactory results.

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51 minutes ago, skull_122_steel said:

the trento should be a "unique" ship she has a CL's hull with CA's guns

I hate to be that guy, but a cruiser is defined as a CA or CL entirely off of gun caliber.  I get what you are trying to say, but the moment a cruiser gets 203mm guns it becomes a heavy cruiser.  There are already several examples of very thinly armored CAs in game, perhaps the Pensacola being the most infamous example.  

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The line will hopefully be pretty decent. Wargaming has essentially signaled very clearly that the line is going to be CA heavy: they've just take the lead ships of Italy's two best CL classes as premiums, and Garibaldi isn't coming apparently.

 

Abruzzi is a casualty of d'Aosta's placement. She should've been tier VI, but WG won't double up on light cruiser premiums at the same tier for the same nation. Granted, d'Aosta should've been tier V, but she overperforms compared to her historical self so WG can hit tier VI with her. However, she was able to get away with her overtiering. Abruzzi does not. Her AP becomes weaker, and her HE is too weak at this tier. Plus her belt in compromised because WG won't model decapping, and yet won't give it a solid 130mm belt either.

 

Most likely we'll get a line that gets up to Montecuccoli at tier V (faster, but lighter and less well armored d'Aosta, probably with weaker guns in either AP performance or RoF), and then directly to Trento at tier VI for the CA line to start. You'll be seeing 203mm gun ships up to tier IX, tier X either being a WG fiction ship with 8" guns or the biggest gun tier X cruiser we've seen yet, a 37-knot 22000 ton (standard displacement) design with it's main armament centered around a 3x3 battery of 254mm/55's.

 

The focus of Italian cruisers will be AP performance, speed, handling, concealment, high muzzle velocity, and strong armor at high tiers at the cost of unexceptional HE (should be the same as USN 8" HE, in damage and fire chance), unimpressive range (compared to their continental counterparts, a casualty of their concealment), and probably 'meh' AA firepower. Torpedoes will probably remain an afterthought. The first two CA's will be pretty linear and similar, carrying a playstyle from Montecuccoli: high speed and poor armor, both only having a 70mm belt, but being fast at 35 and 36 knots respectively (Bolzano was the fastest heavy cruiser ever built). Zara would be a big change as your speed drops (highest service speed recorded for Zara was 34 knots) but you gain heavy amounts of armor, which remains as you got even higher tiers where the heavy armor stays or increases, as well was top speed increasing (37 knots for everything past Zara).

 

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20 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

The line will hopefully be pretty decent. Wargaming has essentially signaled very clearly that the line is going to be CA heavy: they've just take the lead ships of Italy's two best CL classes as premiums, and Garibaldi isn't coming apparently.

 

Abruzzi is a casualty of d'Aosta's placement. She should've been tier VI, but WG won't double up on light cruiser premiums at the same tier for the same nation. Granted, d'Aosta should've been tier V, but she overperforms compared to her historical self so WG can hit tier VI with her. However, she was able to get away with her overtiering. Abruzzi does not. Her AP becomes weaker, and her HE is too weak at this tier. Plus her belt in compromised because WG won't model decapping, and yet won't give it a solid 130mm belt either.

 

Most likely we'll get a line that gets up to Montecuccoli at tier V (faster, but lighter and less well armored d'Aosta, probably with weaker guns in either AP performance or RoF), and then directly to Trento at tier VI for the CA line to start. You'll be seeing 203mm gun ships up to tier IX, tier X either being a WG fiction ship with 8" guns or the biggest gun tier X cruiser we've seen yet, a 37-knot 22000 ton (standard displacement) design with it's main armament centered around a 3x3 battery of 254mm/55's.

 

The focus of Italian cruisers will be AP performance, speed, handling, concealment, high muzzle velocity, and strong armor at high tiers at the cost of unexceptional HE (should be the same as USN 8" HE, in damage and fire chance), unimpressive range (compared to their continental counterparts, a casualty of their concealment), and probably 'meh' AA firepower. Torpedoes will probably remain an afterthought. The first two CA's will be pretty linear and similar, carrying a playstyle from Montecuccoli: high speed and poor armor, both only having a 70mm belt, but being fast at 35 and 36 knots respectively (Bolzano was the fastest heavy cruiser ever built). Zara would be a big change as your speed drops (highest service speed recorded for Zara was 34 knots) but you gain heavy amounts of armor, which remains as you got even higher tiers where the heavy armor stays or increases, as well was top speed increasing (37 knots for everything past Zara).

 

I'd love to see a 4 x triple 8 inch gun mounts for the Tier 10 like we do for Hindy and Zao.

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2 hours ago, yashma said:

I hate to be that guy, but a cruiser is defined as a CA or CL entirely off of gun caliber.  I get what you are trying to say, but the moment a cruiser gets 203mm guns it becomes a heavy cruiser.  There are already several examples of very thinly armored CAs in game, perhaps the Pensacola being the most infamous example.  

Ohh I know that but the trento has the same speed, armor, and size as the duca D'Aosta hull

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28 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

The line will hopefully be pretty decent. Wargaming has essentially signaled very clearly that the line is going to be CA heavy: they've just take the lead ships of Italy's two best CL classes as premiums, and Garibaldi isn't coming apparently.

 

Abruzzi is a casualty of d'Aosta's placement. She should've been tier VI, but WG won't double up on light cruiser premiums at the same tier for the same nation. Granted, d'Aosta should've been tier V, but she overperforms compared to her historical self so WG can hit tier VI with her. However, she was able to get away with her overtiering. Abruzzi does not. Her AP becomes weaker, and her HE is too weak at this tier. Plus her belt in compromised because WG won't model decapping, and yet won't give it a solid 130mm belt either.

 

Most likely we'll get a line that gets up to Montecuccoli at tier V (faster, but lighter and less well armored d'Aosta, probably with weaker guns in either AP performance or RoF), and then directly to Trento at tier VI for the CA line to start. You'll be seeing 203mm gun ships up to tier IX, tier X either being a WG fiction ship with 8" guns or the biggest gun tier X cruiser we've seen yet, a 37-knot 22000 ton (standard displacement) design with it's main armament centered around a 3x3 battery of 254mm/55's.

 

The focus of Italian cruisers will be AP performance, speed, handling, concealment, high muzzle velocity, and strong armor at high tiers at the cost of unexceptional HE (should be the same as USN 8" HE, in damage and fire chance), unimpressive range (compared to their continental counterparts, a casualty of their concealment), and probably 'meh' AA firepower. Torpedoes will probably remain an afterthought. The first two CA's will be pretty linear and similar, carrying a playstyle from Montecuccoli: high speed and poor armor, both only having a 70mm belt, but being fast at 35 and 36 knots respectively (Bolzano was the fastest heavy cruiser ever built). Zara would be a big change as your speed drops (highest service speed recorded for Zara was 34 knots) but you gain heavy amounts of armor, which remains as you got even higher tiers where the heavy armor stays or increases, as well was top speed increasing (37 knots for everything past Zara).

 

hopefully you are right because I am so hyped for the italian tech tree to finally get some free ships

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1 hour ago, skull_122_steel said:

hopefully you are right because I am so hyped for the italian tech tree to finally get some free ships

You and me both, I want a line to requires a high degree of skill to advance down. 

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5 hours ago, yashma said:

I hate to be that guy, but a cruiser is defined as a CA or CL entirely off of gun caliber.  I get what you are trying to say, but the moment a cruiser gets 203mm guns it becomes a heavy cruiser.  There are already several examples of very thinly armored CAs in game, perhaps the Pensacola being the most infamous example.  

What this guy said. The hull/ armor or lack of isn't even a factor by USN doctrine.

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When i see duca, my urge to get close and release the torp near it getting higher. Hahaha.. 

 

 

I dont play crap ships so i dont get frustrated and risk having heart problem.

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Duca d'Aosta is one of my favorite ships to play.  I don't confuse that with her being good, even though I do well with her comparatively.  It's difficult to say she's over tiered though, because she has average performance.  That's not /my/ performance, but overall, she's a middle of the pack performer.  I see her as being a very skill dependent ship.  I don't have a problem with highly skill dependent ships, especially premiums.  That said, those highly skill dependant ships should /never/ be the first ship in a nation's line.  Average players from smaller markets should be able to get ships from their nation when added that they can enjoy.  I /wish/ Duca d'Aosta had been tier 5, OR Cesare would have come first.

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It needs a little range buff. Armor doesn't even matter for cruisers at that tier and arguably most at any tier.

Edit: Turn radius and concealment could use a little help as well.

 

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25 minutes ago, goldeagle1123 said:

If "high skill floor" is just code for "garbage ship that only good players can perform well in consistently" then yes.

Not necessarily, Hindenburg has a high skill floor but the only thing it is the best at is brawling. It has decent RoF, decent range, decent torps, high alpha low pen AP and high pen low alpha HE. As well as excellent armor for a cruiser. But anybody that plays Hindenburg like Des Moines will not have fun on the ship.

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